Mark777

Hi, I was asked to post this on the Luke 14:26 thread - post #55. It is an explanation of the trinity that I came up with for a dear little Jehovah's Witness man. Even though infinity cannot be experienced, I believe God has given us a good explanation in nature of the trinity. Here is my example from that thread. I hope it helps. ----------------------------- My JW gave me a pamphlet about the trinity. I read in it that they claimed the trinity was nonsense and illogical - that it wasn

Moses!

st. worm, Please reconsider. This will be my last post on this thread. I think it should end for the previously stated reasons. I was hoping that children of God would find it within themselves to love at least each other. So what that we disagee. In the final analysis we should surrender our egos long enough to forgive and act like Christ would have us act. Lets do it. st. Worm - I wish I new your real first name - lets here your position before we go. Mark

Well, Its obvious people are still interested in repeating themselves. Thank you Butero for giving us a fine overview of your position. I would like to ask anyone interested in doing the same as 2thepoint and Butero to do so. If you feel that anything has not been covered. I have asked Eric to lock it after everyone is finish. He responded that everyone needed to agree. So, after all has been posted if anyone disagrees with locking it please say so. My reason for wanting it done is that I cannot think of anything that has not been worked over many times. We are only breeding negativity now. We are soiling our efforts by pooping on one another. We all have had some good writing here and we should end it respectfully and as brothers and sisters in Christ. Let new people read a complete and respectfull account. Maybe, they will see where we went wrong!! And start a fresh thread. Mark

Hey st. Worm, If you are interested, give us you final detailed word on the matter, Please! Horizon, You know I did not mean it was a game. I love talking about Christ. Mark

Well, Horizon - get SW to do it. I picked smalcald because I think he has a methodical mind and is generally calm - attributes that lend to good clear writing. This was fun, you know! Mark

Yes, Moses was a spirit not raised physically yet and Elijah never died. Mark

90 pages - WOW I have a suggestion, actually Butero saw it pages ago. I suggest that we end this puppy. Each side should pick a poster to write a summation of its beliefs. We will post them and love one another as Christ asked us to. I see three sides: OSAS, Losing salvation and regaining it again, and being able to deciding to walk away from Christ. For our side I think 2thepoint is the most eloquent. I would suggest Smalcald and Butero for the other two positions. I think this has gone on long enough for us. Maybe others will come along in time and take it up afresh and have something new to say. For my part, I want to ask st. worm and horizoneast to forgive my passion. Lets be the brothers Christ meant us to be. For Butero, I disagree with you but highly respect your manner and intellect. Cardcaptor is great in my eyes because he goes to the Scripture. I want to thank everyone that interacted with me here. Mark (OSAS rules!!! LOL!)

Butero, I would like to pursue this with you, but can I have a rain check until tonight? It is becoming very interesting but I teach on Saturdays and need to run. I wil be back this evening if you have some time. About willfully sinning - I guess that I believe all sin is willfull. Maybe we can start out later with the difference. Mark

Authur, you're a card. I like a humorous approach to serous matters. It takes the meanness out of it - for me. Mark

Butero, I did not say that we could not sin but that the use of a will would be altered by new facilities. How would our new nature and the indwelling of God's very Spirit add to the resources of our will? Mark

No, I believe that I sin all the time but that it is all paid for. I also believe that God has caused a process of sanctification in order that I might willfully exercise my new nature. I willfully sin all the time and so does every Christian. But the Holy Spirit is in me convicting me of my flesh and talking to my new man telling it what to do. And it says, "I am sorry Lord please help me fight the good fight.' And the Fathers says, "DONE, SON." Mark

Butero, Can you see, at least, that our supposed free will has been altered by the obtaining of a new nature that is righteous? And that after salvation we obtain the actual presence of God indwelling us? Those are powerful changes. Mark

Butero, I guess that is our major sticking point. I do not believe we naturally have free will. I think the Scriptures teach that we are enslaved to sin - thus the need of a savior. We couldn't do it ourselves. And after salvation we are slaves to righeousness because our new nature is righteous and our old nature is dying. Our new man is eternal and powerful in the Holy Spirit and our old man is powerless and whithering - soon to die. Mark

st.Worm, "I have done nothing wrong" (As he throws a stone and hides his hand.)

