Fool-4-Christ

Hr. Jr., While waiting to hear back from you, I tried to remember where I heard your type of reasoning before... Then I found it! It's a type of Open Theism. Here is a link in regards to the logical conclusions of OT, what it is, and if it can be dangerous. http://www.carm.org/open.htm You be the judge....

Sylvan - may I ask you a simple question? Is this what you are gambling your eternity on? Humor me for a moment and suppose the possibility of a God could in fact be true, just for arguments sake - We all know you are an Athiest. If I was dunking your mother's head in a pail of water and making her choke and that was my only intention but inadvertently I drownded her, would you not want to see justice served and the law upheld? Let's go on further to say that I was standing before a judge in court and I was telling him how very sorry I was and that I didn't intend to kill her, that I had sincerely made a mistake and I really thought that dunking her would only cause her to choke for a while. Would he be a good judge if he looked the other way and dismissed my crime. Be honest when you answer this. If anyone is rational they would say, "no he wouldn't be a good judge because the law must be upheld." Ignorance of the law does not prevent anyone from being subject too it. How much more do you think we are subject to God's law (if he exists)? God would really be unjust if he turned a blind eye on sin. First of all, your scenario is not reflective of what I am actually referring to. A better example would be being pulled in front of a judge and sentenced to life in prison or death by torture for believing that gas prices were $2.80 instead of $3.00 a gallon. What would you think of that court system? I am merely asking if God, being perfect, would have perfect empathy that would enable him to understand why some people didn't believe in him who were, in fact, being honest with themselves due to a lack of evidence of his existence. Sylvan, I thank you for your reply and look forward to responding but it is late and I have spent far too much time responding to another post this evening. I will be headed out of town and will try to respond from my hotel room tomorrow evening. I just wanted to be courtiuos and not leave you thinking I was ignoring your post.

what bible are you quoting out of? the verse listed above in my nkjv, says,i form the light and create darkness, i make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things. it does not say, evil in place of calamity. so please, fill me in, is this a bible quote or half a bible quote and the rest, your wording. your personal interpretation. i would like to read this myself. It is the original King James Version. In the New King James calamity is used, in the NIV it is disaster The Hebrew word is Ra' (rah) and it has various usages throughout scripture 1)bad, evil bad, disagreeable, malignant bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery) evil, displeasing bad (of its kind - land, water, etc) bad (of value) worse than, worst (comparison) sad, unhappy evil (hurtful) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition) bad, evil, wicked (ethically) in general, of persons, of thoughts deeds, actions n m 2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity evil, distress, adversity evil, injury, wrong evil (ethical) n f 3) evil, misery, distress, injury evil, misery, distress evil, injury, wrong evil (ethical) Hope this helps???

