Beta

What exactly are you saying, then, that those in Hell have no consciousness? Why then is Hell described as the place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth? Kind of hard to weep and gnash your teeth if you're unconscious. Yes they have consciousness when they first experience fire just as we have now when a fire-victim , before a person completely burns up. I don't think we are told just how long the wicked will suffer in a fire but the fact is no human , no soul could withstand eternal burning. There comes a point when they will die and become ashes under the feet of the saints just as scripture says Mal.4 v 3. Scripture says the soul that sins shall die Ez.18 v 4, 20. That is all I'm saying, agreeing with scripture.

OPENLY CURIOUS I think you need a couple lessons in the second death that plainly teaches that the wicked will live eternally as well they also will be resurrected from the grave and stand at the judgment of God and be judged and will be thrown into the lake of fire to burn forever according to Revelation 20:14-15 Galatians 6:7-10 Revelation 22:14-15 For we all will live forever believers and non-believers will live for eternity either eternally in heaven the New Jerusalem or in eternal damnation the lake of fire that burneth forever eternal torment. God's breath in us that we so freely breath in and out of our bodies is God's Spirit in us wherewith we move and have our being without his breath his spirit in us we would have no life at all from God. That is not an accusation that is a fact and when he takes his life his presence from us we give up the ghost the spirit and return to God whence gave it to us to start with. 2 Thessalonians 4:14 our bodies sleep but want stay permanent in that state OC OC, thank you for your detailed reply but it would really help if we could keep our posts shorter so we can sort each disagreement separately. Far too much stuff in long posts. But let me say first of all that I never once said our soul is something eternal inside us. Please go back and check that it was someone else saying that. My whole point is that our soul is linked with our body and scripture repeatedly says our soul can and will die if we continue in sin. Please see scripts. Gen.3 v 19, Job 34 v 15, Ez.18 v 4, 20, Mat.10 v 28, Mal.4 v 3. Saying the wicked will burn for ever would negate those scriptures referring to a mortal soul. How would you explain them please ? You quote ; it is appointed unto man once to die and then the resurrection - no - and then the judgement Heb.9 v 27, lets stick to what the Word says or it could confuse. You say soul and spirit go back to God - the word says it is the spirit that goes back to God, no mention of the soul. Eccl.12 it is important not to confuse the issue by adding to scripture. You mention Rev.20, Rev.22, Gal.6, - not one of them support eternal / everlasting torment / burning for the wicked. Please note again that I am not disputing eternal hell-fire, but the fact that the wicked will burn for ever in it. Scripture plainly says the soul that sins will die. It does not say anywhere it will live and burn for ever in hell. Sharing hell-fire with the devil the wicked have a part in his fate but will not themselves burn for ever . Having read Revelation I do know about the second death .

How many times do I have to say it ? YES THERE IS A SPIRIT IN MAN . Job 32 v 8 YES THE LORD FORMED THE SPIRIT OF MAN WITHIN HIM. Zech. 12 v I never said otherwise. Hope this satisfies.

Of course there is a hell, the Bible says so. No one is disputing hell or hell-fire. What is not scriptural is eternal torment since man will not have eternal consciousness when faced with hell-fire. But the wicked will suffer eternal punishment in death , quite different from eternal torment fully conscious. Being dead for ever IS the eternal punishment And just another script. about the mortal soul Acts 3 v 23, and it shall come to pass that every SOUL which will not HEAR that Prophet (Jesus) shall be destroyed from among the people.

The HS is different than our spirit. If you can produce Scripture proving that we have no spirit at all before conversion, I'd be happy to take a look at it. We have to be born again to be forgiven our sins, cleansed from all unrighteousness, and adopted into the family of God. If you were to read my first post you will see my ref. to our (human) spirit plus scriptures. The Bible says there is a spirit in man ( given us for comprehension, not eternal life) Yes we have to be born again and have our sins forgiven and yes we are to be born into the Family or Kingdom of God. I don't think we have a problem here, it arose when you mentioned conception and nothing else. I asked you to expand on that some more. Was not sure which conception you ref.to, human or spiritual - the Bible calls it ' begetting '.

