Inductive

Man, I'm getting older, but I know the sound of a fishing pole being cast when I hear one.

If we're here then I have no doubt we'll stand firm for the Cross and that God will provide for His people.

Aren't we glad we're not going to be here!

You know Toni, you lay out a very clear and clean thought process that justifies your position, and the biggest thing is... it does make sense. As we progress towards the final days (or at this point we could probably say "hours"), we know that knowledge is going to increase, and that those who seek the truth will continue to find it.

I'm going to go back over all of this, perhaps print it out, and review each point. Glancing and reading over these past pages really doesn't do it justice, and a more indepth look is required.

I hope we can continue our discussions, not only on this topic but also on others. Its been not only enjoyable, but I think also profitable.

YBIC,

Chuck

Okay, I think we're in agreement to an extent, so let me ask (for my own clarification), when in the scenario of end time events do you see the war of Ezekiel 38 and 39? I just don't see Islam being that much of an influence in the region, let alone the world, once the war of Ezekiel 38-39 is over. The majority of Muslim around the rest of the world are relatively Sunni and peaceful in their approach to their belief compared to the Shiites of the Middle East.

Chuck

Oh, no, no, no trnfiles, I didn't say that you said there were ties, or anything of the like. I was the one who made the comparison, in saying that during WWII Hitler himself was seen by many as the A/C.

I will say that I disagree with your understanding that the beast of Revelation 13 is a group and not single person. The context of the passage, as well as all surrounding passages that deal with the A/C, the "son of perdition", the "little horn", etc., all point to a single person. To bring and understanding as you have into the prophecy would be taking the entire doctrine of the future A/C out of context with all supporting scriptures throughout the Bible. In doing so, you cannot achieve a correct interpretation. Now if you remain in saying that the Beast, the "son of perdition", the "little horn" may possibly be a Muslim, or is from the region of the Roman Empire, that would be perfectly acceptable within the context of all supporting scriptures.

Do you see my point?

YBIC,

Chuck

Well, just so you know, I'm in agreement with CJ, and it is what I teach in our Precept classes on Daniel. Historically, it matches exactly what has happened in the past. Although I don't disagree that the description you demonstrated can relate to Islam, I can also tell you that it was also the same description used for Hitler during the late 1930's and early 40's when he was believed to be the A/C.

Each generation seeks understanding and is watchful, which were called to do, and we need to continue to do so until the day the Lord comes.

YBIC,

Chuck

The Fourth Beast of Daniel 7 was the Roman Empire. Like I said previously, I don't personally have a problem with the A/C being of Arab decent, since the majority of the region was within the Roman Empire, but I disagree that he will be Muslim, let along the entire empire being Muslim since Ezekiel 38-39 clearly states that these nations will participate with Gog/Magog in the war against Israel and that 5/6th of them will be destroyed, rendering the nations ineffective. From that point there will be the confirming of the covenant with the many (Israel) by the A/C, who will ultimately proclaim himself to be God, something else that the followers of Islam would not accept.

The war of Ezekiel 38-39 (I believe) will occur shortly, but before the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week; that Islam will be rendered ineffective because of it; that the rapture will occur just before or during this war; that, by the description of the events, Russia and the United States will be rendered militarily ineffective, with the US receiving the greater destruction by nuclear attack; all of which paves the way for the son of perdition to come into full reign of the world through the use of deception and economic control. The 10 kings without kingdoms will most likely be economical leaders, or perhaps regional ambassadors, who claim leadership but actually are puppets to the A/C.

Blessings,

YBIC,

Chuck

Daniel 7:23

The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth.

The Nation of Islam.

Which shall be different from all other kingdoms.

Muslims.

And shall devour the whole earth.

Immigration.

Trample it and break it in pieces.

Slowly imposing their religious will on surrounding communities. Working their way into the governments, changing laws and making new ones, until it will eventually be a crime to speak out against them.

Think I'm going to have to stay with the traditional interpretation of Daniel 7.

Exactly glory, and pretty weak for those who have studied the Word for a few years.