Hr. Jr., Thanks for your reply but you are confusing Jesus' human nature with His divine nature. Remember that He was fully God and fully man. I would be digressing form the topic at hand and wouldn't want to be scolded by the modarators for hi-jacking a thread so I will provide a few links from a reliable source: I must admit I am impressed by your thinking, I have never had that question posed to me by a Christian. Usually it is asked by a non-believer or a JW in an effort to question the diety of Christ. The passages you are reffering to as a quagmire are Mark 13:32 But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. and Matthew 24:36 But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. Here are the links that will provide you information into the true nature of Christ: These are from Christian Apologetics and Reasearch Ministry: www.carm.org They have a wealth of very reliable information and provide the Scripture support to back up their claims. http://www.carm.org/diff/Mark13_32.htm http://www.carm.org/questions/Jesus_know.htm They also have links in them that will give you a deeper understanding of both of Jesus' natures. http://www.carm.org/doctrine/2natures.htm Now to answer your other questions: 1) Do you think God can do anything? No, I don't think God can do anything - I hope you would rethink your "YES" answer to this question. a) God cannot Lie (SIN). Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? 1 Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. b) God cannot CHANGE. Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 2) Do you believe He can do anything He chooses at any time He Chooses? Again No, please see previous answer. God is limited only to His own Holyness and Glory. He cannot contradict or compromise His character. So logically He would be limited by Himself alone. I hope you aren't trying to bring up the useless questions: Can God create a rock that He can't move? etc. etc. Back to your previous arguement: God does see everything and always has. Please allow me to provide Scripture to support my claims. If our common goal is to grow in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ don't you think it would be benificial that we provide eachother with Scriptural proofs, or do you view this as some kind of contest? Psalm 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite. Just by the definition of the word infinite - we can see that his understanding is without boundaries and limits Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good. Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth ALL things. emphasis mine I can't believe I almost forgot these!!! How do you reconcile the Genesis acount of the fall? Genesis 3:5 (ESV) For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: So I ask you two questions: Can God be surprised? Can man change God's plan? I hope you will take the time to diligently and thoroughly answer my questions, like I have done yours. Please provide Scriptural proofs so we and the others reading will be able to grow from these discussions. As Iron Sharpens Iron, Paul Kaiser P.S. Could you please provide the Scripture references you mentioned in your previous post? P.P.S. - Sheep Dog, evil is also often tied to God. So I would be reluctant to agree with that arguement? I cannot thank you enough for being one of the few that use Scripture references to support your ideas. Lamantations 3:38 (AMP) Is it not out of the mouth of the Most High that evil and good both proceed [adversity and prosperity, physical evil or misfortune and physical good or happiness]? Exodus 32:14 (AMP) Then the Lord turned from the evil which He had thought to do to His people. 2 Samuel 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. I could continue but I think you get my point. Again, I must thank you for being one of the few that use the Scripture references to support your ideas.

Sylvan - may I ask you a simple question? Is this what you are gambling your eternity on? Humor me for a moment and suppose the possibility of a God could in fact be true, just for arguments sake - We all know you are an Athiest. If I was dunking your mother's head in a pail of water and making her choke and that was my only intention but inadvertently I drownded her, would you not want to see justice served and the law upheld? Let's go on further to say that I was standing before a judge in court and I was telling him how very sorry I was and that I didn't intend to kill her, that I had sincerely made a mistake and I really thought that dunking her would only cause her to choke for a while. Would he be a good judge if he looked the other way and dismissed my crime. Be honest when you answer this. If anyone is rational they would say, "no he wouldn't be a good judge because the law must be upheld." Ignorance of the law does not prevent anyone from being subject too it. How much more do you think we are subject to God's law (if he exists)? God would really be unjust if he turned a blind eye on sin.

Your statement is very contridictory (Tell him Sylvan!!! - I'm sorry, I just really want to debate you... But I believe you are scared God might give you a heart of flesh and you will be converted??? - You are actually the main reason I'm still hanging out here... LOL!) By saying that God is Omniscient and yet doesn't know everything is illogical. By very definiton of the word, your statement is wrong. om

