Isaiah 6:8

I was reading the other day in Genesis and noticed that Joseph was sold to the Ishmaelites, and/or the Midianites and controversy aside of which of them it was, they both trace back to Abraham. Ishmael and the Midianites trace back to Abraham's son Midian, who was born to him to his wife Keturah after Sarah died.

Knowing there is little without meaning in the Bible, I was wondering what the significance to Joseph being sold to close family, if any...

Any thoughts?

Baby Drool and spit up on my shirts, a diaper bag everywhere I go, and an arm thats stronger then the other from constant rocking.... at LAST I am a dad, and Loving it!

I am Now Last, and it's not the last you have seen me on the last thread... 

wishes he still had his boots...  did you all see this spree...

We had a name just not time to post here it is! 

Caleb (Whole Hearted or Faithful) Benjamin (Son of my right hand) !!!

He has already peed on me while changing his diapers more times then all my brothers did when I changed theirs...  

At LAST  We have a name for Baby! Caleb (Whole Hearted or Faithful) Benjamin (Son of my right hand) !!!

Thank you all, watch this space for his name!

Or days... or weeks....

Izzy , go and change baby Bee's nappy.

 

You do don't have time for other things now. 

 

 

 

My wife and Mom agree, this is my Last last for a few hours....

The argument that we need birth control because so many children are neglected...is a very similar argument to one of the tenants of abortion rights. We need abortion because so many children are neglected.

In my opinion, natural law has been neglected, and this idea of birth control has made parents feel as though they can have the sex without the responsibilities that GOD made with it. I am very sorry about what your son had to go through, but I doubt that you would say your son never should have lived. Your son is made in the image and likeness of God.

It is simple...you don't want the children, don't have the sex. The one man in the Bible who wanted the sex without the children was struck dead because of it. This is not pleasing to God.

No Onan wanted to have sex with his brothers  widow. He could have refused to marry here and past on his "Right" to have her as a wife and let another one of his brothers marry here. He knew that if he had children with her, they would be considered his brothers, children and they would inherent property/wealth that would not stay with his family line. He chose to take the women, use her and then try to not give her anything in return. This was not about birth control at all, it was about his act of using the women for sex and not giving her a child as was his duty by the law of the time. 

As for chemical birth control, my wife had to use it because of a genetic issue to keep from going sterile. I just had my firstborn son 48 hours ago, and he would not have been able to be born with out the use of these to keep my wife from losing her fertility.

oh yes, last....

I like ocean fishing here... its free! biggest catch I caught was a passing boat, someone did not follow speed limits and caught my line as they went by way to fast!!!

A Thinker!

Good We need one of those in my family...

At long LAST I am a Father!!!!

Okay he was born on July 13 2013 at 10:10 am delivered by emergency c-section. He 3290 grams 50 centimeters long, or 7.25 pounds and 19.68 inches long. We still do not agree on a name!!! So for now its Baby Bee. And and here are two pictures!

Proud Daddy! Minutes after cutting the cord!

Waiting in the Hospital for my wife to be have her labor induced.  So as a first time,(Finally) Dad I get to be last!

Hi Steven. I feel as if you did not really read what I posted, and feel that you have ignored the scripture I posted and the context in which I posted it. I am going to ask if you can reread my post and consider it. I am not going to reply anymore as i care more as keeping you as a brother and a friend then being right. The only reason I tried to debate with you is that I do have a rapport with you, and I felt as if you may listen to what I had to say as you have at other times. This time has proved to not be one of those times so I do not want to push and debate with you as much as discuss. I am going to post my summery one more time.

To wrap up, I believe all Christians should manage their money wisely. If they do, by the nature of how money works they will eventually become wealthy. That is to say if you spend less than you make and save money, and do not ever get into debt you will eventually become wealthy. This is not chasing riches, this is not making money the center of your life, this is slowly over time with wisdom and hard work managing the money the Lord has given to you and increasing it, just like the good steward. With this money you can then turn around and sew it into the kingdom, and be a blessing. To have wealth, just to be wealthy is putting your money where God should be is most definitely wrong. To have God at the center of your heart, and have HIs wealth to manage to take care of your family, and to give, is a wonderful thing and something many in the Church today are missing. Too many babies are being tossed out with the bathwater on this one. 

 

All we have comes from God. All our money, our basic needs, everything and we are called to be Managers of the money. So no, you should never be wealthy. This would mean it was OUR money, however it is GOD's MONEY, he owns it, we simply MANAGE it, and many mismanage it. The word is clear, those who manage well will be given more to manage. Most would see this as wealthy, however its just a greater responsibility. 

