graymousey

FresnoJoe, Marnie, Chicagoburbite I would like to thank to all of you for your replies. I am thinking about all what you said, and I do appreciate your efforts.

FresnoJoe whether Baptism is a necessary part of salvation or not, it has nothing to do with 'works'. Salvation is the free gift of God to a penitent person, and Baptism doesn't add anything to it. I know that. My question was, 'when does one receive the Holy Spirit'? At the time he repents his sins and has an intention to turn away from them? Or only after he is baptized? The Scriptures you quote don't answer this question. 4given1, why do you think that Baptism is not necessary for salvation? How can you substantiate it with Scriptures? What do you do with Scriptural examples when people received the Holy Spirit after Baptism? Marine, you say that "One receives the Holy Spirit at the moment of their conversion.." But there are biblical examples when people received the Holy Spirit only after their Baptism. If that is the case, then Baptism IS necessary for salvation, isn't it?

"By Faith Ye Stand" Yes, true. By faith in God's Word, and in His promises we stand. But did He promise salvation independent of baptism? Doesn't the Bible say repent, believe and be baptised? So can one disregard baptism when wants to be saved? Is it really just a formality, or a step of obedience? Or is it part of salvation? When does one receive the Holy Spirit? Which is the moment one gets over from death to life? What is the moment when one becomes the child of God? Before baptism, or after baptism?

Wow. I think I either wasn't clear, or you all misunderstood what I said. Of course that the Bible talks about Baptism! I never said it doesn't. But it doesn't say when one gets the Holy Spirit, the Bible doesn't say which is the moment when one becomes saved. Does it happen when one repents? Does it happen when one makes this deal with Christ? Does it happen only when one gets baptized? The Bible is quiet about that. So, when does one receive the Holy Spirit? Before baptism, or during baptism, or after baptism? When the Lord Jesus was baptised, after His baptism the Holy Spirit descended on Him. The thing is that when one gets baptized, the pastor says that it is just a formality, a symbolic act, a step of obedience, etc... and that it is not part of salvation. But since the Bible is quiet about that, (It doesn't say that Baptism is not part of salvation, nor does it say that it is) it bothers me when they say that.

Start your own Church. Then you can teach what you like. This is not an answer to my question.

I am looking for a denomination, (or group), where people are called to repentance; since the new birth can come about only after one repented and turned away from their sins. This denomination will not assure people about their eternal security, since the Bible doesn't teach that. This denomination I am looking for, will not say that Baptism is only a step of obedience, a symbolic act, a public display of what already had happened between Christ and the believer; but will be quiet on the issue, since the Bible is quiet about it. Does anybody know a denomination or group like that? Your help is greatly appreciated.

While cows miraculously convert grass into milk, man learned to ruin that 'liquid gold' as they mess with it. I am talking about pasturization, and homogenization.

It might be the case, that when they hired you, they couldn't find anybody else suitable for the position, and so, they compromised with your 'non-negotiables,' -- for a while. Is it possible that they might look for somebody, and when they find, they might let you go? After all, their first priority is that the work would be done. What if they give you an ultimatum? Are you willing to give up your job if it comes to that? They probably want somebody who is there when needed.

methinkshe wrote: "Scripture teaches that the husband is the head of the wife, and that although male and female are of equal worth in God's eyes, they differ in terms of their responsibilities before God and therefore have been appointed different degrees of authority. Christian marriages symbolise the union between Christ and His church - the bride. If we overturn God's order by suggesting that husbands and wives have equal authority, do we not undermine the relationship between Christ and the bride? If a woman has the greater, or even equal authority within a Christian marriage, does that not allow the false view that the church has authority over Jesus, her head? And is this not why Paul says that he does not permit a woman to teach in church - i.e. a general assembly of men and women? The implication would be that the bride (the church) could authoritatively teach Jesus Christ, her head. " Well said.