Gekko, I appriciate your response however I must lovingly correct some of you mis conceptions about my post (you've got to love message boards, they can breed great misunderstanding). I in no way have displayed works based salvation and I would appriciate that if you make such a claim you do so backing it up with Scripture and not just our opinions. Salvation is by grace and grace alone: Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Romans 3:4-5 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. So I think we are both in agreement of this part: Our works merit us nothing before the throne of God. Our only merit is that we have our names written down in the Lamb's Book of Life. Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. However the Bible clearly teaches that we are to bear fruit and that our good works are an evedence of our salvation: Matthew 3:7-9 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Did not the Pharisees believe in God? Were they not the keepers of the Mosaic Law? However a simple hearing and knowledge of God was not enough to save. They did not "receive" the Gospel of the Messiah. Head knowledge and heart knowledge are two different things. With the line of reasoning you use: "one does not have to bear fruit to be saved". How do you reconcile Jesus' words in Matthew Chp. 7? Matthew 7:15-23 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. We will know them by their FRUIT! If they do not bear good fruit the will be cast into the lake of fire. This is not my subjective opinion but the testimony of Christ himself. Yes, the passage is refering to False Prophets but the same application can be applied to any professing Christian. How do we know a Christian? Not because of what they speak but because of what they do. Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. You see we bear fruit one way or another, either good fruit or corrupt fruit, we are either saved or unsaved. Again it was Jesus that said "a tree that bringeth fourth NOT good fruit is cut down and cast into the lake of fire", not me. Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Romans 7:4-6 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. This brings us back to the previous post and the parable of the sower: We must carefully look at all three Gospel accounts for a clear understanding. Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. Mark 4:7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. What did Jesus say about those that bear no fruit in Matthew 7 or how about Luke 3:9? Do saved people get cast into the lake of fire? How about people who were once saved? If the the promise is that we shall be saved does it leave a possibility for us to be unsaved? Luke 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. What about Jude 1? Those without fruit, twice dead; their reward is the blackness of darkness... Jude 1:11-13 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. Our good fruits are in Christ Jesus, so if we are truly His we WILL produce good fruit! How do you reconcile Jesus' words in John 15? John 15:1-11 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. And how can I forget this one, it's rather plain: John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. This (John 15:16) is a promise that we (Believers) will bear fruit that remains. Philippians 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God. What about good works: They are wrought in Christ Jesus so that our light will shine before men and bring Glory to God the Father. Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 1 Peter 2:12 (NIV) Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Colosians 1:9-11 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Titus 1 15-16 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They PROFESS that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. emphasis mine Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Now let's look at James: We can apply this same principle to determining those who are false converts - Pay close attention that both of these people are "religious" but one's religion is in vain. James 1:22-26 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. And we all know this passage all too well, but seem to forget it. James 2:17-26 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Would you accuse James of talking about a works-based salvation? Is James contridicting Paul who said it was by grace alone (Eph 2:8)? This is a "strawman" because I don't sincerely believe that you would answer yes to those questions. I could go on longer but like in my previous post I figured it was best left to far greater men than me. I will however exercise my Matthew 18:15 right: Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. I must admit I was offended by the fact that you accused me of supporting works-based salvation and the fact that you made the claim that most of my post was WOTM, I did neither of those things. As for Way Of The Master, Living Waters, and Ray Comfort: I can boldly say that, "yes, I do highly endorse and recommend their materials for anyone who would like to be better equipped to share their faith biblically." I have found Ray and Kirk's teaching to be highly sound and accurate according to the Scriptures. However it is not the end all be all as some have unfortunately viewed it. I do not think that was the intention nor the goal of Living Waters Ministries or it's affiliates: The Great News Network, Way Of The Master Radio or The School of Biblical Evangelism. Unfortunately many use this as a replacement for being equipped to know their Bibles, and when they run into someone who doesn't fit the mold they are not equipped to refute them and they are dependent on a method rather than the power of Christ and His word. I used Ray's link to T&F C's because it is an easy to understand sermon for many new and mature Christians alike. It is even easy for an unregenerate person to follow (as for understanding, I leave that to the Spirit of God). It amazes me that you didn't notice that there were far more links to other more theologically and doctrinally driven sermons. Pound for pound there was very little of Ray Comfort included, however the link to T&F C's was also included on the top of one of the Sermon Audio lists (something I had no control over). I pray that you will see that first and foremost I am a student of the Bible and a follower of Jesus Christ. Before I hang my hat with any faliable man i.e - John MacArthur, John Piper, Alistar Begg, R.C. Sproul, D. James Kennedy, CJ Mahaney, Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever, Albert Mohler, Greg Koukl, Charles Spurgeon, Johnathan Edwards, Martin Luther, John Bunyan, JI Packer, John Calvin, Matthew Henry and Ray Comfort; I will always look to Christ and His Revelation of himself to man - The Scriptures. With that said: God has gifted the church with great men with far greater minds than yours and mine, what a shame it would be if we were to neglected such a great gift. Ephesians 4:10-12 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: I look forward to your response. In Christ, Paul Kaiser P.S. Sylvan where are you??? P.P.S. Yes I am enroled in the SOBE and love it! I would highly recomend it for any Christian who wants to obey the Great Commission and be used to reach souls in the Master's Vineyard. The harvest is truly plentiful but the laborers are few. Therefore pray that the Lord of the harvest will send fourth laborers into his vineyard! I am also a Local Leader for The Great News Network You can also find out more about me and how I witness at these two sites: www.reformedevangelist.com and www.paulkaiser.net/seedsowers.html