I came to this conclusion by studying my Bible using this method of study. 

I believe it to be the most accurate method of study.

 

To wrap up, I believe all Christians should manage their money wisely. If they do, by the nature of how money works they will eventually become wealthy. That is to say if you spend less than you make and save money, and do not ever get into debt you will eventually become wealthy. This is not chasing riches, this is not making money the center of your life, this is slowly over time with wisdom and hard work managing the money the Lord has given to you and increasing it, just like the good steward. With this money you can then turn around and sew it into the kingdom, and be a blessing. To have wealth, just to be wealthy is putting your money where God should be is most definitely wrong. To have God at the center of your heart, and have HIs wealth to manage to take care of your family, and to give, is a wonderful thing and something many in the Church today are missing. Too many babies are being tossed out with the bathwater on this one.

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One doesn't need money to sow into the kingdom.

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Yes I know. However since the topic is money I speak of it. Sadly many many christians do not sew into the kingdom at all in any way shape or form. 

The kingdom demands more than merely keeping many commandments; if we recognize Christ as our King, we must surrender to him everything we have and are (compare L. Johnson 1981:17). Whether he then allows us to use some of what he has given us is his choice. Disciples do not always lose all possessions upon conversion-but they lose all ownership of them, for they themselves belong to a new ruler.

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Matt/Cost-Discipleship

The Old Testament was even with restraint unto the King!

Deut 17:17

17 Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself.

NKJV

Yes. The key word was himself. Solomon ignored this whole verse. He multiplied both wives and wealth for himself, look at the extravagance of his house that far outshone the house of the Lord. David brought in a lot of wealth, for the Lord and his people. David brought in most of the wealth for the building of the temple, and yet his heart was not deceived.

The New Testament says with riches also deceit...

Matt 13:22

22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world AND the deceitfulness

of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

NKJV

The riches were secondary. The cares of the world came in, and the riches, deceived him, in my opinion, because of his lack of trust in the Lord. Worrying about material cares makes riches seem like a good way to fix your problems. As we both agree your real problems can never be fixed by riches. Again the Riches in and of themselves are not evil, its the heart of the person.

There will be those who say in their own strength I will have riches but God says

1 Cor 10:12-13a

12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man;

NKJV

This verse does not apply to only wealth. But to all temptations.

The NT seems to paint a different picture Izzy or at least for my understanding it does

Love, Steven

Again look at my list of wealthy in the Bible where they deceived by their wealth? If it was so evil, why did God make them wealthy and even give back to Job more than he had before he lost everything?

Remember that they way we deal with money in any amount shows our heart issue. I know multi-millionaires that there wealth has no hold on them and i know people who are drowning in debt only to try to appear well off or wealthy. To me that is just as much a deceit and a trap. For their heart is in not in wealth but appearing wealthy.

Remember the key is this verse.

Mark 7:20

20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

For an example of another issue that there is no real debate on, that is sexual temptations. Sex, in the context of marriage is a good and desirable thing. However outside of the covenant of marriage it is an destructive thing and In proverbs the wise man describes the adulteress as deceitful. You see again wealth in the proper context is fine. I believe if you are blessed with great wealth, as Job was it is a blessing to be used to bless others. Again I must emphasise that if you remember that you do not own the wealth but the Lord and you are a Manager of the wealth he gives you to manage.

Lets read, and remember that a Talent was a measurement of money, worth about 9 years of wages.

The Parable of the Talents

14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

I think my overall point is this. Many Christians do not handle their money well. They do what average people do and that is spend money they don't have, on things they don't need to impress people they don't like. Many Christians are broke, and they feel that this is somehow godly as being wealthy is my its nature "Evil" as is money. They mishandle the money God gives them to manage, and so God will not give them more to manage. Even if they manage money a little better they avoid trying to have extra to give, again because in their head Money and wealth in its nature is a trap and evil.

Remember you must take things in context and the whole word, not just part. Also look at biblical examples, and they only people whose wealth was a problem had other heart issues, every single one of them, the wealth issue was a big but secondary issue.

It was a wealthy man in my case who paid out of pocket for my entire time as a missionary. The missionary bases new extension campus was paid for primarily by wealthy christians.

