HAZARD

________________________________________________________________________________ How I see it, reading between their lines, This is exactly what unconditional eternal security teaches. They believe Judas was created evil so that Scripture could be fulfilled, and that God gave him no chance to repent. That he was predestined to eternal hell before creation. Peter and the others denied Christ several times and they repented. Jesus even called Peter satan. But they repented. Did God predestin Judas not to repent and kill himself? Or did he brood over his sin and commit suicied? Judas was a saved man who "By transgression fell" and he brooded over his sin and chose to commit suicied. God is not the author of sin or death. Satan is.

Jime wrote; . Perfect answer mate. We must strive to maintain our salvation and fight to good fight lest we succomb to the wiles of Satan and fall under his control! Thanks. Haz.

no I disagree with some of your interpretation. I don't disagree with scripture ever..only man. _________________________________________________________________________ Hi Jackie, If the Antichrist puts his mark on all those who follow him and killes all those who do not recieve his mark, and Jesus Christ sends to eternal Hell, all those who have recieved and accepted the Antichrists mark, then where do the multitudes come from who go on into the millennium as these Ccriptures plainly state. Now I am ot interperpreting this, I am quoting the exact Scriptures what say this. Here they are again: The Bible speaks of many peoples of all nations that are left after the reign of the Antichrist, people who will be alive in the Millennium and will go up yearly to worship God (Zech. 14:16-21). This limits the kingdom of the Antichrist to only part of the world and also limits his ability to kill everyone who does not take the mark even in his own empire. According to Rev. 14:9-11 no one who has taken the mark will go into the Millennium, but will be sent to eternal Hell. That multitudes go into the Millennium proves they have not taken the mark of the beast and have not been killed, as is taught by many Bible students. If Antichrist kills every person on Earth who does not take his mark and the Lord sends to eternal Hell everyone who does take his mark, then there would be no one left alive to enter the Millennium. This would be contrary to Zech. 14:16-21; Matt. 25:31-46; Isa. 2:1-4 and many other Scriptures. (Zech. 14:16-21) (Rev. 14:9-11) (Matt. 25:31-46; Isa. 2:1-4) Haz.

Congradulations on your correct understanding cardcaptor, Scripture is very clear that there will be no single antichrist man to come in the future. Notice that John identified the antichrist as: (1) Already being in the world (2) is now about 2000 years later (3) it, them and many, not "he" (4) The he is describing the liar that denies the Father and the Son (5) The "it" shows "what" antichrist actually is = unbelieving spirit Their is so much itching ear theology being taught today. Granted, there will be a man that will come. He will be known as the man of sin and/or son of perdition. And I believe this man is also the little horn mentioned in Daniel 7, but to assume that he is the anyichrist is just wrong, dead wrong, and there is no scripture to back this false assumption. ____________________________________________________________________--- . ___________________________________________________________________________ I'd like to read those Scriptures outling 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5?

QUOTE I believe in the doctrine of election. I do not believe in "free will." ________________________________________________________________________________ ______________ Anyone who goes through out life without free will is a slave. They must do what they are ordered to do. They have no choice! God does not force anyone to do what He says. He said "therefore CHOOSE LIFE" He did not say I order you to choose life, I order you not to sin, I order you to remain saved. Free moral agency consists of intellect, sensibility, and free will, and these form the foundation of moral obligation to moral government. The intellect includes reason and self determination. The sensibility includes self consciousness, all sensations, desires, emotions, passions, and feelings. Free will is the power of choice concerning moral law. It is mans faculty of choosing good or evil without compulsion or necessity. It was originally created in man, and man will have it throughout eternity.

________________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________ Hi jackie d. I agree with you here. The USA and many if not all the major trading countries will be affected to some degree, and some more than others, just as they were affected durign the last great word. But as Scripture clearly shows, the Antichrist will not rule over America, or the whole world, and will not put his mark on everyone in the entire world etc. Haz. I read your posts about Antichrist and where you say he will rule according to scripture. I don't know that I agree with what you have said regarding where he will rule and I most certainly don't agree with you about the mark and who it will be offered to or forced on. Blessings ________________________________________________________________________________ _________________ So you disagree with these Scriptures, and they are meaningless? The Bible speaks of many peoples of all nations that are left after the reign of the Antichrist, people who will be alive in the Millennium and will go up yearly to worship God (Zech. 14:16-21). This limits the kingdom of the Antichrist to only part of the world and also limits his ability to kill everyone who does not take the mark even in his own empire. According to Rev. 14:9-11 no one who has taken the mark will go into the Millennium, but will be sent to eternal Hell. That multitudes go into the Millennium proves they have not taken the mark of the beast and have not been killed, as is taught by many Bible students. If Antichrist kills every person on Earth who does not take his mark and the Lord sends to eternal Hell everyone who does take his mark, then there would be no one left alive to enter the Millennium. This would be contrary to Zech. 14:16-21; Matt. 25:31-46; Isa. 2:1-4 and many other Scriptures. Haz.

