Mark777

Butero, Thank you for your thoughtful response. It is a breath of fresh air to discuss this without bitterness. If you are interested can I ask you your interpretation of several passages. I just want to hear a response from someone who believes differently. 1. How do you interpret the many verses in John where Jesus says that if you accept him He will give you eternal life? Like John 3:16- there are , I think 16 different instances in John where Jesus says that believers will live forever, have eternal life, will never die, will never perish etc...? 2. How do you interpret 1 Peter 1:23 that says we are born again of imperishable seed? In Greek it has the meaning of not being able to be corrupted. How can something that cannot be corrupted be corrupted? 3. How can a free gift have conditions attatched to it? Salvation is the free gift of God. All you have to do is believe to receive eternal life in Christ. 4. When Jesus said that it was God's will that He would lose nothing but raise it up on the last day - how could anyone be lost and that not make Jesus to be wrong or not fulfill God's will? -------------- I think that people who do not believe in OSAS do not appreciate the work of the Holy Spirit in us after salvation. We are nothing. Christ came and died for us because we were unable to do anything ourselves. What we have after salvation comes from God. Why would God leave sinners alone to battle things out for themselves? And if this isn't the case, and the Holy Spirit aids the believer - wouldn't He be a failure if He didn't succeed in delivering all believer to God - when it is the fathers will that none should be lost? Thanks ahead of time, Mark

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Hey, Openly The ship is owned by God and I think He knows how to take care of it. Mark edit: See you people tomorrow. In Christ's love have a good night, Mark

Hmmm Horizion, I just looked at Webster's online and you seemed to have left out the first definition: 1. The wreck of a ship or its parts. Talk about desperate! Shhhheeesshhh! Mark

hr jr, I know , I was asking to cause conversation. Mark

Hi openly, I generally agree with you except the text does say that we are slaves to righteousness because there is no other alternative that will last for the believer. Sin has been defeated ultimately. It may have a place in our flesh but it can be subdued and when we die it will cease to exist in us. So, we are a slave to righteousness in the respect that there is nothing else and that our nature wants to do righteousness in the same way our flesh wants to sin. How about those apples? Mark

Hi Horizion, No you are not clear at all . A ship wreck can have different levels of damage. A ship can wreck by running up on the rocks. It can run aground. It can be a total wreck but everyone survive - like Paul's. It does say what you suggest that it says. You can find someone to say anything you wish - but does it stand up to scrutiny? In this case you are incorrect. Paul is talking about the damage to ones walk nothing more. It says nothing about salvation. Mark

Hey Openly, Let me give you something to think about. Christ came because we were lost to sin. We could not save ourselves through good works. That to me is not freedom but slavery. After Christ came, and if we have accepted Christ, the Bible says that we are slaves to righteousness. We are free from sin but slaves to righteousness in that we have done away with the other alternative sin. So, if we have free will - what is the choice that we are free to make? We cannot freely come to Christ - the Bible says the Father has to draw us to Him. We cannot lose our salvation because it is said to be eternal. We cannot be righteous in ourselves because we have a sin nature. we cannot be corrupted after salvation because the Bible says we are incorruptible. What place does choice have in it? Mark

Horizion, The trouble with you is that you furnish your own definitions for things regardless of what it might really be. For instance, "Shipwrecked" doesn't necessarily have to mean damnation. Paul suvived his shipwreck. Believers can become faithless but God will not allow it to stand. Even though we are faithless He is faithful... You are wrong about the use of the word "if". I furnished a sentence so you could see how it is used unconditional but is used to describe a condition. That is also an example of how you try to force things into this strict little bundle you are selling. You pick on these things but never answer the myriad of clear verses that I have brought up that say once you believe you have eternal life, and that when that happenes you are born again of incorruptible, unperishable seed, etc....So try responding with a little respect, instead of the disrespect you usually hand me, and I will answer you in a more complete way. For instance, I have talked to you alot about the things you bring up but you have hardly done the same. Try doing that for a few............ Mark

