Massorite

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

My current understanding of this scripture is that Jesus was alluding to how the 70 disciples were casting out demons, and hence causing satan to leave quickly, during their travels.

Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

I have wondered though if Jesus was again speaking with more than one meaning in mind.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Rev 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, (8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. (9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Our Lord has a habit of being supremely factual and allegorical and I wonder if this is another time.

You got that right young man. Everything we do at Christmas and Easter comes from pagan worship. Even though we are not pagans we proform pagan ritual in the name of Jesus. How do you think Jesus feels about that? We are instructed in the word of God not to have anything to do with anything that has anything to do with paganism. Which means that decorating trees is a sin no matter what reason we do it for. Attending sun rise services come from worshiping the sun at sun rise and has nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus.

Ezekiel 8:16-17 read verse 18 as well.

And He brought me into the inner court of the Lord’s house, and behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and alter, were about five and twenty men, with their back toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they were worshipping the sun toward the east. Then He said to me,” Have you seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here?

One can only face the east and worship the sun at sun rise.

Jeremiah 10:1-5 Hear the word which trhe Lord speaks to you, O house of Isreal. Thus says the Lord; Do not learn the way of the Gentiles; Do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven, For the Gentiles are dismayed at them. For the customs of the peoples are futile; For one cuts a tree from the forest, The work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They decorate it with silver and gold;They fasten it with nails and hammers so that it will not topple. They are upright, like a palm tree, and they cannot speak; They must be carried, because they connot go by themselves. Do not be afraid of them, for they cannot do evil, nor can they do any good. ---------- Folks are so hard core about celebrating the Holiday that the NIV has changed the word "Axe" to the word "Chisel" but who cuts down a tree with a chisel? Many on this web site have argued against what I teach but scripture is scripture and one can call paganism/ritual any which way they want and it is still paganism/ritual in the eyes of God and according to his word.

Yes there is. It is the bible. So many false doctrinal beliefs abound in the church today that one must be very careful what one reads out side of the word of God. Here are a few examples of false beliefs and trust me when I say that many will shoot me down when I write these. However if it is not written in the bible it is not and it is a false doctrine.

Millions of Christians believe that there will be "Seven Years of Tribulation/Wrath" but one can not find anywhere in the word of God where it says "There will be seven years of tribulation".

The doctrinal belief of "We go to heaven as soon as we die" is also false. Look as hard as you like and you will never see, in scripture, the words "We will go to heaven as soon as we die". To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" when quoted is only half of the verse and when the whole verse is considered it says that we would willing rather be absent from the body. The body goes back to the dust where it came from and the spirit goes back to God where it came from when quoted in an effort to say that we go to heaven as soon as we die and is also a wrong and false interpretation of what that verse says. Proper research will tell you that the word "spirit" in that verse is speaking of the "breath of life" which is that which animates the body and has nothing to do with your soul which will always be yours whether you suffer eternity in hell or in heaven and God will never take back your soul.

The seperation of church and state is also a false doctrinal belief. Scripture tells us and gives us examples that show us God intended for the church and state to be as one and the same and in the end the church and stae will be once again one with Jesus as the head of both the church and the government.

Rapture before the antichrist appears and before the tribulation occures is also a false doctrinal belief. Look in scripture to see for your self if scripture supports that view and you will see that it doesn't. In fact 2 Thessalonians 2:1- 8 tells us that before the "rapture" there will be a great departure from the faith (a great falling away) before the day of Christ comes (verse 3), the man of sin (the antichrist) will be revealed for who he is, who will "sit as God in the temple, showing himself that he is God".

Which in turn leads us to the false doctrinal belief that "all prophecy that was to be fulfilled before the coming of Christ has all been fulfilled and we are now simply waiting on the resurrection" because in 2 Thess 1-8 we are told of the falling away, the appearance of antichrist and if the antichrist is going to sit in the temple of God and show himself as being God there must be a temple for the antichrist to sit in. Which means that we should be looking for a new temple to be built on the temple mount in Jerusalem.

My advice to you is "Get your doctrinal beliefs from the word of God only and not from some other mans opionion or interpretation of the word of God. Let the Holy Spirit of God show what to believe and what his word says."

Mr. Massorite

This Post is nothing more than a personal attack and has nothing to do with the discussion. If you can't particapate in the discussion I suggest you look for some place else to speak your imature insults on someone else who cares about your insults. I never said that I was God but I can say that God/Jesus insulted many of his creation with words. He called certain of his people a brood of vipors, told a woman she was equal to a dog, called his own diciple Satan and so on.

I won't be responding to anymore of this kind of garbage from you in the future.

I have been posting on this board since 2007 in the same way and fashion so no I do not need to tone down my rhetoric. Why Because there is nothing wrong with my rhetoric. Now there have been times in the past when a mod has warned me but that was way back when I was actually insulting people.

What the Bible says about Mr M's attitude:

if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

6

Who, being in very nature

a

God,

did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

7

but made himself nothing,

taking the very nature

b

of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

8

And being found in appearance as a man,

he humbled himself

and became obedient to death—

even death on a cross! Phil.2

A man's pride brings him low, but a man of lowly spirit gains honor. Prov. 29:23

Mr. M...your attitude has

become

the discussion. When I snark at people...and I do sometimes....I never blame Jesus.

I know it's just me either becoming vexed at someone's donkey attitude or my own pride

If it is my pride, then I need to step back and apologize to the person if I have been rude or, if it is the person who has

the donkey attitude... stubborn, unwilling to learn, braying like a fool and ready to kick out for no reason other than it is

a donkey, then I either report it to the mods or try to be gentle in my response because animals respond best to kindness

Donkeys generally start braying when you don't agree with their opinions that they believe are scripture. Sometimes, they

just don't understand...other times, well, other times they want to make scripture fit what they already believe so that they

will not have to have the discomfort of modifying their life.