Hello Beta, You have it all wrong and backwards as you are mixed up it is plain for me to see. man is made up a three part being those three parts are body, soul and spirit you will find this in the book of 1 Thessalonians 5:23--"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." In the book of Genesis God formed man out of the dust of the ground being he built and created the body of Adam out of the dirt and when he was done building and molding the body of Adam it say that God breathed into that body that he created and when God put his breath into that body it was at that time Adam became a living soul. Adam had a body and a spirit and a soul after God breathed into him the breath of life. the body was form of the dust our flesh our spirits are who we are inside this body of clay who we really are our personalities and our soul is our minds wills and intellect the soul and spirit will never die they will in fact live forever as it tell us in the book of 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 Philippians 1:23-24 to be absent from our bodies is to be present with the Lord our bodies return to the dust from whence they came and they decay and return to the dust of the ground. But the spirit and soul the person inside living it that body does not ever die for that life returns back to the Lord upward who gave it to us to start with you can read this in the book of Ecclesiastes 3:21; 12:7 3:21--""who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" 12:7--"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." It is not our soul that put on immortality. But it is at the resurrection that we will recieve a glorified body as our soul and spirit will be reunited with our bodies but they will not be bodies of mortal men like we live in now in the flesh but we will be reunited and given a glorified body like Jesus had when he was resurrected from the dead on the third day a spiritual body without flesh and blood. as this mortal shall put on immortality will will have a body that will never ever be able to die get sick feel sorrow no pain no more death sickness disease heart aches no more crying and it will never ever again be able to be tempted with evil as there will be no evil present when this mortal flesh shall put on immortality and shall live for ever in heaven in the presence of the Lord. the same is true for the wicked how ever they will have to spend eternity in torments a place where there is gnashing of teeth outer darkness away from the presence of the Lord a place of weeping and wailing if they do not accept the Lord Jesus Christ in this life. So it is not our souls that put on immortality as our souls and spirits that live on the inside of this fleshly that goes back to God who gave them to us. While our earthly fleshly bodies goes back to the grave from whence they came and returns to dust and it is at the resurection our bodies will be raised again and at that time our mortal bodies that went back to the dust will put on immortality and our souls and spirit will be joined unto our glorified bodies as this mortal shall put on immortality. Pilippians 3:21 Romans 8:23 OC Not quite as mixed-up as you think OC since I agree with much you are saying.I take note of the scriptures you mentioned but sometimes the wording is a little unclear as to the precise meaning and other scriptures have to be considered to throw a bit more light on a subject. Eccl. says nothing about our souls going back to God - only our spirit, please note. You say our soul is something eternal inside us yet Job 33 says v 20 so that his (man's) life abhores bread and his (man's) soul dainty meat, v 22 yes his soul draws near unto the grave and his life to the destroyers. Here we have life and soul linked together just as in Gen.2 v 7 = a living Being motivated by wind/air - not H.SP.power. Please read v 27, 28, 30. Clearly a soul can eat and it can die. But you are right in saying immortality is given in the resurrection but not to the wicked - so they will not be tormented eternally. This is a wicked accusation against a merciful loving God. There is no scripture saying our spirit will be returned to us (presumably to give us eternal life ?) We will only become immortal through God's Holy Spirit in us.

So what happens to all the scriptures referring to God's Holy Spirit ? Acts 2 v 38, 5 v 32, Why do we need to be born again of and by God's own H.SP. if we already have an eternal spirit? Can you be a little more precise ?

I for one do not consider the physical body and the soul as being the same thing. I believe that is what you are saying. ( the body and soul are the same ) So if this is what you believe, what happens to the non believer when they die? The bible tells us there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Do you not believe this? Just asking. Yes that is what I read in the Bible and I have quoted relevant scriptures to support my belief, esp. Job 33 The Bible is quite clear what happens to the unbeliever, the wicked and disobedient, they return to dust in Gehenna-fire.

