pennyinabottlecap

It doesn't to me either. That is why I wonder if the Pastors of these churches knew she had stopped this sin, or were under the impression she was still in the lifestyle? that's one of the reasons i made the post. to know that it's acknowledged as wrong. but after speaking to all 4 churches, it's not all so bad. the seeds that were planted from the original church made her hyper-aware of herself and any past sin. another church claimed that they didnt remember her, another claimed he had a discussion with her and she reacted poorly, the first one it was more the congregation looking at her funny that made her feel unwelcome. i just didnt want to type it all out and explain it, but i probably should have. sorry, first big post not quite used to it. Haha no problem, I'm just glad we're all seeing this the same way now! haha amen. praise Him.

It doesn't to me either. That is why I wonder if the Pastors of these churches knew she had stopped this sin, or were under the impression she was still in the lifestyle? that's one of the reasons i made the post. to know that it's acknowledged as wrong. but after speaking to all 4 churches, it's not all so bad. the seeds that were planted from the original church made her hyper-aware of herself and any past sin. another church claimed that they didnt remember her, another claimed he had a discussion with her and she reacted poorly, the first one it was more the congregation looking at her funny that made her feel unwelcome. i just didnt want to type it all out and explain it, but i probably should have. sorry, first big post not quite used to it.

yes, unfortuanutely. Butero, please understand that a lot of my questions are merely to play devil's advocate. it's just nice to get things out on the floor. he knew it was a struggle, but because of rough spots where she fell back into the sin and repents but the temptation remains, the church gave up.

i agree to a point, but is it about guilt? did god only embrace those who felt guilty about sin? does He not love marilyn manson who feels no guilt whatsoever living in sin? an extreme example, but it does illustrate the point. just becuse someone continues to push away, He doesnt leave them out to dry, and if we claim to be part of the body of God, then can we leave them out to dry? Actually, those who feel no guilty, though we can engage them in discussion as to why they should feel guilt, should not be among the fellowship. You are placing a higher emphasis on "love" (which I believe even your idea of Biblical love is off) over personal holiness. Yes, we are called to reach out to people, to go into all the world and make disciples. But this is one verse contained within 1,000's....and is not even the greatest commandment. THe greatest commandment is to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, and mind. Anything that would put any of that in danger, or put someone else in danger of this, must be avoided. So assume you bring in a non-repentant homosexual to the church in order to reach out to him. He does not believe he is sinning and therefor econtinues about in his sin. He befriends another male adult at the church, who has been struggling with homosexuality, and eventually convinces him that this sin is okay. At this point, we have done a very unloving thing; we have let someone trying to repent to God be devoured by a wolf. We have allowed the greatest commandment to be violated and though we may feel pious and loving in allowing an unrepentand homosexual in our church, we have done so by sacrificing a truly repentant brother in the process. We need to look at the bigger picture. We can reach out to all, but church is not about evangelism. When we meet at church it isn't to get people saved, it's to fellowship and grow from other believers. This is why Paul instructs the various churches over 10 times to remove sinful people (those who refused to repent) from their midsts. He did not say "don't reach out to unrepentant sinners" but instead did say to exclude them from fellowship within the church. It really is a thin line...on one hand you become too exclusive but on the other you become too inclusive. ( i love this response and i'd like to confess now that a lot of my questions after my actual paragraph are merely to play devil's advocate) please see my clarification responses, 'cause i left out a few crucial details.

yes and i'm sry, i've failed to clarify that she is a converted christian, who came out of homosexuality, but since the temptation is stillthere, and it's a constant struggle, she's still seen as the "lesbian", and was kikd out. it was fairly obvious she felt remorse, but it's a difficult transition going from the fruit of the flesh to the fruit of the spirit. instead of help, she got removed.

Paul speaks of Praying for the christian who falls into sin as well! we dont give up on those who lie or curse or take the lords name in vain even though they do it CONSTANTLY, why give up on a homosexual>? And what about the people caught up in fornication and incest that Paul told to remove from the congregation and turn over to Satan? 1 IT is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ. 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. verse 5, deliver such an one unto satan, doesn't it refer to the sin, as opposed to the person?

and if we dont allow God's love to flow to them through us, how are they wrong in thinking God hates them? havent we given that impression? is an apology not owed? OK Pennyinabottlecap, did your way of doing things lead this woman to stop engaging in homosexual sins, or did it mearly make her feel better about herself? i believe a combination. i failed to mention this part and for that i apologize, but she's a converted believer who has come out of homosexuality but the temptation is still there. she felt as if the fact that it's still a temptation, God hates her, and after sharing this with the elders, they gave her the "release".

