kenod

Some may teach that, I'm not sure - there is a wide diversity of opinions. Anyway, I do not agree witht the second chance idea. Have you considered that the pretribulation rapture might be for some believers and not all? I find the parables of the virgins and the servants very interesting because the context of Mat 24 & 25 is prophecy. They were all true virgins, all true servants - all children of God. Some were chastised for their lack of action and preparedness. The 5 wise virgins with the "oil" went into the "marriage". The unprofitable servant was cast out into a time of weeping and wailing (Tribulation). How should we prepare for the return of Jesus Christ? By trying to win souls and being as good as we can? Sure, they are good things. But God has always required one thing above all else, and that is faith in his Word. Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

When I asked the question in post #1, I was not thinking about speaking in tongues, just what it means to "receive" the Holy Spirit. It seems clear that the Samaritans did not receive the Holy Spirit when they believed. It seems clear that Paul did not receive the Holy Spirit when he believed. Jesus appeared to him personally so I would say he believed from that moment. After all, he knew a lot about "the Way", and He'd heard an excellent sermon from Stephen. As for the disciples in Ephesus, we have to assume that they had not heard about Jesus, although they were believers, and therefore had not received the Holy Spirit. Personally, I do not feel comfortable with that interpretation. My own experience was something similar to the Ephesian disciples. I became a Christian in a Baptist church and so I did not know about receiving the Holy Spirit. Later, when I learned more about the Holy Spirit, hands were laid on me, and I received. My conclusion is that some people do receive the Holy Spirit when they believe, and some do not. It is something that each individual must seek out for him/herself, and be very sure of their experience. After all, if the "oil" in the parable of the 10 virgins does represent the Holy Spirit, it may mean the difference between going into the "marriage" and being left behind. As for speaking in tongues, I do believe in that, but I do not consider it to be the infallible evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit. We should never deny anything that is Scriptural, and tongues is Scriptural, although the way it is practiced in some churches may not be. "When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth".

Receiving the Holy Spirit for some of the Christians in Acts was an experience subsequent to believing in Jesus Christ. Is it any different today? Acts 8:15-17 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. Acts 19:2-6 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

You have a very good point - the reason/motive behind any "government identity scheme" is the most important consideration. Although we do need to be careful. Sometimes an outwardly good reason can cloak something much more sinister. For example, my country has just approved "therapeutic cloning", ostensibly for the development of cures for diseases like Parkinsons. Well, we know Jesus said certain things were hidden from the wise (Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.) And we know that The Revelation (like most prophecy) is primarily a book of symbols ... symbols that can only be understood by searching the Scriptures to find their meaning. A good starting place is to study every verse that mentions the word "forehead" or "foreheads" (there aren't that many) and try to determine what it means. The same can be done for "right hand" ... though there are quite a few of those. It is interesting that “forehead/s” is mentioned eight times in The Revelation alone - four times referring to the ungodly (Rev 13:6, 14:9, 17:5, 20:4) and four times referring to the godly (Rev 7:3, 9:4, 14:1, 22:4). .

And is this visible and tangible? Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Nearly everything in The Revelation is symbolic. That there may very well be some literal "mark", is possible, but that still is not the mark in the forehead and in the right hand. The "mark", the "forehead", and the "right hand" are symbolic. Their meanings are spelt out in the Scriptures. .

The very air that we breathe, CJ. I do agree that in the Tribulation, the devil will gain greater control of the political and economic activity on the earth through the beast and his image.

I believe that our eternal destination depends upon our freewill choice. Some will choose the way of the devil thinking that it is the right way. Their reasons for choosing that way may be very varied: popularity, arrogance, money, easier life, etc etc. Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast,and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

You have a good point, that the "buying" and "selling" (and we are not exactly sure what that entails - the 'who' and the 'what') will be permissable only for those who have identified themselves with the beast system. For myself, literal trade and commerce alone would not be the deciding factor. The main factor would be what do I have to give my assent to in acepting compulsory id registration. Already RFID technology, including the implantation of microchips, is serving a valuable service for patients who have life threatening diseases, allowing immediate and complete medical histories to be accessed. So an implanted chip in itself is not a bad thing. And again, it is the spiritual significance of any compulsory id scheme that we would need to carefully examine.