Mutzrein, When one repents and goes to Christ, Christ saves him. Until this time he was tied to Satan by his sinful nature, he was spiritually dead and he was on his way to hell. But now he has become the child of God: His sins are forgiven, he is united with God by the divine nature, and God's Holy Spirit lives in his heart. He has fellowship with God, peace in his heart, and he is pressing forward to follow Christ. Mutzrein wrote: "Yes, repentance is a human decision but it cannot be made without first being God's child." We are dead in sin, and we have an inborn enmity toward God. Before conversion we are His creatures, not His children. Back in the Garden our fellowship with God was broken, and sin separatrf us from God, and tied us to Satan. God's prevenient grace is working in the dead hearts of men, and convicts us of sin, and leads us to Christ. Then we repent, and consequently we become God's children. Without repentance, without a turn around one cannot be His child. Later, as His saved children we still sin, (since our sinful nature is still with us) but now the indwelling Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, and leads us to repentance day by day, and Christ will forgive His children again and again. When a sinner turns to Christ and asks Christ to save him he has to be sorry for his sins, and he has to turn away from them. (As an example, imagine, that I did something very mean to you, and we are enemies. But then I change my mind and I decide that I want to be your friend. So, I go to you and I say that I am sorry for what I did, it was mean of me to do that. But then I continue to be mean to you as if nothing had happened, but now I declare that I am your friend. You can see here how crocked is my way of thinking). The same way, when we turned away from God and sided with His enemy the devil, we were God's enemies. When we want to make peace with God, we have to tell Him how sorry we are, and we have to turn away from sin. We cannot continue to live in sin knowingly. Mutzrein wrote: "Perhaps to aid my understanding of your premise could you please point to where you say, "The Bible states, that when we are born into this world, we already belong to Satan, since our nature is of his nature, and through our nature we are united with him." I would be interested to see the context of this 'statement' in terms of repentance that you claim is necessary in order for 'sinners who want to break away from Satan and make peace with God' as you put it." It is the corollary of the Gospel, that we are sinners, and wicked. Sin is of the devil, and that means that through our sinful nature we are united to Satan. Eccl. 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. God said that we are evil. That is why the Lord Jesus had to die for us. If we wouldn't be, He wouldn't have to come to save us. When we look things from God's perspective, He sees us to be evil and wicked. -- . Our sinful nature separates us from God, and God says that "all our righteousness are like dirty rugs." However, from society's perspective we are not all evil. There are good people and bad people. There are very good people thanks God for them. So, you see there is a difference. We are not good enough to earn our salvation, and God says that we are evil, --but we can do good deeds nevertheless, since we were created to God's image, and we are wonderfully created. But sin had ruined us, and finally damns us, unless we return to God. Genesis 6:5 "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (emphasis mine). In Matthew 7:11 "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in Heaven give good things to them that ask Him?" In Romans 3 it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none that understandeth there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable, there is none that dooeth good, no not one. Their throat is and open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit, the poison of asps is under their lips whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace have they not know, there is no fear of God before their eyes" "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." -- Romans 3:23 "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out many demons and perform many miracles?' Then, I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers!'" -- Matthew 7:22-23 Isaiah 64:6 "But we are ALL as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf' and our iniquities like the wind, have taken us away.." Jeremiah 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good , that are accustomed to do evil." The whole import of the Bible is that we are sinners and evil. When the Lord offers us a new heart, it shows that the old one is not acceptable to Him.

That is true. Repentance is the key to God's heart. To preach a gospel without repentance is an "other gospel," and it produces fake converst.