1 IT is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ. 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. i agree. allow me to clarify. The woman has been struggling with homosexuality, not practicing since her conversion, but however, the sinful nature remains. there lies my controversy with the select church. verse 3 speaks of how God has already done the judging, so what i'm trying to say is, who are we to judge? we're not in the position to do so. doesn't verse 5 speak of giving up the sin, as opposed to the person?

Paul speaks of Praying for the christian who falls into sin as well! we dont give up on those who lie or curse or take the lords name in vain even though they do it CONSTANTLY, why give up on a homosexual>?

i agree to a point, but is it about guilt? did god only embrace those who felt guilty about sin? does He not love marilyn manson who feels no guilt whatsoever living in sin? an extreme example, but it does illustrate the point. just becuse someone continues to push away, He doesnt leave them out to dry, and if we claim to be part of the body of God, then can we leave them out to dry?

and if we dont allow God's love to flow to them through us, how are they wrong in thinking God hates them? havent we given that impression? is an apology not owed?

I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matt. 16:18) if were going to be that way, then christianity is already worthless in America! if we're judging on how we see man turning on each other over christian beliefs, or on the faults of man not living up to the necessary qualities of going to Heaven. But i believe christianity is never worthless, never will be, never was, because if God stands behind it, it's good enough for me. "when god's busy in the fields paintin' flowers, i'll see ya in the fields, 'cause that's exactly where i wanna be." -Nico and the Fat Pants

a pretty controversial subject for anyone but wat the heck. i should probably start this by letting y'all know i work as a worship leader and occasional speaker. At one of the nights i played a worship set, and i was intense. fantastic response and everyone connected with God. but after the set, a woman in her early 20's came up to me crying, and asked, "why does God hate me?" when i asked her to explain, she said she was a lesbian, and her church said they weren't going to necessarily ban her from the church, but that it would be appreciated if she didnt attend their services. she went to the services anyway, but she was treated so poorly she couldnt take it anymore. she transferred churches 4 times and the same thing happened over, and over, and over again. she felt so dirty when christians took their so called "initiative" with nothing but good intentions told her that homosexuality is a sin and if she didnt stop, she would go to hell. I'll finish her story in a second, but what in the heck are we as a christian body doing? please understand that i dont condone homosexuality, but i will also NOT condone the actions of any church who does such a thing, and i believe neither does God! I know that not all christians will kick out a homosexual, but i've watched and seen people shunning, ridiculing, mocking, avoiding, and excluding homosexuals from on and offstage. this woman was the first to approach me, and i've spoken on it since, but what is going on? are we in the position of God? why do the bold christians approach homosexuals as if they were on a mission from God, but to talk to someone about their heterosexual sex life avoid it like the plague? who are we to judge them on any sin? If a liar comes into our church, we dont ask them to leave, we don't go up and discuss their shortcomings of the kingdom of God. why should we do so to the homosexual? are not all sins equal in the eyes of God? can God accept one sin and not the other? absolutely Not! Back to the woman. After calming her down a bit, i apologized as a christian, for what her churches had done to her, because as a christian, i am a member of the church, and i, as we all should, should accept the responsibilty. i told her God doesn't hate her, and He loves her just as much as anyone else. we talked for a while about her personal life, we prayed, and she left. then the Father of one of her churches that asked her not to come anymore came up to me and asked if she had "confessed her sinful path" to me. i said yes, and asked why he asked her not to attend his church anymore. he said that if she was to live sinfully, he wouldn't condone her behavior and allow her to come and hinder the congregation in his church. i'm not going to lie, i was angered by this. pretty passionately, i said "first off, any church is God's, not yours. second, The church is an invitation to meet with God, not some kind of priveledge to pull away as a punishment. 3rd, have you ever lied?" he admitted he had. "and is not all sin equal?" he admitted in God's sight, it is. "then are you not as guilty of homosexuality as she is?" he started to get as huffy as i was so i ended our conversation and i wasn't invited back. but several memebers of his church still stay in contact with me, and have become friends with the woman who i was speaking about. I just felt the need to share that. i know it's controversial, and i'm sorry for that, but it needs to be said. God loves homosexuals as much as He loves me. i love you.