If He is keeping it you cannot loose it. If you are keeping it you WILL loose it. If He does not complete the work that He began He is a liar which cannot be. If He looses us for any reason then He is a liar which cannot be. If eternal life ever stops it is not eternal it is temporary. We cannot even fall for He is the ONe that keeps us from falling. Can the butterfly EVER revert and become a catapillar again? 1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. LT ________________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Dear 'larry't Read these Scriptures again. Eternal life does not make us members of the Deity, for we would then be equal with God. If we were members of the Godhead we could not sin, because God cannot sin; we could not make mistakes, because God cannot mane mistakes. We would be absolutly and eternally holy and would have all the qualities of Deity. We know this is not true of human beings who are in Christ, so they cannot be members of the Deity. If they are not members of the Godhead when they recieve eternal life, then eternal life is not their own life, and therefore, it remains God's life as long as they are in union with God. They are in union with God UNTIL SIN SEPARATES them from Him (Read Isa. 59:2; Rom. 8:12, 13; Ezek. 18:4; Jame 5:19, 20; Gal. 5:19-21; 6:7, 8). Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who has all the qualities of deity and who is a part of the Godhead. He has self-existent life by virtue of being a member of the Deity (1 John 5:7, 8; John 3:16). Men are merely adopted sons and live as long as the penalty death is not passed upon them because of sin after they get into Christ. If this is true, then the teaching about security that men in Christ cannot die again regardless of how much they sin is wholly false. Similarly, the idea is false that one can lose fellowship but not relationship. What good is relationship if one goes to eternal Hell and sufferes the penalty for sin that he would have suffered had he never been saved? Eternal life is given us upon the condition that we remain in Christ by living free from sin and rebellion against God. Lucifer, many angels, demons, and men who were at one time in God's grace and favour are going to spend eternity in Hell regardless of sonship, fellowship, and relationship with God. When fellowship is lost, relationship means nothing. All angels are called "sons of God" (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7). Fallen angels are still "sons of God" but many of them are in Hell today (Read 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6, 7) and all of them will finally go to Hell regardless of sonship (Matt. 25:41). Not one passage in Scripture even hints that a man may lose fellowship because of sin and still retain relationship with God and have eternal life in Heaven. Unconditional securityites say, "A believer can never be lost. If anyone is lost he was never saved . . . Eternal life would not be eternal if it could be lost. Would salvation be salvation if it could be lost? If a single saved man is ever lost, God has failed . . . Christ is insufficient to keep men saved and God is unfaithful to them. . . . Once in Grace always in Grace and once a son always a son is perfectly scriptural." These statements are the most unwise and unscriptural ever taught. They are the basis of a theory that violates the laws of God, nature, and logic. As a mental proposition such a theory assumes an unsound position and is a disgrace to the art of human reasoning. Just because a man is once saved from sin and Hell is no sign that he cannot go back into sin and be lost again and finally go to Hell. No Scripture has yet been found that says a man cannot loose eternal life and no one will ever be able to produce a Scripture that says such a thing, so it will take more than mere human statements to prove this claim. A man saved from a certain kind of death may again become the victim of the kind of death he was once saved from. A man pulled out of the ocean and saved from death can again fall into the same ocean and be rescued again and again and can then finally go back and be drowned. A man lost in the forrest and who has been found can go back into the forrest and be lost and found any number of times. One might as well argue that because a man was lost in the forrest and died without being found, that he was never out of the forrest in the first place, as to argue that a man who is finally lost in Hell was never once saved. One might as well argue that a man was never a man if he was ever lost, as to argue that salvation is not salvation if it could be lost. One might as well argue that an eternal diamond was not eternal should it be lost as to argue that eternal life is not eternal should it ever be lost. Such reasoning is not logical from any standpoint. One may as well argue that once a child of the devil, always a child of the devil; once a sinner, always a sinner; once alive, always alive; once saved from drowning, always saved from drowing; once full of food, always full of food; or some other illogical principle, as to argue once saved, always saved or once a child of God always a child of God or once in grace always in grace. Such argument is out of harmony with all creation and every principle of life. In every phase of life there are certain conditions to meet to maintain that phase of life. Neglect eating food and the body will die; neglect a garden, a home, or anything in the natural realm and it will fall into decay and ruin. So it is with the soul, let it be quickened from above and go back into sin, which causes death, and it will die again. It is not a question of taking man out of the human family, or of the soul ceasing to be a soul shoul it go back into sin and be lost, butit is a question of the continued life of the soul by continuous quickening from above to keep it from dying again. The law is, "IF YE LIVE AFTER THE FLESH, YE SHALL DIE: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body YE SHALL LIVE" (Rom. 8:13) and "THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE" (Ezek. 18:4, 19-24; 33:12-20). "WHOSOEVER HATH SINNED AGAINST ME, HIM WILL I BLOT OUT OF MY BOOK" (Exodus 32:30-35). God said this and He means it. Again we read, "LET THEM BE BLOTTED OUT ON THE BOOK OF THE LIVING, and not written with the righteous" (Psalms 69:28). This is a prophecy of Judas, as proved by a comparison of Acts 1:20 and Psalms 69:25-29). One cannot be blotted out of the book of the living IF ONE WAS NOT ALREADY IN IT TO BEGINE WITH? In Revelation we read, "HE THAT OVERCOMETH, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; AND I WILL NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE" (Rev. 3:5) This passage teaches that if men DO NOT OVERCOME, their names will be blotted out! He that ENDURETH TO THE END shall be saved (Matt. 10:22) It must be possible NOT TO ENDURE TO THE END, or this Scripture is meaningless! "Because iniquity shall about, the love of many SHALL WAX COLD" (Matt. 24:12). When love waxes cold one has lost Christ and eternal life and will be spued out (Rev. 2:4-5; 3:15-16). One who has lost love has lost God, and if one has lost God he has lost grace as stated in (1 John 4:8; 12, 16, 21; Gal. 1:6-8; 5:4; Heb. 12:15). "They hear, recieve the Word with joy . . . WHICH FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY" (Luke 8:13). They that believed for a while where saved, then when tempted, they fell away. It cannot be any clearer than that!