Martin Luther; "...and that a Christian man needs no work, no law, for his salvation; for by faith he is free from all law, and in perfect freedom does gratuitously all that he does, seeking nothing either of profit or of salvation--since by the grace of God he is already saved and rich in all things through his faith--but solely that which is well-pleasing to God." Luther is saying that for a Christian salvation isn't an issue any more. He is free of law. He doesn't "need" to work. Works flow out of His new nature that loves to please God. That is how Luther is saying here that salvation cannot be lost. He is describing the new man. Eternal Salvation has been obtained. Now the spirit of a righteous nature acts out its sanctification in joy. " How would falling into apostacy work? The same laws that govern sin in the flesh cover spiritual sin. A believer is free from the condemnation of sin. It has been paid for by Christ. But, I ask - where is God in all of this? I will tell you where. He is in the believer, changing him, keeping him in His grace. God is talking to his spirit and empowering him to do righteousness. He has promised us that he will keep us and deliver us to Himself. More later. Mark

kjw47, I agree but would add - "you will know them by their fruit." Mark

Butero, I hope you do not mind me responding to you point by point. I think what you have brought up is important. I am sorry that I missed your post also in the fray. Butero:

st. Worm, Lets calm down and not start the insults here OK. There is no reason for us to make comments like, "But I guess you know more about Luther than Luther himself?" I could easily comment back "no, I just know luther better than you." Lets stop this form of communication. I believe you are my brother in Christ so I am going to make the commitment to stop talking in an unloving manner. I believe differently than you and I am going to communicate the details of my belief. Beyond that, I will not respond to insulting statements. The last thread I started was closed due to the passions and insults of other participants. Please respect this thread and lets have a good discussion. I will return in a day and work on this thread. I have some good material to look at. Mark

Horizion, If a car is on it makes noise. (usually.) If someone is saved the y abide in me. Your grammer is wrong. You are purposely limiting "if" to mean "if you keep abiding". You are wrong. Mark

Smalcald, I can only refer to Scripture and my personal experience. I have already appealed to Scripture so I will answer you with what I know personally. God saved me while I was running the other direction. My experience changed me. I was not the same afterwards. I didn't understand all that my change entailed or of the complete power in Christ that had been given to meat first. There is no way that I could deny Christ - if I fall into sin my mind would say, "I am a sinner Lord, forgive me." I could never say God was a phase. I have met Him. He has indwelt me. His spirit talks to me daily. I cannot deny His presence in me. Why would I reject Him? For what. The World? My goodness no, a thousand times no! I have been empowered by Him. I am free!! I can see myself from a lofty postion -that of Christ Himself. My old man is like a withering shell - I find it odious! My spirit longs for Christ and hates my flesh and its sin. What did Paul say, ".who will free me from the body of this death?" I will repeat this endlessly: When one comes to Christ, they are changed. You do not belong to yourself - you have been bought with a price. You are His. And your new nature says, "AMEN, I AM HIS!" People who listen to the word and accept it intellectually may go for some time enjoying the morality of it all. But then they turn and deny it - because it goes against the lusts of their flesh. The flesh glorifies itself - the spirit glorifies God. It cannot turn because it was born of God and is indwelt by God and kept by God. After true salvation WE ARE NOT THE SAME! Smalcald, thanks for actually talking to me instead of at me. Mark

It may be over for you but it is just starting for me. Your reading of Luther is minimal. Luther is saying that all that the Galatians have obtained and done is meaningless in the light of justification by the law. You do the same with Scripture. You do not consider all the things he says. One moment you say, "Hey ,they are flamboyant speakers." Then you forget about it. Luther is exaggerating for the purpose of making the point that maintaining salvation by works is against salvation by grace. As we will see in the other thread that I started, Luther fully believed that the new man is eternal and incorruptible. In the quote in question, he does not say that they had lost their salvation but the effects of the work they had done and the things they had suffered. "Even though we are faithless He is faithfull' - "I will lose nothing." Mark

st Worm, You fail to show that Luther is talking about eternal salvation and the new man. I have shown though thta He believed that the new man is eternal and want of nothing. Mark