HHHHorizon, "Contrary to those who would tickle your ears, the Book teaches that God does promise eternal security, but He does not promise

The Spirit was not given generally then. And the Spirit didn't come upon him to seal him for salvation but to annoint him for a purpose.

2thepoint Here, it is only Horizon and st. Worm that constantly insult whoever disagrees with them. Butero and smalcald are of the same persuasion but don't seem to need to do so. I guess they feel more secure in what they think. Butero, About Peter, God holds us, we do not hold ourselves. Sanctification is a process . Satan was asking to rough Peter up. notice that JESUS was the agent of security. And the Greek construction is referring to being reverted back to faithfulness. You know Butero, your faith can fail do to sickness, emotional trauma, and sin. It is temporary. It isn't a loss of salvation - which is a free gift. Faith is a gift too and it grows with use. Peters faith was much stronger after his sifting. God upholds us and renews us. You would be right if we were stuck out here all by ourselves but that isn't the case. We have the almighty God living in us and teaching us. He wishes for us to exercise our faith and sometimes we hit low places but He is there in the valley of the shadow of death walking with us every step of the way - even if we don't see it. Mark

Horizion, Sorry for being irritated at you. Instead, let me ask you frankly: When you asked me the questions you have asked in you last few posts have you forgotten that I have answered them before? It is ok to not like my answers but your comments should relect that you thought about what i have said and move on from there. If you just repeat yourself, there isn't much use for that. I would like this conversation to move forward. There are places yet to go to. Mark

Horizion: "Does the Bible anywhere teach that is it possible for a man to be saved if he dies in his sin..." No, His sin is paid for already. All Christians have sin. If it were like you say all Christians would die unsaved, I guess. This sentence was a little strange - maybe I misunderstood what you want here.

Sin is completely paid for and applied to those that accept Christ. It is God's work to sanctify the believer and he does to His satisfaction. And I would like it if you would quit your infantile insistence that I don't answer your questions - like I am shivering in my boots at having to answer you! I answer you - you just don't like my answers.

No, I love this, what is diminished is you faith in the power of the Holy Spirit to keep you. And what you so willfully forget to include in your thinking is that we have repeatedly answer all of this and you never respond further. You just repeat the same thing. No matter how many times people tell you that OSAS believes that believers can fall into sin and be punished by God - even to death, it never enters your efforts when battling the doctrine. Try respecting others enough to listen and at least change your questioning to reflect that you have considered their thoughts. Mark

I do not think my comment demeaned anyone's faith - it is the lack of faith in the power of God to keep you that is the problem. I know you need to demonize the opposition but I am not going to play with you. I just made the observation that it is OSAS that leans on the complete power of God to sustain and deliver us. While it is people like you that are arrogant enough to think you can move your own salvation by your own efforts and whims. All of the supposed warnings you keep harping about have been explained - you hold on to them because they are your only theological hope in a sea of Scripture that clearly says otherwise. Mark

New Pilgrim, Sometime, the people that oppose OSAS, are going to have to acknowledge that the adherents to OSAS believe the most in the power of God instead of the power of the individual to "carry on". We are the ones who are counting on His power and abilities. Even if someone just believes that one can walk away - does a person just decide one day to check out of eternal life? No, if such a thing was possible it would be the ending of a process of becoming faithless and sinful. My question is: where is the Holy Spirit that was supposed to seal and keep us. Where are the assurances of eternal life, where is Christ's words that He wouldn't lose one of us. I know I repeat myself but it is because no one answers. The Scriptures say that we are born again of incorruptible seed but there are people here that believe it can be corrupted. Jesus said that if we hear Him and believe we then have eternal life and would never die. But, there are people here who do not believe it. The Bible is clear. We are nothing. We are unable to do anything of ourselves. Chirst furnishes everything. We will not be lost . God wouldn't allow it. He came and died for us and does all the other things that I keep mentioning and then He is just going to stand around and let us lose ourselves? I do not think so......We were sinner when He died for us - what will He do now that we are His children! Mark

For the beloved Cardcaptor: CC verses: 2Cr 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. [This does not mean we are saved or kept by works! The NASV says,