Sylvan, Man, you prowl around like a roaring lion, seeaking who you can devour! Yet you will neglect to intellegently respond to me? May I inquire as to why that is? As for the question presented in this post. No the foolish virgins were not saved. Think for a second about the whole of scripture... What does it say about our Salvation? Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. So it is clear that those that are truly saved are secure in that salvation. We cannot lose it, we don't get saved and unsaved over and over again. We perservere until the end! Those that are the Son's sheep shall not be plucked out of the Father's hand. These are just a few Scriptures to support this however there are many, many more. As for the parables, What did Jesus say was the key for understanding the parables? Mark 4:13 Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? Jesus made it clear that if you understand the parable of the sower then you will have a clearer understanding of all the other parables so I will begin here. This parable can be found in the books of : Matthew 13:3-24, Mark 4:3-20 and Luke 8:5-15. I would recommend going back, as the good Bereans we all are, and review the passages for yourself before taking my word for it. Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. There are four types of hearers: 1) The Wayside Hearer 2) The Stony Ground Hearer 3) The Hearer Among The Thorns 4) The Good Soil Hearer Only one of these hearers received, understood and bore good fruit. That was the good soil hearer all the others were "False Converts". You see there are really only two types of soil when you get to the bottom of it: The soil that bears fruit and the soil that doesn't - you are either prepared for the Bridegroom or you aren't. These are those that are among the church. They are those who have an outward profession but have no inward confession of "Saving Faith". Today we find them in all of our churches, at our bible studies, everywhere. These are those that are regular church goers, they pray, the read their bibles, they are very religious people but are full of dead men's bones (like the Pharisees). They believe their religious activities makes them a Christian but these will be those that cry "Lord, Lord" in that Last day. Going to church and doing good works makes us no more Christians than if going to into McDonalds makes us a Big Mac! Matthew 7:20-23 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Once we understand this parable of the sower then all of the Kingdom parables will be clear. When we realize that these are "Professing Christians" then we can clearly understand all the others: The Sheep and The Goats, The Good Fish and The Bad Fish, The Wheat and The Tares, "THE WISE AND THE FOOLISH VIRGINS" I would love to spend more time on this for you but there are more than enough great resources on this topic from creditable ministries on the web. Here is a link to a great sermon about True and False Conversions Please take the time to listen to it. Here is a link to several sermons on T &F C's from Sermon Audio Here is a link to Wise and Foolish Virgins sermons from Sermon Audio In Christ, Paul Kaiser