It seems that Jesus singled out Jerusalem specifically for the judgment that would come upon Israel, and indeed they suffered terribly during the seige of Titus in 70AD. Perhaps this is an indication that when the "fig tree" is restored, we should pay particular heed to what has taken place in Jerusalem - most notably the restoration of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in 1967. If a generation is in fact forty years, then 2007 may be a most interesting year! I do hope so, but I am not a prophet Luke 13:34-35 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem , which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not! 35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until [the time] come when ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Luke 21:20-24 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies , then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles , until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Luke 23:28-31 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem , weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. 29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed [are] the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. 30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. 31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? .

I think one of the devil's best tricks was to get people NOT to believe in him. The devil's power is still the same, but today we have lost the power of the first church ... most churches today don't even believe they can cast out devils, or heal the sick, in the name of Jesus Christ.

The spirit of antichrist has always been in the church ... that's why I believe we can recognize even now what to look for. 1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. Yes, I agree that there is a Satanic trinity ... but remember, "these three are one".

I would be interested to hear your justification of that understanding. The way I understand it, in Luke 25-27, Jesus is speaking about what is called the Great tribulation. He then goes on in the rest of the chapter to tell us to be ready. Luke 21:28-36 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. An interesting little postcript on "the fig tree and all the trees" ... have you noticed how the number of independent countries has increased since WW11? .

The fig tree is dormant in winter, and produces leaves in spring. Trees usually bear a spring crop, and some also bear an autumn crop. Passover is in spring (usually April). It is interesting to note that Titus laid seige to Jerusalem in April 70AD, exactly 40 years after Jesus cursed the fig tree. (Many sources say that Jesus was crucified in 30AD.) This suggests that a "generation" is 40 years.

If (as I believe), the fig tree refers to Israel becoming a nation again, what is the significance of "this generation"? Mat 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. There are some different views, including: A) "this generation" dates from 1948 (Israel established as a nation) B) "this generation" dates from 1967 (Jerusalem restored as the capitial of Israel). C) a generation is forty years D) a generation is seventy years Obviously, A and C cannot be a correct combination. B and C points to 2007 Perhaps I should go back to my previous statement: God will interpret His own Word by bringing it to pass! But it sure is interesting to think about!!! .

Well then, Ahmadinejad is being deliberately very provocative for a purpose ... what do you say it is?

In Mat 21 Jesus curses the fig tree. This was not something that He would normally do, so I think there must be a deeper significance. We don't have to look far to see that Jesus pronounced judgement on Israel, in particular, Jerusalem. Mat 23-34 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. History shows this happened in 70AD. In Mat 24, where the context is prophesying the future, Jesus speaks of the "fig tree" coming back to life. Again, history shows this happened ... Israel re-emerging as a nation after nearly 1900 years. When it comes to prophecy, I believe that God interprets His own Word by bringing it to pass. .

And a happy new year to you, CJ. As I have said previously, I believe that The Revelation points to Rome and the papacy as fulfilling the role of the beast. Of course there have been some good Popes, but the position is one that is open to great abuse by the wrong man. This has been well known since the time of Martin Luther. A title that the pope used for centuries to secure temporal and spiritual power (vicarius filii dei) has the numerical equivalent of 666. I do not believe it will be a personal name, for many names can add up to 666, but rather it is a title that will match all the other criteria (especially Rev ch 13 & 17, and 2 Thes 2) that identify the beast. I see the "antichrist" spirit, the "false prophet", and the "beast" as a progression of the same thing - and all under the control of Satan.

Is there a connection between these two Scriptural references to the "fig tree"? Is there a significance for us today? Mat 21:18-20 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered. And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away! Mat 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

People of influence are well meaning, in that they are trying to reduce friction and violence around the world. Unfortunately, it plays right into the "we should all be one" mentality that eventually will lead to a union of Christian churches. Many will consider that unity is more important than separation from unbelief.