________________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________ Hi jackie d. I agree with you here. The USA and many if not all the major trading countries will be affected to some degree, and some more than others, just as they were affected durign the last great word. But as Scripture clearly shows, the Antichrist will not rule over America, or the whole world, and will not put his mark on everyone in the entire world etc. Haz.

No man will know the exact time of the end of this age in which we live, nor the day or the hour of the second coming of Jesus Christ. All that we may know is "the times and the seasons" which proves the nearness of the second advent (1 Thess. 5:1-9). This study may be of some help regarding the future end time tribulation. http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?show...=49050&st=0

Rev.17 is the eighth parenthetical passage and is an account in some detail of Ecclesiatcial Babylon, her identification, character, power, wickedness, judgement and destruction by the Antichrist and the ten kings, as well as an explanation of the beast and its seven heads and ten horns. It is clear that this passage is parenthetical because this religion is destroyed by the Antichrist and the ten kings in the middle of the Week so that the Antichrist worship may be established (Rev. 17:16-17). Since the beast worship is during the last three and one-half years of the Week, Mystery Babylon must be destroyed at that time (Rev. 13:1-18). Man destroys mystical Babylon (Rev. 17:16, 17), and God destroys literal Babylon (Rev. 18:5-8). God will put the idea into the hearts of the ten kings to give their kingdoms to the beast for the purpose of destroying Mystical Babylon (17:14-17), while this is not true in the case of Literal babylon. The beast and the ten kings will rejoice over the destructuin of Mystical Babylon (Rev. 17:16,17) and they will mourn over the destruction of Literal Babylon (Rev. 18:9-19). Thus it is clear that there are two Babylons in Rev.16:17-18:24. The Identity of Mystical Babylon. According to many Bible scholars and historians the great whore is identified as a great religious system, the Roman Catholic Church, which they claim will fulfill Rev. 17 and dominate the Antichrist for a short time during his rise over the ten kings and untill the middle of the week. Then the beast and the ten kings will destroy her (Rev.17:9-17). Even Catholics divines admit Rev. 17 is a description of their church. (See the writings of Cardinall Ballarmine and the French Prelate, Boussuet.) She has a name on her forhead, "Mystery Babylon The Great" (Rev. 17:5). Now literal Babylon is definity the subject of Rev.16:17-21 and 18:1-24. The fact that the great whore is called mystery Babylon proves a connection with literal Babylon (Rev.17:5). Literal Babylon is the site of the first great rebellion against God after the flood of Noah (Gen.11) and the it will be the site of the last great rebellion Rev. 14:8; 16:17-21; 18:1-24). Literal Babylon is always associated with demon religions and idolatry in scripture (Isa. 21:9; 47:9-10; Rev. 18:2-3, 23). Of all the empires taking part in the times of the Gentiles--Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and Revived Greece, the capitol city of only one (Babylon) is mentioned in prophecy with a latter day fulfillment. Memphis, Ninecah, Shushan, Rome, ect are completly ignored in prophecy, while the capitol city Babylon is mentioned repeatedly. Babylon is the only city in the last days to be the center of scorceries, enchantments, etc. (Rev.18:23; Isa. 49:9-10, 12-13). Rome could not take Babylons place in this. Babylon is the only named city singled out as the object of Gods wrath and plagues (Rev. 16:19; 18:4, 6). If Rome was to be the great city fulfilling such prophecy it surley would have been mentioned instead of Babylon, for Rome was as well known as Babylon at the time John wrote the Revelation. The very absence of the name Rome is no mere accident. God never leaves us in doubt as to the true meaning of His revelation of events to come. Antichrist will be king of Syria with Babylon as his capitol (Isa. 14:4). This will fulfill Dan. 8:8-9, 20-25; 11:35-45. The great whore will ride the beast (Antichrist's kingdom) in his rise to power over the ten kingdoms (Rev.17:3, 7). It should be recognized then, that she symbolizes