To wrap up, I believe all Christians should manage their money wisely. If they do, by the nature of how money works they will eventually become wealthy. That is to say if you spend less than you make and save money, and do not ever get into debt you will eventually become wealthy. This is not chasing riches, this is not making money the center of your life, this is slowly over time with wisdom and hard work managing the money the Lord has given to you and increasing it, just like the good steward. With this money you can then turn around and sew it into the kingdom, and be a blessing. To have wealth, just to be wealthy is putting your money where God should be is most definitely wrong. To have God at the center of your heart, and have HIs wealth to manage to take care of your family, and to give, is a wonderful thing and something many in the Church today are missing. Too many babies are being tossed out with the bathwater on this one.

Steven I recommend that you watch that video I linked to, it will give you an Idea of what I mean.

Nope it did not.. back to my book. Actually got a few things done, but its not easy to write as it's an instructional book with lots of pictures... LAST.

I am about to go write a book. No not a normal Isaiah, 20 page thesis reply, but an actual book. So all that hard work makes me deserve last!

I'm sorry enoob, I don't understand the question?

In the above statement Our Lord teaches us that within riches lie deceit... then anyone with

riches also has deceit-> for that is with them by fulfillment of God's Word! As seen the man that

came to Him and said:

Mk 10:18-21

18 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

19 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,'

'Do not bear false witness,' 'Do not defraud,' 'Honor your father and your mother.'"

20 And he answered and said to Him, "Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth."

21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way,

sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come,

take up the cross, and follow Me."

NKJV

Here The Lord loved him because the indication is the man was trying to obey Christ Word!

YET the deceitfulness within riches is seen: He had labored and worked and sacrificed to have

them and when offered eternal non-ending wealth for trade of his earthly gain he declined...

That is why the Lord warns us to beware when we think we stand lest we fall... it is why in

humility I prefer to give my gain away so I am not deceived and my heart is upon His Promises

rather than the things of this life! Love, Steven

Steven, my brother, this type of thinking, Is why I started this thread and I disagree with you, from what I have read in the word. Lets start with a list of wealthy Biblical Hero's who were not stumbled by their wealth.

Abraham

Isaac

Jacob

Joseph

Job

David

Joseph of Arimathea, (who paid for Jesus' burial)

And last but not least, the good Samaritan, who while apparently not a real person but an example given by Jesus, is wealthy enough to pay for every need the poor beaten man needed.

As for the rich young ruler, well his wealth was only a part of his issues, and I suggest you read "The Cost of Discipleship" by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who elaborates the story much better than I can. Remember that the wealth owned him, not the other way around.

So yes, riches can be a trap, and we must guard our heart with all diligence as the word says, however riches in and of themselves are not evil or bad.

Now I am going to propose one thing that will perhaps shock. I believe that not enough christians are wealthy The wealthy have power on this earth to cause great good and great evil, so why should christians who, by definition should be Christ like, and good, be poor, or just making it bye while letting evil people have all the resources to do evil?

The trick is to remember this very important thing. We do not own anything. God does. He gives us our life and many good things, and he wants the best for us. If we are responsible, with money that he gives us, he may give us more, But it is money to manage, not to own ourselves, See the example of the parable of the talents in Matthew 25. The servants were given wealth to manage for the Lord, and when they managed well they were given more to manage.

I believe we are servants of the Lord, and I believe that many of us do not manage the little money the Lord has given us to start. When we get better at managing the money we have to start I believe that the Lord will give us more to manage. I personally do hope to be wealthy enough to be able to fund as many missionaries as I can. I would love to be able to hear of a ministry that needs a new building and just be able to pay for the whole thing.

Again the Lord says he is the one who gives us the ability to create wealth but not to forget HIm in the process.

keeping His commandments, His judgments, and His statutes which I command you today, 12 lest—when you have eaten and are full, and have built beautiful houses and dwell in them; 13 and when your herds and your flocks multiply, and your silver and your gold are multiplied, and all that you have is multiplied; 14 when your heart is lifted up, and you forget the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage; 15 who led you through that great and terrible wilderness, in which were fiery serpents and scorpions and thirsty land where there was no water; who brought water for you out of the flinty rock; 16 who fed you in the wilderness with manna, which your fathers did not know, that He might humble you and that He might test you, to do you good in the end— 17 then you say in your heart, ‘My power and the might of my hand have gained me this wealth.’

18 “And you shall remember the Lord your God, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day. 19 Then it shall be, if you by any means forget the Lord your God, and follow other gods, and serve them and worship them, I testify against you this day that you shall surely perish. 20 As the nations which the Lord destroys before you, so you shall perish, because you would not be obedient to the voice of the Lord your God.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPTMA7HIIyk

Instant waterworks for my wife! Who is pregnant by the way, and that does not help!