Dennis, I think you are correct about the redeemed being the Bride of Christ - it is not a literal city of buildings and streets. When Jesus said:"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem ..."(Luke 13:34) He was addressing the inhabitants. I think that you a little harsh with some of those who disagree, Dennis. There is a point I would like to discuss concerning what is called the "millennium", as I see it differently, but I am rather reluctant to engage in dialogue as I feel put off by words like "twisting" and "spinning". I find that most people, even when defending a point that is wrong, genuinely want to know more about the Word of God. God bless Ken

The Iranians are not fools - they know what happened in Iraq last time - I don't think they are just sitting there waiting for the bombs to drop! Israel will not be able to stop the Iranian nuclear program - you can be sure there is a clandestine parallel nuclear program up and running in Iran ... well, if I was Ahmadinejad, that's what I'd be doing! I think he's deliberately taunting Israel, trying to draw them into attacking.

Let me ask you - if you were arrested and a microchip was implanted against your will, have you received the "mark of the beast"? If you say yes, then you are saying you are lost. If you say no, then you are acknowledging that the MOB, as referred to in the Scriptures, is not a tangible thing. Any compulsory id scheme is not the MOB the Bible speaks of - it would just be a tool or strategy to carry out the plans of the beast system. The MOB has always been with us. Consider who this verse is referring to. Rev 20:4 I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Who was "beheaded" ... well, we know James and Paul were ... but Stephen was stoned, and Peter was crucified. It has always meant the possibility of death by the beast system for those who remained true to the Word of God ... look at the history of the Inquisition. It is the same MOB all the way through the history of the Christian church, only it will become enforced on a global scale when the beast gains political and economc control at the end time. I would be more worried about being a member of a denomination that does not uphold the true and complete Word of God, than I would about a compulsory id scheme.

Let me try to show you why the "mark" cannot be a physical thing. If the military rounded you and your family up and forced you all to receive a microchip implant, would you say you have received the MOB? If so, you are in big trouble with God! Rev 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. The "mark" must be something that we can receive OR refuse to receive. If it is something that can be imposed on everyone by force, then you will receive the mark whether you want it or not. Even if you were issued an id card, or branded with a tattoo, or implanted with a chip, you still have not taken the mark. It is a condition of your mind and heart. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Look at the things God has asked His people to die for down through the ages. It has always been about being true to His Word. To take the mark of the beast you will be deceived into accepting what is contrary to the Word of God. I feel sure it will involve accepting organisational unity, rather than remaining true to God's Word. I believe the MOB is spiritual, and refers to our attitude/beliefs (forehead) or what we are willing to participate in (right hand). No amount of force can control either of these. Will force be used ... yes, I think so, for the Bible says: "as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed" (Rev 13:15) Imagine a time of devastation: nuclear terrorism?, climate change? a flu pandemic? economic chaos? collapse of law and order?. Compulsory registration and identification could be imposed. But even if you are physically forced to participate in this scheme, you will not have taken the "mark", if you do not willingly co-operate. Whether they feed you to the lions, line you up and shoot you, or implant you with a microchip, as long as you maintain your "witness of Jesus and for the Word of God" you will be saved.

Without digressing into a discussion of "replacement theology", I believe that there is a spiritual seed and a natural seed of Israel. The Revelation teaches a group of faithful Jews, as well as a group of Christians, will be tageted by the beast system: those that keep the commandments of God (believing Jews), and those that have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Gentile Christians). Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. I see that the believing Jews are the same as the "144,000" (Rev 7) and they will be converted to Christianity through the ministry of the two witnesses (Rev 11). All (believing) Israel will be saved.

Rev 13:16-17 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. The devil is the power behind the beast (Rev 13:2), and his main goal is to destroy those who remain true to the Word of God (Rev 12:17). I believe the beast will be very religious (2 Thes 2), and will no doubt even quote Scripture, just like the devil did to Jesus (Mat 4:5-6). One Scripture he will probably use is Jesus' prayer that we all should be one (John 17:22). Some will no doubt be convinced that unity is more important than doctrinal differences, and join with the beast or his image. Others will hold out for the truth and will suffer the consequences. William Branham has said that in a future time a religious union will be given the backing of state power. All those churches who do not belong will have their ability to buy and sell curtailed. This will mean that they will no longer be able to function. How far this will extend into the control of individuals, and what compromises one will need to make to be accepted, remains to be seen. Whatever you perceive the "mark of the beast" to be, just be sure you are ready to give your life for your beliefs ... and possibly the lives of your family.