kenod

Hi Adrian, I have heard that interpretation suggested before but I have difficulties with it for the following reasons: 1. It is true the The Revelation is a book of symbols. This is emphasized by the fact that in certain instances John was told what the symbols represent: dragon = the devil; seas = people; beast = a man; woman = city; heads = mountains. 2. When the interpretation is given, it is not necessary to make a further interpretation, although we then need to identify the person or object referred to. 3. The "heads" (or

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If the "beast" is a man, what form will this "worship" take? Can we imagine in this day and age, people actually worshipping this man as a divine god? It seems to me that this worship will be of a more subtle kind. Perhaps as in the expression: "It is wrong to worship money". By that we mean giving money a place in our lives it should not have - in other words, putting it before the things of God. Will he have such an appealing proposition that most will be prepared to accept what he says even though it is contrary to the Word of God? Or perhaps it will be so deceptive, that many will not even recognize that it is contrary to the Word of God.

That legislation and technology will be used in implementing the goals of the "beast" and his "image", is most likely. Multitudes will be trapped in the beast's schemes, but since the devil is the source of his power, his main target will be those who remain faithful to God. Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The context of The Revelation, from start to finish, is highly symbolic. Virtually nothing in the book is literal. If the "beast" is not a literal wild animal, it seems unlikely to me that the "mark" is a literal, physical mark. I believe the mark, in embryonic form, is already here.

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. It is rather dificult to imagine that "no man" refers to every one of the 6.5 billion people on earth. The Revelation describes a spiritual conflict. I believe that the loss of the ability to "buy or sell" will pertain to those churches and groups who are adhering to the true Word of God. If a church is not given official recognition as an organisation, it will no longer be able to function. This situation occurs in China today, where only churches recognized by the government are permitted to operate. There are many who refuse to submit to these restrictions, and operate as small house churches. On numerous occasions this has resulted in persecution - interrogation (torture) and imprisonment, and even death.

Perhaps I'd better throw away my pacemmaker The reason I asked why you would object to a microchip, is that there may be any number of reasons. To me, it seems a little late to object on the grounds of personal surveillance ... the tax man knows more about me than my wife does! As a Christian, I am willing to abide by any law that does not require me to behave in a way that directly contravenes my faith. I believe the "mark of the beast" will require you to accept (either from conviction or convenience) teaching contrary to the Word of God. That is why I continue to maintain: look for the spiritual significance. I respect those Episcopal (Anglican) congregations who recently separated from their denomination, because to continue to be a part of that system, they would be giving their support to false doctrine (homosexuality, etc). Their ability to "buy and sell" has been greatly impaired. William Branham, whom many regard as a prophet (as I do) said that there will come a time when an ecumenical union will control the Protestant churches in the US (Rev 13:11-18). He called this the "image of the beast" To be a part of a church that joins the union for the sake of being able to "buy and sell", will mean you must accept teaching contrary to the Word of God. In agreeing to this doctrine, you will take the "mark of the beast". Whether one agrees or not ... just keep your eyes open!

Very good point. Personally, I do believe that believers will be "caught up" before the Tribulation. I am trusting God that I will be a part of that .... but I know that not everyone will be. If we believe we are going in the Rapture, should we not still be concerned about those who are "left behind"?

Good point, I actually hadn't correctly read that part...*sigh* it is always when we read to0 fast that we lose the scope of the text. It is interesting that it is through worship that they receive the mark...I'll have to take some time to relook at this more carefully. Thanks Kenod. CJ, here are a few points to summarise some of the things that occur to me concerning the "mark": 1. The mark is related to a form of

CJ, as I see it, we are already forced to accept substantial infringement of our personal liberty, for the sake of convenience or complying with the law. An electronic chip in itself is of no consequence. What it represents must be more than just curtailment of personal freedom. It would need to have a spiritual significance that amounts to worship. The "mark" must in some way pertain to our faith - what we believe about God. Rev 14:9-10 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God

Tom, you may know this already, but the Vulgate, a Latin translation of the Bible in 405AD, translated "caught up" in 1 Thes 4:17, by the word

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Do you think this means every person on the planet (6.5 billion) will be forced to receive a microchip implant, or not be able to buy and sell? That seems unlikely to me, although every person on the planet is required to make a decision about what they believe and how they will act. That

Not exactly certain of your point, but I'm sure you are aware that the Bile speaks of the first and the second resurrections. At the first resurrection, the saints are raised and those who are still living are changed, and together we are all caught up to meet Jesus Christ in the air.