I will leave it to you to decide which flaw you are exhibiting as it certainly is not the nature of Christ.

I think you owe everyone here an apology and I'm not a mod, but that is what I think.

I don't think that I will be giving an apology just because I take the bible literally and don't have a problem with telling others when they are preaching scripture badly.

However you are correct and that was a word of wisdom, My attitude has become the discussion so it is time for me to leave. I know that I am combative and believe it or not it is my God job to be so.

I am sure you disagree but Jesus doesn't.

Mr. Massorite

This Post is nothing more than a personal attack and has nothing to do with the discussion. If you can't particapate in the discussion I suggest you look for some place else to speak your imature insults on someone else who cares about your insults. I never said that I was God but I can say that God/Jesus insulted many of his creation with words. He called certain of his people a brood of vipors, told a woman she was equal to a dog, called his own diciple Satan and so on.

I won't be responding to anymore of this kind of garbage from you in the future.

I have been posting on this board since 2007 in the same way and fashion so no I do not need to tone down my rhetoric. Why Because there is nothing wrong with my rhetoric. Now there have been times in the past when a mod has warned me but that was way back when I was actually insulting people.

What the Bible says about Mr M's attitude:

if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

6

Who, being in very nature

a

God,

did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

7

but made himself nothing,

taking the very nature

b

of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

8

And being found in appearance as a man,

he humbled himself

and became obedient to death—

even death on a cross! Phil.2

A man's pride brings him low, but a man of lowly spirit gains honor. Prov. 29:23

Mr. M...your attitude has

become

the discussion. When I snark at people...and I do sometimes....I never blame Jesus.

I know it's just me either becoming vexed at someone's donkey attitude or my own pride

If it is my pride, then I need to step back and apologize to the person if I have been rude or, if it is the person who has

the donkey attitude... stubborn, unwilling to learn, braying like a fool and ready to kick out for no reason other than it is

a donkey, then I either report it to the mods or try to be gentle in my response because animals respond best to kindness

Donkeys generally start braying when you don't agree with their opinions that they believe are scripture. Sometimes, they

just don't understand...other times, well, other times they want to make scripture fit what they already believe so that they

will not have to have the discomfort of modifying their life.

I will leave it to you to decide which flaw you are exhibiting as it certainly is not the nature of Christ.

I think you owe everyone here an apology and I'm not a mod, but that is what I think.

There was no insult intended but I did speak my mind and I truly believe that I am 100% right.

I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with the way you're going about it.

It seems that people like you miss so much when you make it so complicated to understand scripture and I have also found that people like you never learn how to do anything different.

As you don't even know me...that is quite presumptuous on your part. The only thing that you seem to be saying is that anyone who does not agree with you is some sort of idiot. I am well versed in the school of thought that says Melchizedek was an appearance of Christ in the OT...I have spoken with theologians who believe it...and have enjoyed discussing it with them...because they have been able to intelligently articulate and present their side without the overflow of self righteousness and vitriol that you have spewed in this thread.

1. In EXODUS 33:22 God did appear to Moses as God but God did not allow Moses to see his face. God allowed Moses to see his backside. Which means that if we are made in the image of God then God has a butt like we do.

An interesting interpretation of scripture...Hmmmm

I do not give the "Rabbinical form of argument" any power because they are not always accurate. On this subject and according to you they say that Melchizedek was a typology of Jesus and indeed the bible is full of typology. however there no scriptural proof that Melchizedek as human and infact scripture tells us that Mechizedek will live for ever which means that his body is not corrupted and not limited by death as humans are. However if you stick to what the Rabbi's say then Melchizedek was human and therefore would have to die because Why? Because it is given to every human/man to die once. Isn't that what the word of God says? Hebrew 9:27. So where is the record of the death of Melchizedek?

Another reason I give no power to any Rabbinical argument is because for the most part they have the worng mind set. Is this a Rabbi who belives in Jesus or not. I can't reseach this Rabbi because you don't tell us who the source of these statments are. So quoting Ribbinical aurguments without telling us who the Rabbi was is useless. It gives us nothing.

I can only surmise that you are completely ignorant of what a form of rabbinical argument is. It is a STYLE of presentation common in Jewish theological writings...that's all...a style of writing. Period.

It uses a qal va-chomer, or a fortiori argument utilizing comparison, contrast, typology, and scripture to define and present a point. In the case of Hebrews, the superiority of Christ over all things because he is messiah.

If you're going to blow a gasket...at least know what you are blowing it over.

]"I believe that Vs 3 which says: without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually Merely refers to the fact that there is no genealogy recorded, and as there is no record of his death...he remains a priest...once again a typology."

Not only that but this so called argument minipulates the verse. It comes up with a lame argument about the Geneology and says nothing about the fact that the same verse say that Melchizedec had no beginning of days and no end of life. So where are the Ribbiniacl arguments for these statments. Only a self blinded Rabbi would not see that if Melchizedek had no beginning of days that there would not be a Father or a Mother recorded in the first place and where does that put you when you are falling in right behind him. It is Garantied that this Rabbi does not believe in Jesus and therefore has the wrong frame of mind when creating arguement.

Funny thing, that...the writer of Hebrews was obviously a Christian...establishing the superiority and primacy of Christ, so stating: It is Garantied that this Rabbi does not believe in Jesus and therefore has the wrong frame of mind when creating arguement. has got to rate among the most absurd statements ever made.

You wrote "I have found the Bible to be its own best commentary, serving to enlighten rather than obscure." Well good then I would suggest that you do just that instead of quoting Rabbinical Arguements that are missleading.