Butero, The Scriptures are clear: before salvation you are a slave to sin. After salvation you are a slave to righteousness. It is God, when He indwells you, He makes you different. A new creation that's nature wants to please God. You cannot, if you are a true believe, deny God. It is impossible. It would be like denying the sun. You can, but what difference would that make. It is God who holds us not the other way around. The Scriptures say that we are His workmanship - it is Christ who live in and through us. Butero, I submit that if someone says they used to be a believer but believe no longer - that their belief was based on something other than an experience with God himself. Meeting God changes the person. Mark

Butero True Christians are indwelt and have a relationship with God - That is better than the analogyof your mother. People who have met you cannot deny you. When you meet God it is because He wanted to meet you and what happens then is more than when you meet a person. You cannot deny your mother - how much more can you not deny an infinite loving God when He presents Himself to your heart? Mark

OK people, I thought that I would start a thread that solely concentrates on Martin Luther and what he had to say about the nature of salvation and the Christian life. Please include anything of interest yourselves and lets not be mean to one another, but loving. My First Quote is for "Christian Liberty" by Martin Luther: " Let us examine the subject on a deeper and less simple principle. Man is composed of a twofold nature, a spiritual and a bodily. As regards the spiritual nature, which they name the soul, he is called the spiritual, inward, new man; as regards the bodily nature, which they name the flesh, he is called the fleshly, outward, old man. The Apostle speaks of this: "Though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day" (2 Cor. iv. 16). The result of this diversity is that in the Scriptures opposing statements are made concerning the same man, the fact being that in the same man these two men are opposed to one another; the flesh lusting against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh (Gal. v. 17). ------------------- I believe the so called "warning" passages - if they pertain to true believers - are referring to the old man - the flesh that is sinfull and is going to die. While the new man is eternal and incorruptible. Martin Luther, as I will show in time, believed the same. (I will add to this as time allows but feel free to add also.) Mark

Butero, Can you stop believing in your Mother? Mark

Shelak, What bothers me is the emersion part. Maybe, he is referring to the Holy Spirit? Mark

st. Worm, Your response is a good example of imposing your own agenda on another man's work. Luther is clear - there is no issue for a saved man. He gladly does that which pleases God because that is his new nature. A nature that is eternal without end that cannot perish and is incorruptible. Besides, you have been bought out of the world of sin. You do not belong to yourself. You are God's property. You can't get up and leave if you wanted to because you are His. But that is impossible anyway. As Luther has said, our new nature is about pleasing God and that is all it wants to do. Mark

Horizion, Sorry I missed your last post. Which was funny. I don't think it does you much good trying to bully people. I did not avoid answering you - I straightened out your silliness. If a person keeps Jesus' words - that you need to believe in Him - that person will never die. What is responsible for a person believing. Well, GOD!! Is that clear enough. Like you can't read Scripture yourself. No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws them. It is the fruit of salvation that the person saved abides in Christ's words. You are needlessly trying to battle with English construction. "If" doesn't mean that the person is responsible but "When" a person abides they will not die. Because abiding happens because of God not because of man. Mark

Martin Luther: "...and that a Christian man needs no work, no law, for his salvation; for by faith he is free from all law, and in perfect freedom does gratuitously all that he does, seeking nothing either of profit or of salvation--since by the grace of God he is already saved and rich in all things through his faith--but solely that which is well-pleasing to God." You have to do a lot of twisting to avoid passages like this and his writings are full of them. I think I will start a thread posting them for any commentary you guys might want to give. I will start it in a day or so. Must gather material....O BOY O BOY!!! Anyone who wishes to pursue Luther's beliefs can go there. Mark