You obviously live in a nice modern Western country. Travel in less developed countries can be very broadening. I believe it is necessary to understand what a "trumpet" is, who is sounding it, and to whom its call is directed. The "last trump" for the Gentile church is the rapture, when She is caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thes 4:16-17).

I agree it is very possible that EU countries could be involved. That may be the meaning of the "ten kings" Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. Nevertheless, we are told "the beast" is a man, and given a number of ways to identify him. In a future world devastated by nuclear terrorism, climate change, a flu pandemic, and economic chaos, a man will emerge with great charismatic leadership qualities. By adding up all the Scriptural references to the beast, I believe that it points to a pope. Why would you personally object to a microchip implant? I believe that The Revelation is describing a spiritual conflict. It will necessarily involve political and economic forces in its working out. At some stage, I see that all churches will be required to be registered to gain official recognition. Of course, that already happens within denominations. You must agree to that church's creed or you will be denied access to the resources of that denomination. In another discussion forum, which claims to be the largest Christian discussion forum on the web, the rules state that I will not be recognized as a Christian unless I am willing to accept the Nicene creed. I cannot, so I do not participate. The danger I see in focusing on a physical "mark of the beast' is that we could overlook the spiritual significance of what is happening.

I already have electronic identification for buying and selling ... it is called a credit card. Also, I have a compulsory licence so I can drive to work to earn money, so I can drive to the shop to spend it! And of course my computer and cell phone are easy targets for the invasion of personal privacy. I can't see why a Christian would object to a microchip implant, other than as a gross violation of civil liberty. In that case it is no longer a spiritual matter, and even the atheists would die to oppose its imposition. It would hardly be a subtle or deceptive move on the part of "the beast". If we compare the way the godly are sealed in their foreheads, I think it gives us insight into how the mark of the beast is received. Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. I don't want to get too anatomical, but the frontal lobes in your forehead are the source of judgement and personality. The mark in the hand is specifically said to be in the right hand, and a Scriptural search of "right hand" indicates that overwhelmingly it is a symbolic reference. Could the mark of the beast involve some form of compulsory registration and identification? Sure, it could. But if you don't look for the spiritual significance behind what is happening, I'm afraid you could be deceived. Just what I believe ....

I don't want to toot my own horn, but since I've retired I spend 3 sometimes 4 days a week, voluntarily helping disabled children and the frail elderly. I believe that Jesus is coming soon, and that just makes me want to do more for Him.

THE BEAST 1. He is a man (Rev 13:18). 2. He has a throne and great authority (Rev 13:2) 3. His position has a continuing succession (Rev 17:8 -

We have to ask why God would punish those who received a microchip implant just so they could feed their families: Rev 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. It seems that "worship" is involved ... worship of the beast and/or his image. We worship anything that we put in God's place. The mark is in the forehead (mind?) and in the hand (doing his will?). Remember that the "right hand" in the Bible is very symbolic. We know that the "man of sin" is associated with the "temple of God". Some take this to be a reconstructed Jewish temple, but I think it is more likely this: 2Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. So, as I see it, adherence to a belief that is not in accordance to God's Word - taking the word of man instead of what the Bible says - is the mark of the beast. When the Bible says: "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins", I believe we are being told to come out of "churchianity" and into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. That does not mean we stop going to church, but we do not put church membership in the place of being born again by the Holy Spirit, for this will bring "the wine of the wrath of God". God bless Ken

Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, One understanding of this verse is that it happened in 1945. Personally, I think the conflict is between "churchianity" and Christianity. No matter what church you go to (even mine) you will find people who are not born again by the Spirit of God. It is not my place to judge individuals, but it is apparent in the general trend. Some Christians are already being forced to come out (Rev 18:4). I saw on tonight's news that some Episcopalian congregations have split from their denomination over the ordination of homosexual clergy, the role of women, and the absolute authority of the Scriptures. When our allegiance to a church denomination supersedes our allegiance to Christ, I believe we take the mark of the beast.