In my research, I have come across by accident some very interesting material that further makes the connection of the A/C being of Middle Eastern/arab/islamic origin I thought you would be interested in seeing. Take a look at this.

http://www.universalunity.org/6.html

The Qur'an is the 666 (= islam/beast) scroll about a third down, and you will see this proclamation.

Now that is a different read, albeit a bit confusing the first time through.

Anyone have an Arabic calculator???

Good question Justin.

Todd, I know and work with some Sunni's through the military, and I can tell you that they clearly say that it is a "Shiite myth".

Just going by what the horses say, so to speak.

That's fine, you do not have to agree with me Please note that I am not saying the A/C will be Syrian, but his national origin will likely be any one of these Middle Eastern countries, and that is why Isaiah referred to him as O Assyrian. The old Roman empire was very very vast and included many Middle Eastern countries of today. Many people tend to think that the A/C will come out of the EU/Europe, but forget or are not aware of the fact how many Middle Eastern countries were acutally a part of the old Roman empire and do not make the connection.

I understand, and I respect that. I also don't disagree that he will come from the former Roman Empire, and that could cover a lot of land, including Western Europe, Britian and Ireland for that matter. Going to be some interesting days ahead, that's for sure.

Be blessed, and I enjoyed reading over your blog.

YBIC,

Chuck

Okay, I think that what you have written in interesting, even if I disagree. Its not the first time I've heard that the A/C would be Syrian, but I couldn't remember all the various justification people came up with. Now I remember, and I'll leave you to your discussion.

Lets just spread the Gospel to the ends of the Earth.

I personally enjoy sharing the Gospel Lightheart, but if you're referring to the Gospel going to the ends of the earth, and then the end shall come, that's not the job of the Church, but rather that of an angel (see Revelation 14:6).

YBIC,

Chuck

See my post #25

I did, and its a stretch at best. However, again if that's what you choose to believe, that's fine. Its certainly not a salvation issue, but I would like to read your reference to Josephus that the Romans soldiers under the "prince to come", who was Titus, were primarily Assyrian.

I must have missed that when I read the War of the Jews.

Right back at ya! Nice theory and humanistic hypothesis, but, unlike you, I have been connecting the scriptural dots and believe the scriptures. I suspect most people on prophecy forums such as this will still be waiting for a non-existent pre-tribulation rapture when the covent with many is confirmed, which is in the making right now.

Humanistic hypothesis?

Look, when you pick and choose the verses you want to use to explain something, you have to be like a Thompson Chain Reference and just ensure that you use them all in context. I personally don't have a problem with your believing that the A/C may be Assyrian because Daniel 11 could lean in that direction, moving from the description of Antiocus Epiphanes to the future A/C in verse 36, but like I said, context is key to interpretation, and you are taking out of context (and that is all).

As for the timing of the rapture, if you're not looking for a pre-tribulational rapture, that is fine. I was invited here by a friend who recommended the boards, and its not my intent to try to change your belief in anything. I merely know what God's Word says, and the Word says that He is coming for those looking for Him. I'm being watchful and waiting. You can take another approach and be perfectly content. As important as I believe this future event is in relation to the remainder of the Revelation writings, it is but a thumbtack compared to the life in which you live now, in Christ.

Blessings,

Chuck <--- the guy with the humanistic hypothesis.

from my understanding of the seals.

seal 1. false Christ,

seal 2. great War,

Seal 3 Famine

Seal 4, Death/ sickness, disease

seal 5, martyred remnant

seal 6, earthquakes, natural disasters. I believe the first seal starts with the anti-christ. But this is a very interesting perspective of rev 6.

Definitely interesting Josh, but I'm in agreement with your belief as shown above.

YBIC,

Chuck

On the contrary, the Scriptures indicate the man of sin will be assyrian, and the Scriptures do not teach that there will be a pre-tribulation catching away of the saints. The man of sin is not revealed until mid-week of Daniel's 70th week, as Paul warns and Jesus warns us, or three and one half years into the seventh week, or midway into the tribulation period. Daniel9:27, II Thess 2:3,4, Matt. 24:15.