Isaiah 43, nobody can be saved because he said the "right words." There are no "right words." One is saved when he repents his sins, and turns in his heart to God, and wants to walk on His ways according to God's terms. God took me in, because I went to Him according to His terms and conditions. We can be sure that we are accepted by Christ, if we go on His appointed way to Him. The appointed way is the way of repentance; it results in the new birth, which will produce a changed heart and a changed life. The phrase "we accept Christ" is not in the Bible. Actually He is the One Who has to accept us, and He does that only if we want to break away from Satan's rule, and want to turn away from sin. If we want to cling on to sin, God cannot save us from sin. You don't realize, that due to our fall the fellowship between God and man was broken. God ousted our first parents from His presence. Sin was in the way. To return to God sin has to be taken from the way. The Lord Jesus came to accomplish that, but He cannot do it without our cooperation. We have to want to turn away from sin, and repent. You are mistaken if you think that God welcomes home an unrepentant sinner, who wants to continue to live in sin. If one's heart is turned to God, he would not want to continue to live in sin. At this time one knows that Christ had to die for those sins, and sin doesn't "taste good" in the light of that knowledge. Why did Peter preach, “Repent ye therefore, and be converted” (Acts 3:19)? Why did Paul preach, “God ... now commandeth all men every where to repent” (Acts 17:30)? Or, “[men] should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance” (Acts 26:20)? The Lord Jesus said that repentance was part of the Great Commission. “And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem” (Luke 24:47). Repentance has to be a sorrow for sin. Repentance is a change of mind toward sin so that the sinner no longer intends and/or desires to walk in rebellion against God.

I agree with this and would add that the change of life only comes when you are filled with the life of God. Also sis there is no problem with repentance. It is necessary. But what you presented orginally was not this. You stated one must confess all thier known sins then they can be accepted. That is what my concern was with. I said: "We have to repent every sin we are aware of at conversion. Repentance 'triggers' the new birth. Without repentance the new birth cannot come about. We also have to turn away from those sins, we have to repudiate them..." Yeah, this is the way of salvation.

" I also would hesitate to say the law showed me me, but as Christ stated it will be the Comforter that will "reprove the world" The Law was given in order to reveal sin in us. The Comforter reproves the world of sin, but He can only do that on the basis of the Law. If there is no law, then there is no sin, -- you see?

Sorry if I was slow. No, repentance is not 'works.' Absolutel not. Repentance doesn't only mean to have a change of mind, but this change of mind must always be demonstrated by a changed life. I don't see what is your problem with repentance. God designed a plan, the PLAN OF SALVATION, for those penitent sinners who want to break away from Satan and make peace with God. Although God's justice imposed on them the death sentence for their sins, God's love dropped the charges when His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ paid the death penalty on their behalf by His own death on the cross. Repentance is the key to God's heart. Repentance is a change of heart that always demonstrates itself by a changed life and a willing heart to side with Christ and walk in His ways. When a penitent sinner declares his desire to follow Christ and pleads for forgiveness, Christ saves him. He accepts by faith that Christ paid the death penalty for his sins and so, this person can be forgiven. By faith he dies with Christ to his sins and old ways, and then he rises with Christ to live a new life. This is shown symbolically when he is baptized through immersion. Christ covers him with His own righteousness, and implants the divine nature into his soul by the miracle of His Holy Spirit, Who then takes residence with him and leads and guides this saved, 'newborn' child of God on his way to heaven. The Holy Spirit also testifies together with his spirit that he became the child of God. (Romans 8:16) His sin-nature is still present, but its ways are no longer attractive to him; now his new nature finds joy in obeying God. This is how a lost sinner becomes biblically 'born again.' Until now he was tied to Satan by his sinful nature, he was spiritually dead and he was on his way to hell. But now he has become the child of God: His sins are forgiven, he is united with God by the divine nature, and God's Holy Spirit lives in his heart. He has fellowship with God, peace in his heart, and he is pressing forward to follow Christ.

