red77

I have a problem with the idea; the Bible is the true, unadulterated Word of the living God and to say that the story of Adam and Eve is allegorical or false is calling God a liar. The Bible also says that in 6 days God created the earth, not 6 periods of time, but in 6 days. Really shoots the idea of evolution in the foot IMO. Yes, I know that those who believe in evolution and/or are atheists will chide me for not accepting what science has to say, etc. but I will take the Bible first and science second when the two disagree! Also, if I might add a thought, people keep referring to the Catholic church and what they believed about the sun revolving the earth, etc. First off, proving the world was round and that it revolved around the sun holds nothing contradictory toward the Bible; as a matter of fact, someone showed me a verse once that seemed to say the earth revolved around the sun. Second of all, I'm not Catholic and what they supported doesn't mean a hill of beans to me! But there's a lot of allegorical scripture in the bible too isnt there? Its impossible to read the whole book literally otherwise parts of it would not make sense.......revelation for a case in point.................

Are you denying that you are absolutely an atheist? I'm not denying that I absolutely believe the Word of God. The only difference is that I am not here trying to disprove your Faith in science. Yet you are here trying to disprove my Faith and others in God. God has so Humbled me my friend, yet I recognize the mode of operation when I see it. Allow me to correct you, It's not my Truth it's Gods Truth and it isn't relative nor open for debate as far as He is concerned. God did not design evolution despite the claims of the Catholic Church. As well as the entire collection of Darwinian Scientists. Here's the Truth and mind you it is Gods Word not mine; Ge

Er................I know the bible speaks about salvation.........there's a whole list of verses in the OP that state just that, now that I see it the verse in Ephesians speaks about what God had 'planned' as well from the long ages ago.......but can you explain how the verses in the OP tie in with ther being no salvation in the fullness of time for all..........? Personally I do not see any need to go further in this discussion. I have shown you what the bible says, there is no doubt in my mind that the bible tells us plainly that there is a heaven and hell, and that they both are forever. Those sent there will be there. I see plainly in the bible that we must Ask for salvation. As for the question you have asked me to answer, I am not ashamed to say I do not even understand it. The bible in my eyes as well as many others is God's word and his instruction for our lives. I am put on this earth so that I can spread his word, as well as everyone else. We are in the Lord's Army, and that Army's Sheild is the Lord God Himself! His word, and if we cannot take that litterally then we are doing the army injustice. I praise GOd for his word, and sending his son to die for our sins. I just pray that everyone can learn to accept this, and ask God to for forgiveness of their sins and repent and submit their selves to him. We are to surrender all. May the rest of the time you are on this thread be thinking about what the bible says on this very subject. You dont understand the question? I'm sorry I thought it was pretty clear really........all these verses indicate that God will not torment people for eternity but forgive and reconcile them to himself........or do they not? I'm afraid all you've shown me are various verses that contain the word 'hell' without actually any definition of what it actually is, no explanation of why its thrown into the lake of fire, what the lake of fire is etc..............I've answered them along with the rich man/Lazarus story unless you somehow still read that literally................. I've shown you what the bible has to say on the subject here.........you obviously just do not have an answer for these verses which refute your literal belief in an eternal hell.........I'm sorry if you're unable to provide a concise truth of just what eactly hell is or the lake of fire but that really isn't my problem, its pretty clear just going by these verses in the Bible that the vile and warped doctrine of eternal suffering for people does not hold truth......... As for your last sentence may the same go for you........its actually the Bible that speaks of God's mercy, the very last two verses seem extremely clear on that point! Peace Red

Er................I know the bible speaks about salvation.........there's a whole list of verses in the OP that state just that, now that I see it the verse in Ephesians speaks about what God had 'planned' as well from the long ages ago.......but can you explain how the verses in the OP tie in with ther being no salvation in the fullness of time for all..........?