Well, nowhere in Daniel 9:27, 2 Thess 2, nor in Matt 24 does the Word say that the A/C will be an Assyrian. Actually, for the Body of Christ, who is awake and aware, the revealing of the A/C would be when he confirms the covenant with God's people (Daniel 9:27). Pastors and discussion forums such as this one will be screaming from the roof tops that he has arrived when that event happens.

Isaiah Chapter 10:

O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

Here in Chapter 10, Isaiah is screaming out God's wrath against an indignant people who once turned to him (through Jonah), and now once again have turned their backs on him. It has nothing to do with with the future A/C, but rather the ruin of the nation by Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians.

Of Ezekiel's War, God's prophet writes in Chapter 38:

Son of man, set thy face against God, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Me-shech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

And Say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Me-shech and Tubal;

And I will turn thee back and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords;

PERSIA, (Iran) Ethiopia and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet;

Gomer, and all his bands, the house of To-gar-mah of the north quarters, and all his bands and many people with thee.

Referring to a future war that will practically eliminate the entire fundamental sect (Shiite) of Islam, opening the way for the A/C. Add this event to the Rapture of the Church, and there will be no morality left to stop the A/C from declaring himself as "God", something btw, even the Muslims would not tolerate even from one of their own. You see, although we see Islam as "wrong", they still have a certain sense of morality, and all morality of the day must be moved out of the way so wickedness can prevail in the region (Zech 5).

Iran and Iraq occupy the territory of what was the land of Magog during Ezekiel

I don't think I have ever thought of the a/c as any particular ethnicity or any one single person really, just as an a/c movement of some kind, headed up by a false prophet,but if he, or it, doesn't get a wriggle on, Ill never know, cus I wont be here.

No, I didn't mean "you" eric. I was referring to another thread where someone posted the thought of the A/C being Assyrian. I'm in agreement with you though... I don't think we'll be here, or be here for long after his revealing when the covenant is confirmed!

YBIC,

Chuck

Wath can you find about Iran in the end tme prophecies? Christianity is spreading like wildfire. Most youths are christian. Ca the bible tell us if it will be christian in time before the tribulation?

Persia (Iran) will be aligned with other arab confederates in the Gog/Magog (Ezekiel's War) against Israel as described in Ezekiel Chapter 38 (Persia is mentioned in vs. 3) and 39 and will be destroyed as the God of Israel divinely intervenes for His people, Israel

Is it the islamic army of Iran or the entire nation?

The Bible tells how these arab nations, including Iran will come to attack Israel, with several other hostile arab neighbors surrounding Israel, and aligned with Russia (which could come in the near future) with all of Iran's talk of nuclear weapons and wanting to wipe Israel off the map. Iran will lose, as will all these arab nations mentioned in Exekiel 38, just as they lost in 1948, 1967, 1956, and 1973 wars against Israel; and Israel will gain more of the original land promised to them by God in the Abraham land covenant.

That sort of knocks holes all through some teachings that the A/C will be Islamic, or from an Arab country. Personally, I believe that the war of Ezekiel 38-39 has to happen before Daniel's 70th Week, as well as the Rapture, to give the A/C full reign as his own "god" at the mid-point. Even though Islam is a false belief, it still has some merits towards morality so it has to be removed (one way or another) because I doubt that they would even honor one who would proclaim to be God.

**Just a thought**

Blessings,

Chuck

Todd, a good, brief bit of information you've given, and it is true and accurate regarding the teachings and belief of Islam. The only thing I would add regarding the Mahdi is that it is a Shiite belief and not that of the Sunni. It is also the big reason that the Shiites had such a celebration in Nasaria after our forces cleared out Sadaam's influence in the area after our invasion in 2003. According to Shiite belief, the Mahdi will come from Nasaria, and previous to our invasion, Sadaam (knowing the belief) kept this particular city pretty well locked down.

Blessings,

Chuck