a religion in his capitol even befor he gets power over the 10 kingdoms of Revised Rome (Rev.17:12-17) Babylon is to be a world commercial center after the rapture of the church. Then Antichrist, who will be king of Babylon (Isa. 14:4) and the Assyrian (Isa. 10:20-27; 30:18-33; 31:4-32:20; Mic. 5:3-15), will destroy this religious system and start his own worship the last 3 1/2 years of this age (Rev. 13:1-18; 14:8-11; 15:2-4; 16:2, 6; 17:12-17; 20:4-6). The word babylon is used 283 times in Scripture and only once in a symbolic sence. Rev. 17:5) Many do not believe in a future literal Babylon and argue that it is in ruins today and will be for ever, and that the Babylon of Rev. 18 is the same as the one in Rev. 17. There is to be a destruction of a literal city called Babylon under the seventh vial (Rev.16:19), for no earthquake could destroy a religious system. Babylon was still a city in New Testament times for Peter refers to a church at Babylon (1 Pet.5:13) and the Babylonian Talmud of the Jews was produced there about 500 years after Christ. Since then Babylon has more or less been deserted and has gone into decay, but it has never been destroyed suddenly by God as has been prophesied in scripture. . Dear Jackie d. The Antichrist will not rule the whole world according to all these scriptures and examples of the use of the word "all" in the Bible. Now, regarding the Extent of Antichrist's Reign (Rev. 13:5-18)(Dan.7:23). The question often arises, "Will the Antichrist have power over all kindreds, tongues, and nations, and will all that dwell on Earth worship him?" While this can generally be answered in the affirmative, still much depends on what is meant by all. If all is used in the most inclusive sense and is meant to include every individual in the known world today, we can say that he will not have this power, but if it is taken to mean all that God has in mind-the latter day ten kingdoms of old Rome--we can say that all will include all affected by the decree made by the Antichrist in his empire. The following points from scripture prove that the Antichrist will not rule America or be a world wide dictator as many students of prophecy teach. 1. The word all in Rev.13 is simply part of the figure of speach called "synecdoche" in which a part is used for a whole and a whole for a part. It is frequently used in scripture as in the following examples: 1."I even I do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherin is the breath of life, from under heaven; and EVERY THING that is in the earth shall die" (Gen.6:17). If we look at this literally as men do Rev.13, we would have Noah and his family and all the animals in the ark dead, for they were also under the Heaven and in the earth and yet did not die. 2. " And they utterly destroyed ALL THAT WERE IN THE CITY, both men and women" refering to the people in Jerico when the wall fell, but "all" here must be understood in a limited sense, for Rahab and all her people were spared (Josh. 6:21-25). 3. "David and ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL played before the Lord" and brought up the ark" (2 Sam.6:5,15). yet not all Israel did this, for many did not know how to play instruments and many were too young and still many more were not even gathered at that one place. 4. "Six months did Joab remain there [out of his own country] with ALL ISRAEL untill he had cut off every male in Edom" (1 Kings 11:16,17). The "ALL ISRAEL" referred to here is part of the army of Israel. 5. In Rom.1:8 Paul said, "Your faith is spoken of throughout the WHOLE WORLD," but we know he meant only that the local church at Rome was known by many in the various parts of the Roman Empire. Multitudes outside of Rome, and even many inside the Empire of Rome had never yet heard of the Christian faith, much less of the local church at Rome. The same thing is true of Col. 1:23 where we read that the gospel had been "Preached to EVERY CREATURE UNDER HEAVEN" and in Rom. 10:18 it was preached "INTO ALL THE EARTH" and ''UNTO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD" The gospel has not even yet been taken to all nations, so we know the whole world was not evangelized in Paul's day. 6. In Acts 11:28 we read of a dearth [famin] "THROUGHOUT ALL THE WORLD" which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. That famin did not cover every part of the