Are there aspects of the Bible you think we should not discuss, Eric? That seems a rather odd attitude to me.

I know there will be a few different ideas on what the "mark of the beast" actually is, and probably there have been discussions on this subject in this forum before. However, I would like to see what others think, and put forward a few ideas of my own. OK, so we can't all be right, but perhaps if we keep in mind the things that are said, we may more easily recognize exactly what the "mark" is when it comes to pass ... if it hasn't already! One of my thoughts is that it will be very subtle ... it could deceive even the elect, if that were possible. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. The Bible begins with deception by a beast (Gen3:1), and it ends the same way. Beneath all the symbolism, it is the same beast: Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world : he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. **************************************** I put "of" in your title for you...

I believe the only way to understand Matthew 24, is to identify the three questions that the disciples asked Jesus: 1. Tell us, when shall these things be" (when one stone shall not be left upon another)? 2. "what shall be the sign of thy coming? 3 (And what shall be the sign) of the end of the world? when shall these things be v15 - 21 Some see a future fulfillment in this, and it may indeed be a compound fulfillment, but history shows us that it happened in 70AD. the sign of thy coming v22-28 This is the coming Jesus' refers to in John 14:3 ("I will come again and receive you unto myself"). In other words, it is the rapture. the end of the world v29-31 This culminates in the return of Jesus Christ to the earth (Rev 19:11-21) to reign as King of Kings for 1000 years (the millennium). A comparison of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 show the same divisions. The only difference is that the Luke places the reference to the rapture in chapter 17. Mat 24:27-28 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. What is the 'lightning"? Well, we know it is very bright light. (Psalm 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path."). We also know that the light of the Gospel travelled from the east to the west. Jesus said: "Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Mat 24:14). I believe this all points to the body/carcase being the Word of God. Some are offended that the Word of God should be described in this way, but we know that the metaphor of food and eating is used in the Scriptures to refer to believing God's word. Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. These are just a few thoughts I wanted to share. I believe it is the Truth, but I respect the fact that others see things differently. God bless Ken

To discuss the significance of the "eagles", one must refer to the context ... a context which I see as the rapture. Luke places Christ's reference to the "eagles", as an answer to a question asked by the disciples: "Where will this happen, that is, where will there be one taken and one left?".(Luke 17:37) Jesus' answer is wherever the "body" is". So we need to understand what "the body" is before we can know where the eagles will be gathered. I have tried to address that in my second post. To me, it indicates a world wide event - wherever believers are gathered around the Word of God. That this is a world wide event is supported by the activities of those who are taken - sleeping, grinding, and working in the field. When this takes place, in some parts of the world it is night, and in others it is day. For an understanding of the word "taken", compare these verses: Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, [Greek: paralambano] and the other left. John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive [paralambano] you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take [paralambano] unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. I will address the issue of the "eagles" in Mat 24 in my next post. God bless Ken

Noah and his family were taken "above" the earth in a place of refuge. They walked out on the destruction of the wicked. Compare Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. It is interesting the word "taken" used in Luke 17:34-37 ("one shall be taken, and the other left") comes from the same Greek word as "receive" in John 14:3 ("I will come again and receive you unto myself"). It is also the same word used in "Fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife" (Mat 1:20).

Did you ever notice that there are two "suppers" mentioned in Rev 19 - the marriage supper of the Lamb (v7-9), - the supper of the great God (v17-18)? Rev 19:6-10 6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. The way I am reading it, those who are "taken" in Luke 17:34-36 are the ones who are "called" to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, before the Tribulation, which culminates in Rev 19:11-21.

CJ, thank you for your reply. I wonder if there is another way of looking at the event described in Mat 24:28 and Luke 17:37. Mark 6:29 And when his disciples heard of it, they came and took up his corpse [Greek: ptoma] and laid it in a tomb. Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase [ptoma] is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Luke 17:36-37 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [soma] is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body [soma] which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. John 6:53-54 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Psalm 103:5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. 1. How do we