This response is to LNJ and Fool-4-Christ. I think we can agree that faith does not equal fact. Establishing something as fact is not easy. The Bible contains many extraordinary claims that, in the absence of extraordinary evidence, can only be believed on faith. I understand that this faith may be real for you. It is still faith. I also have faith. However, my faith is that the Bible is not inerrant and that 950-year-old men and talking snakes (among other extraordinary claims) did not exist. I have faith that there isn't a God who is going to create a world in which people who don't "think" a certain way will perish in hell for eternity. Therefore, you can say that your faith is legitimate. That's fine; it may be legitimate for you. However, I can also say that my faith is legitimate. Sylvan, Come on you can do better than that, can't you? You didn't even have the courtesy to answer my original four questions. Are you really looking to have a logical debate or are you just wanting to rant about a God that you do not believe exists? I am really doing my best to pose a logical discussion, but I am unsure of your motivations. I've already answered the arguement about God punishing people because they "don't think a certain way". Man is sent to Hell not because he doesn't believe in/have faith in Jesus but rather because he is a sinner. It is our sin that sends us to Hell. We lie, we steal, we lust, it is our transgression of God's moral law , the decalouge, (The 10 C's) that condems us not "belief" in Christ. Thinking/believing/faith won't save anyone: James 2:18-20 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Here we see the demons believe and guess what? They Aren't Saved! Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. I would also asume that you have faith that we came from monkey men as well? (please address this question in your response too) How absurd that you would hold Christians to a higher standard than yourself. You are able to have faith but we are not? You see the point I'm trying to make is that when you make a statement like this: It is highly illogical. It can't be "fine" our two faiths are diametrically opposed. One of us has to be wrong. It's like if I were to look up into the sky and say, hey the sky is blue" and then you look into the same sky and say, "Hey the sky is grey", we both can't be right and in all actuallity the sky is clear. No matter what we believe our opinions don't change the truth. Can you say I'm wrong? I can confidently say that, Sylvan you are wrong, not only wrong but dead wrong. And like I said before it is not my job to convince you that the Bible is true, only God can do that. My prayer is that God will grant you "saving faith" and that, faith is a gift from God. It is nothing that in all of our reasoning, in all of our debating, in all of our simple logic we will ever be able to create or conjure up from within ourselves. It is of God. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: I pray that like Lydia your heart is opened to the Gospel... Acts 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. I think Mark Twain said it best: "It's not the things that we don't understand about the Bible that we have issue with but, rather the things that we do understand!" Sylvan try with a tender canscience holding yourself up to the light of God's Ten Comandments and see how you make out. You are in need of God's mercy, His grace, His Son. Again I urge you to cry out to Him in Repentence and put your trust in His redemptive work on the cross. Harden not your heart... Hebrews 3:7-9 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Hebrews 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. I again look forward to your response, Paul Kaiser P.S. Pointer - Your question makes no logical sense - I stated up front that I have come to understand the Bible to be Axiomatic (look up the term if you are unfamiliar with it)... P.P.S Pointer - Are you a "Christian"? It seems at times that you yourself doubt the sufficency of Scripture? This is not ment to be divicive but a question for clarity - Please forgive me if offence is taken....