You wrote "None (WORSHIP) of this is seen with Melchizedek. No worship, no revelation as God, nothing. WRONG AGAIN, Giving a tenth of our first fruits is worshipping God and we are instructed by God to do so as a form of worship. The scriptures are too many to quote.

In every case...bar none...when a Theophany occurs in the OT, whether by dream, vision, or physical appearance...God is revealed to the person He is visiting; or the person He is visiting recognizes and confesses He is God. Hagar who said You are the God who sees, Moses to whom God said: I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham and Issac, and Jacob, Joshua when the man said: Take the shoes off your feet, for where you stand is holy.

Please point out for me...chapter and verse please, where Melchizidek either declares himself to be God, or where Abraham addresses him as "LORD", or where Abraham is told to take the shoes of his feet...point that out to me and I will change my position in a heartbeat.

You might also want to pick up a history book or two...because in those days it was common practice to give tribute to a friendly king when you passed through his country...so Abraham giving a portion to Melchizedek is nothing out of the ordinary, and does not mean that he was worshipping him. And I would also point out that the LEVITICAL LAW OF THE TITHE WAS NOT EVEN ESTABLISHED!

So you probably ought to heed your own admonition and do some more study yourself instead of telling everyone else how they ought to see things.

According to Hebrew 7:3 Melchizedek is still a priest and is continually a priest. Which means that his order is still alive and has never been changed or replaced by the order of the Levi priesthood. Melchizedek is still just what the bible says he is. The Priest of God Most High. Genesis 14:18. And who is the Priest of the Most High God and sits at the right Hand of God? Jesus

The resurrected Jesus was made a priest after the order of Melchizedek, Hebrews doesn't say Christ is Melchizedek. I won't be as dogmatic as you to say that he isn't Mel in the OT, that Hebrews doesn't imply that he is.

I need to tone down my rhetoric on this board, what about you.

I have been posting on this board since 2007 in the same way and fashion so no I do not need to tone down my rhetoric. Why Because there is nothing wrong with my rhetoric. Now there have been times in the past when a mod has warned me but that was way back when I was actually insulting people. There is a great difference between making personal insults and negitive statments of fact. I haven't called anybody names, I haven't used any bad language and I haven't compared anybody to anybody or anything else of a lower nature than we are so what is the problem? If you make statements that are not according to scripture I will tell you so and I will not give you a break. Why? Because what you say on this site can lead a new Christian astray and it is also what you would teach and if what you teach is wrong it is false teaching.

I haven't made any assumptions here and I haven't quoted any scripture wrong iether and in all of my replies I have done nothing but throw out scripture and I have never given my opinion based on my opinion alone. It has always been base on scripture.

So now lets get back to the subject at hand.

You said "he resurrected Jesus was made a priest after the order of Melchizedek, Hebrews doesn't say Christ is Melchizedek. I won't be as dogmatic as you to say that he isn't Mel in the OT, that Hebrews doesn't imply that he is." I agree that Hebrews doesn't imply that Jesus is Melchizedek but here is a question for you to explain to me.

If Melchizedek is a priest to God and His priesthood is to last forever and Jesus is also a priest to God and His priesthood is to last forever then way are there two of them?

Heb 7:17

For He testifies: "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." nkjv

Heb 7:17

For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. kjv

As you can see there are some differences in translations. The word "according" verses the word "After". The "after" in the KJV is speaking of "one after another" in the Thayer's. However the word "according" is not explained or associated with Hebrews 7:17

Now according Mosaic law, no one could aspire to the high priesthood unless he were of the tribe of Aaron and decended from the high priestly family; and he whom the office was conffered held it until death

So Mosaic law does not apply here for Jesus or Melchizedek because Mosaic law was made for humans and Melchizedec has never died and Jesus did not become a priest until after his death. So do we have two priest to God or one?

We do no that the definition of the word "according in the websters is "in harmony with or in agreement with"

When it comes to scripture I never deal with the realm of imply or seems to lead us to believe or could mean or anything that has associated with being vague. It is either clearly spoken or I do not intertain it. I am not afraid to admit that I am wrong but I need scriptural proof.

But, can he, Melchizedek, be human and Christ who is God be after the order of Melchizedek a human? Why not the Levitical order if human? A known unknown if there ever was one!!

Yep...a lot of questions, for sure!

In all of scripture though, Melchizedek is the only person who was both a priest and a king...everyone else was one or the other, but not both. So...as I read it...Melchizedek's order would be a royal priesthood....unique and distinct in the OT.

As far as the Levitical order...this event took place way before the Levitical priesthood was established.

Bad Advice. According to Hebrew 7:3 Melchizedek is still a priest and is contiually a priest. Which means that his order is still alive and has never been changed or replaced by the order of the Levi priesthood. Melchizedek is still just what the bible says he is. The Priest of God Most High. Genesis 14:18. And who is the Priest of the Most High God and sits at the rihght Hand of God? Jesus

Yes! I am getting as personnal with my maker as His word allows. Alot of people think I am nuts when I say what I say but it comes straight from the mouth of God.

You have proved by your words that it is you speaking, and not God. I cannot see God being sarcastic and making personal attacks.

Such as..

Ohhh please give me a break. Did God come down and have sex with Mary?

Hardly straight from the mouth of God?

Yes! I am getting as personnal with my maker as His word allows. Alot of people think I am nuts when I say what I say but it comes straight from the mouth of God.

You have proved by your words that it is you speaking, and not God. I cannot see God being sarcastic and making personal attacks.

Such as..

Ohhh please give me a break. Did God come down and have sex with Mary?

Hardly straight from the mouth of God?