Hi Anika, no apologies necessary, i didnt feel talked down to I am aware of the history and I can see the point you're making........but if i can put it this way, yes, Paul was speaking to a church.....but with any sermon I think there are general points made and ones directed at those within a church, so the first sentence is saying an absolute, its not directed at the church members but rather saying what the will or God's pleasure is going to be.....then its directed personally at the church and their part in the reconcilliation and the divine plan so to speak.....I hope that makes sense, I just know that with sermons I've attended there will have been parts said that would Glorify God and his plan and then what would be required of us within the church...... Also when it says 'if' its to appear holy and blameless......it doesnt say that if any strayed they would be condemned to hell and not reconciled to God

The important word here though is 'all'.......and many verses dont imply any action on our part to be 'saved' in the long run......that doesnt mean to say that its all going to be rose garden for everyone either......just because I dont believe in an eternal hell does not mean that there wont be punishment for people either, but it will be done for correction as well as chastisement IMO and thats what punishment is there for, torturing for eternity constitutes nothing short of barbarism and ceases to fall under the term 'punishment' for at least that reason...... I'd say this to you and others here too, how can eternal punishment exist when taking the last two verses of my OP into account...........?? We might need saving but not from eternal hell, rather from the misery we have and from ourselves with sin.......

To say to anyone they're unfit for the kingdom of God is not your decision to make, i dont appreciate your constant judging and that is quite frankly over the line, God will be the judge of whether I'm right or not.....not you........if you can answer the original question go ahead, if not I'd appreciate it if you can keep the judgemental and groundless assumptions about me to yourself thanks regards Red

Ben, it is starting to get a bit tiresome where you continually question my faith and the strength of it.........I have answered these points before and I do not cast aspersions on the strength of yours so please afford me the same courtesy.......thanks......this thread was for people to answer the verses mentioned and how they indicate the salvation of all men, I will answer some of your points which you've raised but I would ask you to do the same with the original question otherwise there's not much point in responding to it to be honest........ Why share faith with people? Why do you do it now? Purely because of your belief in eternal torturing? I've already answered this but is it not enough to share and bring hope to people who are lost in this life and who suffer? Is it not enough to share the richness you'll have in your own life with other people? To bring hope to others and their loved ones and families that there's a God who loves them beyond compare? It would be enough for me! Its not about a race....!! if you wouldnt feel the need to share the peace and love within you with other people then would that not be selfish? And if we're told to love our fellow man like ourselves then selfishness shouldnt even be apparent........... You use the verse in Tim for especially of those that believe.....yes, i agree with you that times could be hard but maybe thats why the 'especially' bit is used there.......those who are persecuted will receive their just reward wont they? the way I see it anyone who lives by faith enough to die for someone will receive greater reward than one who does the killing, its logic apart from anything else and justice will be fair, those who kill will answer for the crime, just not eternally..... And as the verse says God is the saviour of all men especially of those who believe, I notice you aren't trying to say that it means otherwise.......if you do think it doesnt encompass all men then please explain along with the other verses I've posted regards Red

Well, the first verse would mean we're all condemned until we believe, if you take it to mean condemned to an eternal fiery pit or eternal torture then I would have to say I dont, it doesnt say condemned to anything in this verse, I'd see it as not having life within and the emptiness that that can bring, one day all will believe so are they still condemned? I dont think so, 'hell' exists in so many areas of this life but to think that condemnation means a literal torture pit is pure speculation and interpretation....i'll concede that my own take isn't rooted in fact but the fact that the Bible says that God will not cast off forever and will not retain his anger pretty clearly refutes the condemnation of eternal torment People will die without having believed I think, noone knows what the last thought a person will have so who knows? But if people do die without belief then they could be said to die in their sins, that doesnt mean that they cant be forgiven and reconciled back to God unless you believe that this physicalplane is the only chance you have to be 'saved' and then its hell or whatever.......but again the verses that say God wont cast off forever etc etc indicate that his anger is not eternal, I dont think there wont be justice meted out to people, in fact all people but it will be justice......not wrathful torturing vengeance and there's a massive difference..... It says that all will confess and every knee will bow doesnt it? its interpreted so often that many will say it too late but does it actually say that in the verse.........going by this verse on its own merits then everyone will actually be saved......... Right, i wont pretend to have answered to your satisfaction to be honest, I'm sure there's a fair chance you'll disagree as with others but would you be able to answer my original question in return?