Nobody makes that argument. The Christian does not ever say, "Here is God's Word, you must believe it." The Christian says, "Christ died for your sins." Those who accept that also accept the Bible and live by it. Hello All, I was invited here by a friend from church and it is so painful to read these posts. It appears that there is a gross misunderstanding of God's character and man's sinful condition before a Holy and Just God. Sylvan3 is right! That is a very poor arguement for the infallibility, inerrancy and inspiration of Holy Scripture. I will also go on to say that I do believe the Bible litterally from cover to cover - Genesis to Revelation, that it is the word of God a divine revelation of Himself to man. I have found it to be axiomatic = "self-evident" and not needing proof. You see Sylvan the burden of proof is on you. I live by faith. Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. According to Scripture I am only asked to give a reason for the hope that I have. 1 Peter 3:14-16 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. I'm sure we can agree that the bible as a text is a historical document of antiquity like Homers Iliad, the gospel of Judas, etc. and there is more than enough manuscript evidence to support this claim (check it out for yourself). I find it funny how no one ever questions the validity of any other work of antiquity but they will question the Bible. You see it's usually not the text itself that is in question but rather the claims that it makes. Correction Pointer: I do say that you "must believe the Word of God", how can one ever believe in Christ without believing in the Specific Revelation given by God to reveal Him to us? Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. However Sylvan, it is not my job to make you "believe" the inspiration of the bible. That is a work of God. Christians don't forget that it is clear Sylvan in an unregenerate state will never "understand" the bible and it is foolishness to expect him to. 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Job 32:7-9 I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom. But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment. 1 Corinthians 1:18-19 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Sylvan needs to understand his sinfulness before a Holy God and then and only then may God grant repentence. Sylvan you can disagree if you like but that doesn't change reality - If I say I don't believe in trucks and walk out on to a freeway of oncoming traffic, I'll probably be convinced rather quickly. The same remains for you. We all have to face God on Judgement Day. Yes, I am coming from the premis that God does in fact exist and I am assuming that you are an Athiest? I have a few questions for you: 1) Do you know the combined weight of all the sand on all the beaches of Hawaii? 2) Do you know how many hairs are on the back of a fully grown Tibetan Yak? 3) Do you believe in absolute truth? 4) Do you believe in your heart that "God does not exist"? Please allow me to address the inital question: How can God allow stoning as a death penalty? We are working from the stand point that man is inherently good, and by being good he diserves some sort of mercy. This is counter biblical: Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Genesis 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. I saw someone post that the flood wiped out the sin and that the cancer came back. Well this is an illogicial arguement because Noah and the others were still bound by their sin nature. So sin nor its bondage was completely removed from the earth. However God's promise of Messiah was still preserved. Genesis 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring[d] and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." - Christ revealed in the very first chapters of Genesis, this is prophesy of the Cross and the Atonement. We are all guilty before God, we are sinners in need of His grace (God's undeserved favor). He is a just judge and if we were given what we deserve we would all be cast into Hell. So in commanding that men, women, and children who are inherently wicked be put to death is not something unjust. What is unjust if you ask me would be that God turns his back on sin and allows it to go unpunished. As humans made in God's image we all have a sense of justice. Believers and unbelievers alike are offended by child molesters, murderers, rapists, etc. Think of all the murders and rapes that have taken place where the offender never gets caught. We as believers find great comfort in knowing that sin will be punished. However the bible states that not only these will be punished for their crimes but also adulterers, theives, blasphemers, and liars will have their part in the lake of fire. Revelations 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. The bible states that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Romans 9:14-16 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Exodus 33:9 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Job understood this full well. When calamity fell upon his house he understood the Soverignty of God: Job 1:20-22 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. God would have been just in condeming us all at birth. In and of ourselves we are not good. Even our good works are abomnible in the eyes of the Lord. Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Christians we have a serious problem (that usually leads to these type of vain discussions) if we neglect the fact that we are sinful fallen humans from birth. Psalm 51:4-6 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. We deserve nothing but wrath from God and in His tender mercy He ordained from eternity past that he would provide a way for fallen, sinful man to be forgiven through the death of His Son Christ Jesus - The Lamb of God slain before the foundations of the earth. John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. Revelation 13:7-9 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear. God has pronounced a death sentence on all of humanity: We are all part of the "Ultimate Stastic" - 10 out of 10 people die! This is evidence of the heinousness of sin. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Men, women and children are not condemed to Hell because "they don't believe in Jesus" but rather because of SIN. John 3:17-19 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. In rejecting Christ's payment for our sins we are left guilty before God and are due our punishment. We are not made righteous by our own merits but by the shed blood of Christ. Romans 3:22-24 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Christ's love is this: that He died for sinners! Romans 5:7-9 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. God's ultimate love is demonstrated in the Cross of Jesus Christ and how foolish of us, sinful humanity, to think that if God himself came into this world and clothed himself in flesh and paid the ultimate price for us that we should ever hold a charge of unrighteousness to Him even if we can't grasp the concept of Him commanding that children be put to death. What great love that Christ has for us sinners like us: John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Sylvan it is my sincere prayer that God would remove your heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh. Ezeikel 36:25-27 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. I pray that the Lord grant you repentance and that you will cry out to Him for mercy, acknowledging that your are a sinner in need of His grace. Today is the day of salvation. Cry out to God while there is still time, we are not promised tomorrow. Pray that God will give you understanding and that you will be able to heed the call of the Gospel. Repent and put your trust in Jesus Christ... 2 Timothy 2:24-26 And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will. In His Precious Truth, Paul Kaiser P.S. - I hope that my argument was worthy of your intellegent response and I look forward to your comments.

Your argument begs the question that evil is out of God's control because of "free will" Then I pose this question Hr. Jr.: Is God soverign? Is God all knowing? If this is the case then isn't it safe to say evil was ordained by God? Here is a great article on this topic by John Piper: http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/...d_and_evil.html