This Post is nothing more than a personal attack and has nothing to do with the discussion. If you can't particapate in the discussion I suggest you look for some place else to speak your imature insults on someone else who cares about your insults. I never said that I was God but I can say that God/Jesus insulted many of his creation with words. He called certain of his people a brood of vipors, told a woman she was equal to a dog, called his own diciple Satan and so on.

I won't be responding to anymore of this kind of garbage from you in the future.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only

begotten

of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only

begotten

Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only

begotten

Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because

he hath not believed in the name of the only

begotten

Son of God.

1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only

begotten

Son into the world, that we might live through him.

The Bible reveals God has other sons. For example, believers in Jesus are called the sons of God but through adoption. Adam was called the son of God. God gave the angels the title of the sons of God. Israelbecame God’s son, and Solomon sat on the throne of Israel as the son of God. However, the Lord Jesus remains distinguished from all these sons of God. He is singular and unique as the only begotten Son of God with the Father from eternity. He has a different relationship with the Father. Any tampering with the Lord as the only begotten Son of God would just make Him one of many sons of God in the Bible. A verse to show this follows:

Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. (6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

BEGOTTEN NOT CREATED. Begotten means to father

Ohhh please give me a break. Did God come down and have sex with Mary?

You certainly do have a way with words. I don't issue breaks; I imagine you are offered them quite regularly considering your

gentle and helpful posting style.

Interesting disregard for scripture you appear to have....I didn't make up that word. One wonders how you might actually

address God.

I agree about the other sons of God both created and born of a woman, but we are not talking about them are we. We are talking about Melchizedek and we are not talking about wether or not he was a son. We are talking about wether or not he was human or not. Wether he was Jesus or not. The other sons of God are a side issue and have nothing to do with what we are talking about here.

So you have chosen not to answer my question? Is that it? Or is it because you don't have an answer because the word "begotten" in verses talking about Jesus do not speak of a "human" geneology?

Ok lets try again. According to the Strongs # 3439 the word "begotten" when ever the bible is taking about the only begotten Son of God simply means "only born" and has nothing to do with geneology.

However the Strong's numbers for all other uses of the word "begotten" are # 3205, #4138, #3318 in the Hebrew and the # 3205 has many meanings which can be pointed at anything including "only Son"

The Strongs numbers for "begotten" in the Greek are # 1080, #318, #446 and the #3439 which means "Only born". All of the other uses of the word "Begotten" are speaking of Geneology with a father and a mother who came together and the mother concieved of a child, and since the Father was God there is no geneology past God himself. So it looks like to me that you have interpreted the word "begotten" with regards to the statment of God "My only Begotten Son" wrongly

If you think I have disregaded scripture please don't be afraid to tell me what scripture you are talking about. Go ahead I can take it.

Thank you for your compliments. I am tough on those make claims without knowledge and I do tell it like I see it. No insults intended.

Greetings,

When the New City Jerusalem comes down out of Space and lands over where Jerusalem is now, what do you think the inhabitants of the Earth will call this Massive City that comes out of Space and lands over Jerusalem? A UFO maybe?

^i^

Yeeeees my point exactly. Until the word became flesh, Jesus walked this earth in what ever kind of body God gave him to walk on this earth with. There is no scriptural proof that Melchizedek was human at all so to assume that he was human is to assume that which is not written in the bible and there for wrong. Did you know that God has a butt? Just like we do?

[i'm just kidding]Where do you get this stuff, a comic book?[i'm just kidding?] But serious, Christ walked the earth in multiple forms? God has a buttock? Getting real personal with your Maker, aren't you.

Exodus 33:22 &23 So it shall be , while My glory passes by that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. Then I will take away My hand and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.

So if God has a hand and we and God have the same image wouldn,t God have a butt also? LOL

Gen 18:1-3 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.

So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw

them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,

and said, "My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.

"The the Lord appeared to him"- Singular

"and behold, three men were standing by him"- Plural

"My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight" - Singular

The three men are the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. Read all of chapter 18 and you will find that even though there were three men the only one who spoke was God. Can you imagine all three men speaking all at the same time?

Yes! I am getting as personnal with my maker as His word allows. Alot of people think I am nuts when I say what I say but it comes straight from the mouth of God.

The name "Melchizedek, means "The Prince/King of Righteousness or The Prince/King of Peace/Salem. In the book of Hebrews chapter 7 in verse 1 it says the Melchizedek, is the priest of the Most High God, In verse 3 it says that Melchizedek is without Father or Mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of days of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

So what can we groom from all of this information?

#1. First of all there is only one King of Righteous and his name is Jesus Christ.

#2. We know from the word of God that Melchizedek did not have a Father or a Mother or any relatives, Which means that He was not concieved like you and I were, He was created by God without using a humasn to do it.

#3. He has no beginning of days and no ending of life, which means that He has always been and will live forever, is still alive even from the days of Abraham and will never die. And to this very day still remains the Priest to the Most High God.

And lastly, when we give our money up on Sunday or any other day, who are we giving it to? Non other than the Most High God. The word of God says that "if you have seen me you have seen the Father. (Words of Jesus Christ) So who was it that Abraham gave a tenth of all he took from the kings who took his brother.

The Conclusion?

Melchizedek was Jesus Christ who was created by God, who has alway been and always will be, who is God incarnate as we know him, who is and always has been the one and only King of Righteousness, who is and always will be the King of the city of Jerusalem which is the city of Peace, who is and always will be the Priest to the Most High God.

A lot of people have trouble with this bit of truth but what the hay. I am not the paper boy, all I did was research the scriptures given to all us about Melchizedek and the bible says what it says. Who am I to argue with what the word of God says?

I must respectfully disagree with the conclusion...