Well i think that all the verses indicate inclusiveness of all humanity to be honest......but to answer the points about the two verses you've addressed - if its God's will that all men be saved then who could thwart it......the Col verse doesnt indicate that its God's whim but rather a plan that isnt going to stopped by the wills of men, it says to reconcile all things unto himself be it in heaven or on earth likewise in the Eph verse it indicates that this would occur within the fullness of time too, I appreciate what you mean regarding the salvation of the jews and the misnoma about that but it doesnt really explain why these verses dont say the salvation of purely believers.....or at least descriptions to that effect, Religion has notoriously prided itself by use of "exclusivity." If you make these people feel "not special" then you really won't have a working religion. I'm a firm supporter of Evolution. The Bibie wouldn't be around, if it wasn't a potent written force to begin with. True? That doesn't matter, if it can cast the illusion that it is. Helping that illusion along is telling people, "Keep me holy and you'll gain exclusive rights into my kingdom." By "you'll", I mean a certain subset that "believe" it. You starting to see the circular reference? It's just one of many. I can see your point, unfortunately exclusivity should be the last thing and I believe actually is the last thing that the bible teaches, going slightly off topic here I guess but the actual good news of the gospel in so far as i believe it is that God is there for everyone no matter what denomination they have or lack thereof.......man excludes and places more emphasis on doctrines that apparently have more truth than another churche's doctrines and the whole message gets caught up in dogma with one set claiming to have the truth while another says the same etc etc ........as far as I'm concerned God isnt about doctrines but about people..........I think i heard here that Jesus was the ultimate fundamentalist........its funny because at the time he was regarded as the ultimate heretic by those who lived by religious teaching..........!

Great stuff Red77. I think others would say "Amen" here.

Well i think that all the verses indicate inclusiveness of all humanity to be honest......but to answer the points about the two verses you've addressed - if its God's will that all men be saved then who could thwart it......the Col verse doesnt indicate that its God's whim but rather a plan that isnt going to stopped by the wills of men, it says to reconcile all things unto himself be it in heaven or on earth likewise in the Eph verse it indicates that this would occur within the fullness of time too, I appreciate what you mean regarding the salvation of the jews and the misnoma about that but it doesnt really explain why these verses dont say the salvation of purely believers.....or at least descriptions to that effect,

Well frankly I think it's disingenuous for anyone to ask for understanding about something unless he has a mind and heart open to the possibility that his own doctrine, or his own adopted doctrine could be wrong. I have engaged in many of these debates in the past, and when someone says, "Here. Here are some verses. Prove to me that I'm wrong." oftentimes it's the case that the person does not have a heart that is open to correction, but is rather posturing in order to exalt his own opinion. Really, it becomes a waste of time and effort to try to correct that person, since he is not open to such correction. If such is your case, then what would be the point of engaging in a debate? It would be a waste of my time and yours. To be honest IMO it should always be a case of presuming that the questioner is genuine in his asking until proved otherwise, I make no bones about my belief but thats to be expected, likewise you do the same.....but if there's genuinedebate about these issues then its all good, thats why I ask.......I object only because none of the verses were addressed which iswhat i askd in my original post, it is pointless in this question to avoid them because they're at the heart of the question and therefore integral to a response, I'm not going to pretend that i'm going to change my beliefs without hard evidence to the contrary, I hold them to be true but as someone who values truth I'm also open to the possibility of my being wrong..........Are you also open to the possibility that my OP has a point? If not then please correct and refute and explain why

well no offence here but you havent addressed any of the verses that seem to refute your claims, how do you explain away so many verses that indicate that all men will be reconciled? To be honest I'd sooner if other people are just going to say similar things without addressing the verses that they dont reply to the thread.......it would be pointless, the whole point of posting this thread was to get some understanding of why I seemingly misinterpret these verses to mean the salvation of all men..........and why........if there's another apparent meaning then it should be easy enough to explain in clear and concise terms.............