I can see where we come apart - you believe in man's eternal spirit but you don't say when and how we get it. Certainly Jesus wants us to live for ever but it is not a cut and dried certainty, the wicked prove that. Are you saying we have this et.sp.from birth ? If so why do we need to repent, be baptized and believe the Gospel to receive God's own eternal Holy Spirit ? Yes God has eternity planned for man, but not in hell-fire. We are not given GHSP to burn in hell, we receive it to enter the Kingdom of God. The wicked and disobedient do not have it when faced with the lake of fire, that is why they burn up to become ashes under the feet of the saints Mal.4.( and don't scare me with the lifespan you mention , I'm too close to the latter ) I believe that the scriptures you mention have a metaphorical content.

I'm listening. Tell me what you believe to be true and what you believe to be a lie. Not to be rude, but if you're going to sit and wait for responses....you might want to hit your refresh button a few times....just a thought. If you could read my first post you will see where I'm coming from I explained the soul (body) and the function of the human spirit since it is not God's HSP. We receive that upon repentance and obedience to God when we are baptized (and by that is not meant infant christening) By the way I'm not sat here waiting - busy elsewhere.

How about the truth ? Where is immortal soul mentioned in the Bible ? I have listed several scriptures that man is mortal and the soul can and does die. Jesus himself said so Mat.10 v 28. Since it is an important issue relevant to our salvation how come people are so disinterested and blindly continue to believe a lie ?

This is truly amazing. There are several hundred million people beliving in the immortal soul ( there must be at least half a dozen on this forum ) yet not one considers it important enough to convince me of it. Not worth saving, huh ? Glad this decision is not left to mortal man.

Far more scriptures refer with certainty to ' mortal man ' than the few ambiguous ones people count on to believe in the immortal soul. In the very beginning God said : for dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return Gen.3 v 19. This was said AFTER God had created Adam a ' living ' soul Gen.2 v 7 motivated / activated by a breath of air / wind. Therefore when we stop breathing we are de-activated and die, become lifeless. Scripture says man was made a ' living soul ' through wind-power blown into us by God. Take that away and we are a ' dead soul ' an inactive Being. God only has immortality now 1Tim.6 v 16 . Scripture says the soul (body) can die or be destroyed and return to dust, Job 34 v 15, Ez.18 v 4, 20. Mat.10 v 28. Gen.3 v 19. Mal.4 v 3. Obed.v 16. Job 33 describes a soul as a human being suffering human conditions. What we find next is ' a spirit in man '. This spirit gives man awareness and comprehension, the ability to understand, Job 32 v 8. it is FORMED in man by God for that purpose - not to make us immortal. Zech.12 v 1. This human spirit is primarily to give man comprehension. By this spirit we can begin to understand God, to realize we need to be given HIS HOLY SPIRIT and until we get it we have not eternal life in us. Obedience to God is a requirement in order to get it Acts 5 v 32. False beliefs do away with many scriptures relevant to salvation and burning eternally in hell-fire is one of them. It is sinful and wicked to believe such a thing of a merciful loving God who never had any such intention. People have assumed it because the wicked will share eternal hell-fire with evil spirits who can not die - but man being physical / material can and will die,if he has not repented when he had the chance. How could they become ashes under the feet of the Saints if they burned eternally ? Mal.4.

I can see what you mean,,but Jesus is not limited to a physical glorified body for all time. Walking through closed doors proves that. He can be pure Spirit when he chooses. He will change to a glorified body on his way down through the clouds as he did going up Acts 1.

Do you think Jesus has a physical body like we do now? I want to be like Jesus. I do not expect to BE Jesus and therefore exactly like Him. Where do you think Jesus is if He has a physical body? Well from the Word of God we know that Jesus is now in heaven sitting on the right hand of God the Father preparing places for the Saints to be resurrected at his second coming. He does not now have a physical body like us but is Spirit. Flesh and blood can not enter the KoG. None of us will be Jesus because we will have our own gloryfied body and own identity working under Christ in the Ko Heaven.