A passing familiarity with what is know as the "Rabbinical form of argument" (for this book is written to the Hebrews by one who is obviously a trained rabbinical scholar) **I think** will show that the author is presenting Melchizedek in the manner of a "typology" in presenting Jesus as King and High Priest.

In all of scripture for example, aside from Jesus there is only one figure who is both a king and a priest...and that is Melchizedek. Vs 17 serves to show that Jesus is both Priest and King after the order of Melchizedek.

I believe that Vs 3 which says: without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

Merely refers to the fact that there is no genealogy recorded, and as there is no record of his death...he remains a priest...once again a typology.

I'd point out that Jesus has a genealogy, and this genealogy is extremely important within a Jewish context in showing that Jesus is Messiah...His genealogy is recorded in all the synoptic gospels. Perhaps this is the reason that the genealogy of Melchizedek is omitted, but that's just a guess...

So...I don't think that this was an example of a Theophany (or Christophany as it is known today), but rather an example of a man who was used as a type, or foreshadowing of the role of Messiah.

JMO

You should be arguing with God and not me, because I didn't write what the word of God says about Melchizedek. God did, however if you can prove me wrong by using scripture alone then I would gladly reconsider my conclusions

You based your conclusions on this - Theophany (or Christophany as it is known today) and Jewish context which do more to confuse those who are uneducated in context and Christophany, which are some 99% of the people who read the word of God. Any body who has at the least a rudimentry education can read and understand the bible because that is how simple God has made it to read. But folks like you add confusion to that which God has made simple and you know who the author of confusion is right? Satan is the author of confusion.

As for your assertion that Jesus had some geneology, we should remember the the word of God says that God simply spoke and the word became flesh. It had nothing to do with the sperm and the egg binding together like when we were concieved, and the blood line of Jesse was only extended to Mary and not Joseph. Even Jesus himself said "I have no family" when the people around him thaqt his family was looking for him and he didn't go to them, did he?

Setting aside for a moment the accusation that you have made that I add confusion and the inference that somehow I am in league with Satan, let me clarify how I arrive at my conclusions.

In any issue, in any theological point, in any question: I attempt to study diligently and "rightly divide" the word of truth. In this approach, I always endeavor to use the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD, from Genesis through Revelation. The reason is obvious: Anyone can take scripture out of context...a passage here and a passage there...and weave any theology that they wish and any doctrine that pleases them. Now admittedly I am not always as successful as I would like, but I would never accuse someone else of sowing confusion simply because they have a different answer than I.

I have found the Bible to be its own best commentary, serving to enlighten rather than obscure.

So then, shall we take a look at theophanies in the OT and compare them against Melchizedek? Why not...

In the OT God appears in visions (Gen 15:1-21, Isaiah 6 et.al.), in dreams (Gen 20:3-7 et.al) and physically as: THE Angel of the Lord (Ex 3:2-6), The Lord (Gen 18), Commander of the Lord's Army (Josh 5:14-15), etc.

In every instance, bar none...God reveals Himself as God without question...the people to whom He appeared knew and confessed He was the Lord. Worship was given and received.

None of this is seen with Melchizedek. No worship, no revelation as God, nothing.

Item 2: Nowhere does God appear either as the king of a city, or a priest of...well...God. The role of a priest is to stand between man and God and offer petitions etc. on one's behalf. God in appearing to an individual has no need for a priest, because that individual is in the very presence of God.

God appearing as a priest to Himself? Not in the OT scriptures.

It is also not in the scriptures that God spoke Jesus into the flesh...that is waaayyy off in left field. What is written is John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

And again: But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law Gal:4-4

There was no insult intended but I did speak my mind and I truly believe that I am 100% right.

It seems that people like you miss so much when you make it so complicated to understand scripture and I have also found that people like you never learn how to do anything different.

1. In EXODUS 33:22 God did appear to Moses as God but God did not allow Moses to see his face. God allowed Moses to see his backside. Which means that if we are made in the image of God then God has a butt like we do.

I do not give the "Rabbinical form of argument" any power because they are not always accurate. On this subject and according to you they say that Melchizedek was a typology of Jesus and indeed the bible is full of typology. however there no scriptural proof that Melchizedek as human and infact scripture tells us that Mechizedek will live for ever which means that his body is not corrupted and not limited by death as humans are. However if you stick to what the Rabbi's say then Melchizedek was human and therefore would have to die because Why? Because it is given to every human/man to die once. Isn't that what the word of God says? Hebrew 9:27. So where is the record of the death of Melchizedek?

Another reason I give no power to any Rabbinical argument is because for the most part they have the worng mind set. Is this a Rabbi who belives in Jesus or not. I can't reseach this Rabbi because you don't tell us who the source of these statments are. So quoting Ribbinical aurguments without telling us who the Rabbi was is useless. It gives us nothing.

"I believe that Vs 3 which says: without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually Merely refers to the fact that there is no genealogy recorded, and as there is no record of his death...he remains a priest...once again a typology."

Not only that but this so called argument minipulates the verse. It comes up with a lame argument about the Geneology and says nothing about the fact that the same verse say that Melchizedec had no beginning of days and no end of life. So where are the Ribbiniacl arguments for these statments. Only a self blinded Rabbi would not see that if Melchizedek had no beginning of days that there would not be a Father or a Mother recorded in the first place and where does that put you when you are falling in right behind him. It is Garantied that this Rabbi does not believe in Jesus and therefore has the wrong frame of mind when creating arguement.

You wrote "I have found the Bible to be its own best commentary, serving to enlighten rather than obscure." Well good then I would suggest that you do just that instead of quoting Rabbinical Arguements that are missleading.