Sorry if I was slow. No, repentance is not 'works.' Absolutel not. Repentance doesn't only mean to have a change of mind, but this change of mind must always be demonstrated by a changed life. I don't see what is your problem with repentance. God designed a plan, the PLAN OF SALVATION, for those penitent sinners who want to break away from Satan and make peace with God. Although God's justice imposed on them the death sentence for their sins, God's love dropped the charges when His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ (Who is God in human form), paid the death penalty on their behalf by His own death on the cross. Repentance is the key to God's heart. Repentance is a change of heart that always demonstrates itself by a changed life and a willing heart to side with Christ and walk in His ways. When a penitent sinner declares his desire to follow Christ and pleads for forgiveness, Christ saves him. He accepts by faith that Christ paid the death penalty for his sins and so, this person can be forgiven. By faith he dies with Christ to his sins and old ways, and then he rises with Christ to live a new life. This is shown symbolically when he is baptized through immersion. Christ covers him with His own righteousness, and implants the divine nature into his soul by the miracle of His Holy Spirit, Who then takes residence with him and leads and guides this saved, 'newborn' child of God on his way to heaven. The Holy Spirit also testifies together with his spirit that he became the child of God. (Romans 8:16) His sin-nature is still present, but its ways are no longer attractive to him; now his new nature finds joy in obeying God. This is how a lost sinner becomes biblically 'born again.' Until now he was tied to Satan by his sinful nature, he was spiritually dead and he was on his way to hell. But now he has become the child of God: His sins are forgiven, he is united with God by the divine nature, and God's Holy Spirit lives in his heart. He has fellowship with God, peace in his heart, and he is pressing forward to follow Christ.

Your very welcome! 1.In the mirror of the law I realized that I am a sinner and condemned to hell. I agreed with God that I am a sinner. I accepted Christ terms for salvation, and I repented my sins, and had a determination to follow Christ. So I was born again. After that I have failed many times, but I went back to Christ again and again and He forgave me again and again. I praise Him for that! 2.Maybe I left some out, I don't know, but the point is that I intended to turn away from sin, and I agreed with God concerning sin. Later the Holy Spirit brought my unrepented sins to my attention, and then I repented them. He still does that, it is amazing that sometimes I remember something that happened long ago, and it never bothered me before, and all at once it bothers me. Then I repent it. The point is that whenever the Holy Spirit covicts me of sin, I must have a willing heart to turn away from that sin. The child of God cannot say that 'I want to keep this one...' 3.The Bible doesn't say (neither do I) that we have to have a list, (although it is a good idea), but to condemn sin in our life, and have a willing heart to stand against sin, and demonstrate this penitent attitude with a changed life. At conversion one has to make a deal with Christ; we have to give Him our sins (and He lets them to be nailed on the cross, and in exchange Christ gives us His own righteousness. This "exchange" cannot happen unless we give our sins; which is repentance. God promised, that if we confess our sins He will forgive.

"But God is up on His throne in Heaven, looking down on me, and He sees the one sin I am not willing to give up. Because of this (even though my heart is willing), He says, "No can do. Won't let you in. You need to clean it ALL up." If you don't give up every sin that you are aware of, then what you say is not true, then your heart is NOT willing. It is not God Who will not take you in; it is the unrepented sin that will prevent you from entering. God accepts sinners, but never together with their sins. Sin must be put down and left behind at the cross, and cannot enter into God's Kingdom. This is exactly the point: God wants to eradicate sin from His Universe. It is written: No sin can get in. This doesn't mean that after salvation one will never sin. We have the sinful nature, and we will sin till in this body. But the whole point in salvation is to have a willing mind to turn away from sin. Christ will forgive every repented sin again, and again, and again. But we have to have the will to side with Christ. "I've never talked to anyone who has not wanted to sin--to at least a certain degree." Our old nature loves sin, no question about that. But at the new birth we are given the divine nature. We were talking about the time preceeding the new birth. At that time one has to have a determined mind to turn away from sin, and to walk with Christ. After the new birth we have two natures: The sinful one we were born with, and the newly implanted divine nature. These two are deadly enemies. Our will presides over them, and gives ascendency to one. Scripture tells us to grow on God's Word, in order to strengthen our new nature, and at the same time we are instructed to mortify our sinful nature by starving it. Remember, that the child of God died with Christ for sin, and resurrected with Christ to a new life. He must side with his new nature that hates sin. Of course that we fail again and again. But when we do, we always can go back to the Lord Jesus Who would forgive us, and cleanse us. "I guess my God is more loving and accepting and gracious than yours. " The God of the Bible is loving and accepting when one turns to Him with a penitent heart. Sinners who don't repent are condemned and God's wrath is on them. (John 3:36) The key to God's heart is repentance. But never will God accept anybody who wants to stay with sin. You cannot have it both ways; you have to choose, either sin, or Christ's righteousness. "Shell we continue in sin that grace may abound?" asks the Apostle Paul. Of course not. "How shell we, who dead to sin live any longer therein?" (Romans 6:1-2) "Look at Jesus and His life and His actions. He didn't demand anything but belief from people." You are mistaken here. "The devils also believe and tremble.." The Lord Jesus said that "except ye repent, ye will likewise perish.." The message of John the Baptist also was: "Repent ye..."