It says nothing about livestock in my Bible. Gen.2 v 19 . . . and whatsoever Adam called every living creature . . . wouldn't that include all without listing each species in particular ? v 20 specifically refs to larger animals who have similar ways of re-producing as man, that's why it says there was no helpmeet among them for Adam. God did not want any sexual relationship between man and beast, and it is blatantly obvious there never could be with insects and the like so they did not figure in that equation at all.

I have just read the above post and am totally mystified as to ' soul sleep ' - never heard of it though I have read the Bible regularly these past 30 years . Perhaps I should go back a few posts to find out what people believe - not that I would if it's not in the Word.

should we perhaps be on another topic to discuss the ' immortal soul ' ?

Man does have an immortal soul. Revelation proves this. The beast and false prophet were STILL in the lake of fire 1000 years after they were thrown into it. Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Notice this, the devil, along with the beast and false prophet are tormented "for ever and ever." Matthew 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Punishment obviously cannot be everlasting if the soul is not also everlasting. the soul of man is in fact immortal in the sense that it will "exist" forever, regardless of whether the person goes to heaven or hell. Those sent to hell will not have any light or any presence of God whatsoever, as Jesus said they would be cast into "outer darkness" and there would be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and they would "gnaw their tongues for pain".

Did Jesus' body decompose in the grave ? If we want to be like him we need a body. We can not be like God before we are like Jesus since HE is our Saviour. One step at the time, there is no skipping before walking.

1Cor.3. our Salvation does not depend on our works, but they are never-the-less taken into consideration since they have to do with our Reward. If any man's work abides (by fire) he shall receive a reward v 14, if any man's work shall be burned he shall suffer loss BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED yet so as by fire.v 15. ALL who have been building will be saved but those with better materials to better positions and those with inferior materials to lesser positions in the KoG. To lose one's Salvation is if they have done nothing at all and have no good works of any kind. Quite a few Parables refer to these situations. People do not realize that there is work to be done in the KoG, it will not be a place of idleness. Jesus says in Jh.14 he has gone to prepare a place for us, a work-place non-the less even as his Father works and christ himself works hitherto. So we are saved by Grace but rewarded according to works, good works approved by God. Evil works stemming from our own opinions and disobedience also earn something = death, eternal death. (that is not eternal life in hell-fire, man does not have an immortal soul Mat.10 v 28) ALL shall receive knowledge of Christ before their final judgement.

Perhaps we are forgetting that the Kingdom of God is also called the Kingdom of Heaven, they are one and the same. To be established here on earth. First Christ returns to deal with all worldly opposition during his millennial reign after which the earth is cleansed by fire to be purified for the coming of God Himself, Rev.21. All Humans willing to be converted will have been changed by then and have eternal life in the KoG or Ko Heaven which will be this entire Planet. It will be a God-ruling Kingdom and the Jewel of the entire Universe.

Rev.21 does not say or suggest that man goes up to heaven but rather that God comes down. We do not need books written by men to find the truth, God should be the first we believe - it is honouring the first Commandment.

1Thes.4 v 16 also says the Lord himself shall DESCEND from heaven and we will rise to meet him, similar to a welcome committee. He is not coming down to meet US. Another script. says his reward will be with him. Jesus is coming to the earth and here we will be kings and priests under him - not up in heaven. Here we will have a glorified body as Christ himself - at least for the thousand years while converting the world. Why do people always want to know everything into some distant future while passing up the importance of the present ? God gives us enough to concentrate on now in order to have a part in it.

I don't think we need worry about going to heaven for at least 1000 years after Christ's return to earth when he sets up the KoG here to rule for the millennium. 1Thes.4 v 16, Rev.5 v 10, Rev.20 v 6.(v5).