You wrote "None (WORSHIP) of this is seen with Melchizedek. No worship, no revelation as God, nothing. WRONG AGAIN, Giving a tenth of our first fruits is worshipping God and we are instructed by God to do so as a form of worship. The scriptures are too many to quote.

You wrote "It is also not in the scriptures that God spoke Jesus into the flesh...that is waaayyy off in left field. What is written is John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory,the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Ok you got me there. Guess I got a bit over zealous.

"Truly, ou ha

Massorite, think about this a bit, ok?

Was Jesus born twice? Or did He go back in time? Or did He incarnate Himself without a birth?

Did He live forever? Or did He die? How did He become king of a city then cease to be king? Why did He only rule a city?

Seriously, to make the claim you are making, you have to factor in what was going on...how He came, why He came, where did He go?

Or you consider what Mcgyver said: "A passing familiarity with what is know as the "Rabbinical form of argument" (for this book is written to the Hebrews by one who is obviously a trained rabbinical scholar) **I think** will show that the author is presenting Melchizedek in the manner of a "typology" in presenting Jesus as King and High Priest."

This fits a whole lot better with the rest of Scripture. The interpretation you gave creates a whole lot of puzzles and confusion.

Ok these are good questions and I always abide by what scripture says and the scriptures say that God is the Father, The Son , and the Holy Spirit and all three are one but seperate at the same time.

Now if Jesus is the Word of God and we know from scripture that the Word is God, then Jesus has lived since before the foundations of the world, which is also what scripture says. Which mean that Jesus was alive and kicking long before Abraham was born and the bible says that both Jesus and Mel have no beginning of days and that they also will live for ever, and that both of them are discribed in the word of God as being the Prince of Righteousness. Then we are talking about a malfunction in the word of God because they both can't be the same Prince of Righteousness who has always been and who will live forever. Right? Because that would mean that we would have two Princes of Righteousness who will both live forever. Unless of course they are one and the same being, and we all know that in the end Jesus will be the King of Jerusalem (just like the word of God says that Melchizedek was the King of Jerusalem) and we all know there can be only one King of Jerusalem. Right?

Now while it is true that Jesus/the word became flesh and then died on the cross to pay for all of our sins, it doesn't change that fact that Jesus was God in the Flesh. What was it that Jesus said to Peter after Peter cut off the servents ear "Do you not think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more then twelve legions of angels?"

So with that in mind I ask you. What human can call angels down from heaven to fight for them?

The fact that God/Jesus became flesh was his choice. He didn't have to do it and becoming flesh for us because He loves us doesn't or didn't change the fact that He was the All Mighty, All powerful, One and only Living God who Loves us so much that He became flesh and died as an example for us to follow after and to wash our sins away and guess what? He was still God while He was suffering on the Cross.

And now He sits at the throne at the right hand of God and that is where He went.

So is that enough factoring in for you? Because unless some one can show scripture that says the opposite of what I know scripture has already shown me, I will stand by what I have read in the word of God.

Why is it that it is so simple and believable to me and so hard for others to grasp? God is God and He can do what ever He wants to. He can appear to Abraham as Melchizedek and He can appear to Abraham as three men up on a hill, He can appear as Jesus in the flesh and He can appear as Jesus on the cross and He can appear as Jesus in His glorified body after His Death in the flesh. But actually He never died did He? Because God can't die, He lives for ever and ever. Right? Only the flesh died on the cross.

"Truly you have a dizzying intellect."

No, if Jesus has always been walking the earth as a man, then the his birth (rebirth?) through Mary is . . . pointless.

Yeeeees my point exactly. Until the word became flesh, Jesus walked this earth in what ever kind of body God gave him to walk on this earth with. There is no scriptural proof that Melchizedek was human at all so to assume that he was human is to assume that which is not written in the bible and there for wrong. Did you know that God has a butt? Just like we do?

But, can he, Melchizedek, be human and Christ who is God be after the order of Melchizedek a human? Why not the Levitical order if human? A known unknown if there ever was one!!

There is nothing in scripture that says that Melchizedek was human and that is where I think a lot of folks make a mistake. They assume without scriptural proof that Melchizedek was human.

Massorite, think about this a bit, ok?

Was Jesus born twice? Or did He go back in time? Or did He incarnate Himself without a birth?

Did He live forever? Or did He die? How did He become king of a city then cease to be king? Why did He only rule a city?

Seriously, to make the claim you are making, you have to factor in what was going on...how He came, why He came, where did He go?

Or you consider what Mcgyver said: "A passing familiarity with what is know as the "Rabbinical form of argument" (for this book is written to the Hebrews by one who is obviously a trained rabbinical scholar) **I think** will show that the author is presenting Melchizedek in the manner of a "typology" in presenting Jesus as King and High Priest."

This fits a whole lot better with the rest of Scripture. The interpretation you gave creates a whole lot of puzzles and confusion.

Ok these are good questions and I always abide by what scripture says and the scriptures say that God is the Father, The Son , and the Holy Spirit and all three are one but seperate at the same time.

Now if Jesus is the Word of God and we know from scripture that the Word is God, then Jesus has lived since before the foundations of the world, which is also what scripture says. Which mean that Jesus was alive and kicking long before Abraham was born and the bible says that both Jesus and Mel have no beginning of days and that they also will live for ever, and that both of them are discribed in the word of God as being the Prince of Righteousness. Then we are talking about a malfunction in the word of God because they both can't be the same Prince of Righteousness who has always been and who will live forever. Right? Because that would mean that we would have two Princes of Righteousness who will both live forever. Unless of course they are one and the same being, and we all know that in the end Jesus will be the King of Jerusalem (just like the word of God says that Melchizedek was the King of Jerusalem) and we all know there can be only one King of Jerusalem. Right?