Isaiah 43:4 wrote: "What if, when I come to Christ, there's one sin I'm aware of and don't repent of it? Am I then not saved? I am afraid that the Bible is clear about that. Psalm 66:18 "If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me." Proverbs 15:29 "The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous." Proverbs 28:9 "He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination." John 9:31 "Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth." If we "leave one out" as you put it, then God is waiting. Conversion is a 180 degree turn around. What we see as sin we must turn away from before Christ would take us in. Every sin is of Satan. We cannot have it both ways. One is either with God or with Satan. "If someone is truly convicted of the Holy Spirit of the need for salvation, when you sit down to pray with that person, do you really tell them they need to repent of all known sins .." You see, when one is told that God gives eternal life for free, and you have to do absolutely nothing, that is a very tempting offer. Who would be so stupid to refuse it? "Just say this prayer" they say, "and now you have eternal security." But that is pure deception. When you say that one is "truly convicted of the Holy Spirit of the need of salvation" then maybe you are talking about such scenario. But really, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, and of our lack of righteousness, and that Judgement Day is coming, and when one is convicted of all that, then he wants to go to Christ on His terms; of which the first is repentance. If Christ cannot save us from wanting to live in sin, then He cannot save us at all. For Nicodemus the Lord said that he must be born again. The new birth cannot come about without turning away from Satan, and turning to God. That is repentance. So, you see, repentance was part of it what the Lord Jesus said to Nicodemus. "If it is so essential, why would Jesus leave it out?" He did not. But we have to examine the Word of God as a whole, and we cannot separate a verse, or a chapter, and build a doctrine around it. We must look at the Message as a whole. "I don't think man crushing others with repentance, essential or not, is the way to lead someone to Christ" Well, don't forget that sin separated us from God in the first place. Sin is in the way. "Your iniquities separate you from your God...." "your sins hid God's face from you..." (paraphrased). So, when one wants to make peace with God and wants to change Masters (from Satan, to God) then sin is the first thing that has to be dealt with. It is really simple and logical. "Let God do the work; we don't have to." You are deceiving yourself. Although it is true that God's Holy Spirit is working in our hearts, but His mandate is to convict us of sin, and turn our eyes to Christ, Who can save us from sin. The whole Bible, both OT, and NT tell us over and over and over, that we must turn away from sin, and that we have to repudiate sin and walk in God's ways. We are a lost race, we are hell bound sinners, and unless we turn around and repent, we cannot be born again. This is the Bible's Message. It seems to me that you are confusing works with repentance. Our repentance doesn't take away from Christ's merit. Salvation is free for the repentant sinner. If one is not repentant, Christ cannot forgive him.