Now while it is true that Jesus/the word became flesh and then died on the cross to pay for all of our sins, it doesn't change that fact that Jesus was God in the Flesh. What was it that Jesus said to Peter after Peter cut off the servents ear "Do you not think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more then twelve legions of angels?"

So with that in mind I ask you. What human can call angels down from heaven to fight for them?

The fact that God/Jesus became flesh was his choice. He didn't have to do it and becoming flesh for us because He loves us doesn't or didn't change the fact that He was the All Mighty, All powerful, One and only Living God who Loves us so much that He became flesh and died as an example for us to follow after and to wash our sins away and guess what? He was still God while He was suffering on the Cross.

And now He sits at the throne at the right hand of God and that is where He went.

So is that enough factoring in for you? Because unless some one can show scripture that says the opposite of what I know scripture has already shown me, I will stand by what I have read in the word of God.

Why is it that it is so simple and believable to me and so hard for others to grasp? God is God and He can do what ever He wants to. He can appear to Abraham as Melchizedek and He can appear to Abraham as three men up on a hill, He can appear as Jesus in the flesh and He can appear as Jesus on the cross and He can appear as Jesus in His glorified body after His Death in the flesh. But actually He never died did He? Because God can't die, He lives for ever and ever. Right? Only the flesh died on the cross.

Onelight:

These two verses do not show where anything changed. They are inclusive. John was not taken to another place, nor does it say something like "Then I was shown" or any other similar phrase.

Thank you Onelight.. I like those two graphics, they are very simple and easy to understand. I also am thankful that on this one little thing, there is so much to be discussed. It just shows that the Word of God is the most interesting thing, and very deep. One scripture you have read over and over, the Holy Spirit can still give you life changing revelation from it.

I have noted your understanding of the word "AND" John stating "He Saw" the Greek literally means new understanding or revelation. This does not mean the visions can't be in order though as events unfold, but it could be also understood that the visions are just given, and not in the order of events.

Still, I suppose one could not ignore the seamless flow of Rev 8, from the seals to the trumpets.

My issue though is still with the verses I have given several of............ What to do with those? If your 2nd picture of events is the correct one? That is where I take God's instruction of Here a little, and there a little... compare like things with like things.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Jesus said the stars fall from heaven, rolled up, gone............ AFTER THE TRIBULATION... the sun and moon go dark... AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

The Heavens Shaken, every mountain moved from it's place. (Massive Earthquake)

After the tribulation........................

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

See OneLight...... while you focus just on the Order of what John saw and gave. Jesus said that he comes right after the release of the sixth seal. The events of the sixth Seal are Perfectly matched to what every other scripture about it say. Perfectly matched, and several scriptures.

I have to take (Picture 1) when told to compare spiritual with spiritual, like things with like things, and not be real concerned with the Order of things John was given. Unless the whole book of Revelation was given in perfect order on the same time line. Then it would be wise to follow the Order. However, Revelations was not given to John that way.

If I don't take Picture 1, then I don't know where to place several scriptures. because Immediately After is a stronger witness than just assuming John was given everything in perfect order, when much of what was Given John skipped around time lines is several chapters.

Jesus Is Lord.

I disagree with you both. I tried long and hard to line things up in the book of Revelation and I have come to the conclusion that God jumbled it all up so we couldn't line it up. However what we do have are certain scriptural declarations that we can hang onto. Like the scripture that says that we will be raised from the grave or changed when the last trumpet is blown.

You really need to study what the trumprets are for , when they are used and why ,,again this is just a misunderstanding on your part , here is a deeper longer explantion of the trump

http://voe.mdsone.com/dv/2242576

there is even more info

but you seem intent on attacking things you have not a deep understanding of ,,,simply if you choose not to believe ,,be happy with what you believe ,,, this topic has been covered so many many times ,,

No WallingWall did not misunderstand scripture. You did. The bible is very clear in that we will be here on earth until the last/7th trumpet is sounded. Which also means that we will be here on earth for all of the 6 other trumpets that are blown. Now you can argue about that but you would be arguing with the word of God so look up when you do your arguing.

As far as other biblical/end times scholars that are well known, I don't know that my book has reached any of them yet. My editor says it's usually a very slow process, and even more so when you are unknown. With so many thousands of books that are being published every year, it's hard to get book stores to carry your book until there starts to be a demand for it. There are people that are excited about my book, but probably no one that you would know. I'd guess that there's only about 200 copies in circulation so far, and probably about 90% of those were bought locally, in my neck of the woods.

I have been thinking of sending a copy to some other end times scholars, because so far, I've noticed the ones that do get excited about it are the ones who have some knowledge about the end times. The book is very challenging and thought provoking, no matter what rapture theory you happen to believe in. It will make you want to question why you believe what you believe. Do you have any suggestions of which scholars I should send a copy to?

Sending a book to other end time theologists is one way of getting an idea, yet I have not even thought about this at all, so I can not offer any names. I was just wondering if you knew of any end time teachers who have the same theories you have, or close to it. It almost sounds like you have something completely new.

Pat Robertson on the 700 club does.

You know that in science, when a scientist makes an assumption that goes against the "flow" of knowledge on a subject, they have other scientest who agree and have independently reached the same conclusions that point to the "error" of prior conclusions? I know you posted this on another forum and referenced your book, but where are the other biblical/end times scholars who agree with you in your "teaching?"

I agree with you Parker a on assuming. To put it simply. One can look through and research the bible for a million years and they will never find where the word of God says "There will be seven years of tribulation". Why? Because those word are not written anywhere in the bible. The whole idea of a seven year tribulation is nothing more then the assumptions of men. One doesn't need other endtime scholars to agree that an assertion is true, one only needs the word of God.