Isaiah43:4 wrote: " have felt God's love and peace many, many times after a night out drinking. I didn't repent, and then receive His blessing. I felt His love, and then I repented. If repentance is a prerequiset (sp?) of blessings and salvation, the work would be ours, not God's. And we KNOW we cannot do anything to earn salvation. When I repented, it was real. I could not have made it more real if I tried. Did it last? Not usually. But I repented. I "changed my mind" on how I was going to live my life. If you want to go to a church that portrays God with a whip in one hand and a club in the other, go to an independant fundamental baptist church. You'll find that god there almost every time. My God isn't so big on the "rules" of repentance. He's shown me that over and over again. My God is big on love. He understands, when humans don't, and they point fingers. He understands that the sins I commit are no greater simply because others can see them, than other Chrisian's sins that are hidden from view." You are forgetting that God is holy, and sin hater. God loved us IN THAT, that He sent Christ to save us. Those who are not saved by Christ are under God's condemnation. Christ saves us from sin. If somebody is not saved from wanting to live in sin, he is not saved at all. The peace you felt after a night out drinking was not from God. Repentance is not a "work." Sin separates us from God, and when we repent, that separating 'sin-wall' gets out of the way, and so, we can have fellowship with God. We left God by our free will, and so, we must return to God (on His terms) also by our free will. There is only one God, so, when you speak about "your god" I am not sure what you mean. God loves His own, those who repented their sins and turned to God with the desire to make peace with God. God gave us His Law in order to reveal sin in us. God tells us that the wages of sin is death. This is a serious business. If we repent, God forgives us for Christ's sake, because He is merciful and kind. But God has zero tolerance toward sin. The Bible is very clear about that. We cannot live knowingly in sin and yet claim that we have God's peace in us. If your "god is not so big on the rules of repentance" then please check your Bible again. God and sin cannot coexist. Christ died so that He would be able to dress every repentant sinner into His own righteousness.

"Praying that your prayers will be answered soon." Thank you Horizoneast. Isaiah 43:4 wrote: "I don't know if you meant this the way I took it, but it sounds like you're saying we need to break with sin before we can accept Christ. I.e. clean up your act and then come to God." We have to repent every sin we are aware of at conversion. Repentance 'triggers' the new birth. Without repentance the new birth cannot come about. We also have to turn away from those sins, we have to repudiate them, we have to hate them. But then, after the new birth, when the Holy Spirit takes residence in one's heart, He will point to sins in our lives that we were not aware of. The Holy Spirit is like a reflector light in our hearts, and the child of God see sin as He sees it. As our mind is getting renewed day by day, we will identify more and more sins in our lives, and as soon as we do, we have to side with our new nature. The point is, that as soon as I am reminded of a sin, I have to repent it, and clean it up. This is a life long process as the Lord cleanses us, and makes us ready to heaven.

To he original poster: The Lord Jesus, whenever they wanted to stone Him, He walked away. As of me, I would do likewise, but I would run as fast as I can, while praying that Lord help me, save me...

graymousey

Vickilynn wrote: "Shalom Gray, "There is nothing wrong with the word denomination, it's just that too many Christians are more denominational that Christian. IOW, the focus is on the denomination, the church, instead of the Word and G-d.." Shalom Vickilynn, Although this is not the subject of this thread, but the reason that there are denominations is doctrinal differences. When I search for a 'good' church, I have to choose one that agrees with God's Word, and follows nothing else but God's Word. Not every denomination does that. I wouldn't want to belong to a denomination where not God's Word is only authoritative. Mutzrein wrote: "I have to ask the question. Is repentance a human decision?" Yes, it is a human decision. Absolutely. If it were not, then we would be only puppets. To be born of God needs our cooperation; and repentance is the only thing that can trigger this new birth. Without repentance there is no new birth. "We don

"Anyone thinks this way ?" What you say is biblilcal. God's anger is pent up against those who refuse His salvation. Since the Lord Jesus came, for two thousand years now, is God's time of mercy. But when this time will expire, then those who are not covered under Christ's Blood, will have to face God's wrath. God's wrath is His total intolerance toward sin. God is going to erradicate sin from His Universe. Those who choose sin over Christ will have to face God's wrath.