If it is not written in the word of God then it is not.

Yup, Melchizedek was merely a human being who was a priest of the most high God during the time he lived upon earth.

You got that wrong! there is not one single place in scripture that says the Mel. was human but there is scripture that says that he has no beginning and no ending of days and humans do not live for ever.

The name "Melchizedek, means "The Prince/King of Righteousness or The Prince/King of Peace/Salem. In the book of Hebrews chapter 7 in verse 1 it says the Melchizedek, is the priest of the Most High God, In verse 3 it says that Melchizedek is without Father or Mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of days of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

So what can we groom from all of this information?

#1. First of all there is only one King of Righteous and his name is Jesus Christ.

#2. We know from the word of God that Melchizedek did not have a Father or a Mother or any relatives, Which means that He was not concieved like you and I were, He was created by God without using a humasn to do it.

#3. He has no beginning of days and no ending of life, which means that He has always been and will live forever, is still alive even from the days of Abraham and will never die. And to this very day still remains the Priest to the Most High God.

And lastly, when we give our money up on Sunday or any other day, who are we giving it to? Non other than the Most High God. The word of God says that "if you have seen me you have seen the Father. (Words of Jesus Christ) So who was it that Abraham gave a tenth of all he took from the kings who took his brother.

The Conclusion?

Melchizedek was Jesus Christ who was created by God, who has alway been and always will be, who is God incarnate as we know him, who is and always has been the one and only King of Righteousness, who is and always will be the King of the city of Jerusalem which is the city of Peace, who is and always will be the Priest to the Most High God.

A lot of people have trouble with this bit of truth but what the hay. I am not the paper boy, all I did was research the scriptures given to all us about Melchizedek and the bible says what it says. Who am I to argue with what the word of God says?

I must respectfully disagree with the conclusion...

A passing familiarity with what is know as the "Rabbinical form of argument" (for this book is written to the Hebrews by one who is obviously a trained rabbinical scholar) **I think** will show that the author is presenting Melchizedek in the manner of a "typology" in presenting Jesus as King and High Priest.

In all of scripture for example, aside from Jesus there is only one figure who is both a king and a priest...and that is Melchizedek. Vs 17 serves to show that Jesus is both Priest and King after the order of Melchizedek.

I believe that Vs 3 which says: without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

Merely refers to the fact that there is no genealogy recorded, and as there is no record of his death...he remains a priest...once again a typology.

I'd point out that Jesus has a genealogy, and this genealogy is extremely important within a Jewish context in showing that Jesus is Messiah...His genealogy is recorded in all the synoptic gospels. Perhaps this is the reason that the genealogy of Melchizedek is omitted, but that's just a guess...

So...I don't think that this was an example of a Theophany (or Christophany as it is known today), but rather an example of a man who was used as a type, or foreshadowing of the role of Messiah.

JMO

You should be arguing with God and not me, because I didn't write what the word of God says about Melchizedek. God did, however if you can prove me wrong by using scripture alone then I would gladly reconsider my conclusions

You based your conclusions on this - Theophany (or Christophany as it is known today) and Jewish context which do more to confuse those who are uneducated in context and Christophany, which are some 99% of the people who read the word of God. Any body who has at the least a rudimentry education can read and understand the bible because that is how simple God has made it to read. But folks like you add confusion to that which God has made simple and you know who the author of confusion is right? Satan is the author of confusion.

As for your assertion that Jesus had some geneology, we should remember the the word of God says that God simply spoke and the word became flesh. It had nothing to do with the sperm and the egg binding together like when we were concieved, and the blood line of Jesse was only extended to Mary and not Joseph. Even Jesus himself said "I have no family" when the people around him thaqt his family was looking for him and he didn't go to them, did he?

This is all the Bible tells us about Melchizedek:

Gen. 14

17 Then after his [Abraham's] return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley ). 18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine ; now he was a priest of God Most High. 19 He blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth ; 20 And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand." He gave him a tenth of all.

So, all we see here is that he was both a king-priest, and his priesthood was to God Most High.

Then Psalm 110

4 The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."

What is the order of Melchizedek? Based only on what Scripture tells us, the order seems to be a priest who is a king:

He is the king of Salem, which means "peace; so he is the King of Peace.

And He is a Priest to God Most High.

You are not correct. You missed what the word of God says in the book of Hebrews chapter 7. Which by the way is the number that represents the perfection of God. So I say again. If Melchizedek had no mother, had no father and had no kin folk, who had no beginning of days and no ending of days then he was not born of a woman and was either God, or he was Jesus Christ who is the one and only King of Righteousness.

One should never make any kind of declaration about the word of God unless he/she has done a proper in depth research of all of the facts and all of the scripture needed to make such declarations.

Everything that Jesus did and had is now availible to us. It is possible for a Christian to live a perfect life but because of the desires of the flesh it is highly unlikely.

So far only Jesus has been able to do that.

The opportunity to be saved and live forever was not extended to those who lived in old testament time. They knew that Christ was coming and they knew that Christ was going to save the nations bny they had know idea of the significant role and sacrifice that Christ would play in the future of man kind. For them it was believe in God all of your life and death would be the end of it. Only a few knew better and David was one of them. We need to understand that the whoooole thing from the few seconds it took Adam to doubt and rebel against the command that God gave to him until the end of the book of Revelation is a process that God has put upon man to fix what Adam destroyed. Which was the plan of God for man kind in the beginning. When we are raised from the grave, those who lived before Jesus will not be raised. They will stay in the grave until the Great White Throne Judgment, at which point they to will be judged. The sacrifices were a precursor for the sacrifice of Christ but Christ did not come until men were ready to accept and understand what was expected to become a true member of the body of Christ.