Roman Empire much less all continents and islands of the world. Many hundreds of examples can be given to demonstrate the word ALL is used in a figurative sense of a part, so we do not need to believe that Rev.13 and Dan.7:23 means that the Antichrist of the future will literally reign over all the earth and kill all who do not take his mark. We must, therefore, understand the way the word "all" is supposed to be understood in a particular scripture. If it means ALL in the all inclusive sense then there will be no limitations to it in the passage itself or in other scriptures on the same subject. If it means ALL of what it has reference to specifically and it is clear that it means a part of something and this is made clear in the passage itself or in other passages on the same subject, then we must be sensible to recognize the fact that ALL is not inclusive of all men on earth. For example, when Paul said of God that it was His will that "ALL men come to the knowledge of the truth" (1Tim.2:24), we know that this means ALL MEN without exception. But when we read of ALL MEN being baptized of John and in the same passage and in other passages on the subject, it is made clear that many were not baptized, then we take it as a figurative statement expressing that a great many in the region were baptized of John. We can see in both Testaments that God used universal terms in speaking of the extent of certain kingdoms and the powers of certain kings. We can also see that these terms show that only a great part of the earth was ruled by these kings and empires. We can therefore logically conclude that the extent of Antichrists kingdom and power could likewise be limited to a part of the world. Because we can find a number of scriptures limiting his power and authority to a part of the Earth, and they plainly tell us what part of the Earth will be under him and what part will not be under him then we must limit the "ALL" of Rev.13 and Dan. 7:23 to what territory he rules over and not make it universal as many prophetical students do. The Antichrist will be a future mortal man. That he will be a man is clear from Revelation 13:18, "it is the number of A MAN; and his number is six hundred and three score and six" (Rev. 13:18). That he will be a MORTAL MAN is clear from the fact that he will be "slain" by Jesus Christ Himself at His second advent (Read Dan. 7:11; Isa. 11:4; 2 Thess. 2:7-8). If Jesus is going to slay him at His second advent, then he must be a mortal man at that time. This proves he is not a spirit being or a resurrected and immortal man from the dead. NOT EVERY ONE WILL TAKE HIS MARK, AND HE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO KILL EVERY ONE WHO DOES NOT TAKE HIS MARK! The Bible speaks of many peoples of all nations that are left after the reign of the Antichrist, people who will be alive in the Millennium and will go up yearly to worship God (Zech. 14:16-21). This limits the kingdom of the Antichrist to only part of the world and also limits his ability to kill everyone who does not take the mark even in his own empire. According to Rev. 14:9-11 no one who has taken the mark will go into the Millennium, but will be sent to eternal Hell. That multitudes go into the Millennium proves they have not taken the mark of the beast and have not been killed, as is taught by many Bible students. If Antichrist kills every person on Earth who does not take his mark and the Lord sends to eternal Hell everyone who does take his mark, then there would be no one left alive to enter the Millennium. This would be contrary to Zech. 14:16-21; Matt. 25:31-46; Isa. 2:1-4 and many other Scriptures. Many nations of the Earth will be able to buy and sell and yet not be killed for not taking the mark of the beast as proved by the facts and Scriptures in the last two points above. The law that men will not be able to buy or sell applies to the kindreds, tongues, and nations that are inside the ten kingdoms of the future that will be formed inside the Old Roman Empire. If the Antichrist reigns over only these countries, then it is clear that all nations outside of his ten kingdoms will be able to buy and sell and will not be affected by any law he makes in his kingdom. It is a fact that over half the people on Earth today have never heard the name Jesus Christ or of His gospel. Multitudes of peoples in the interior of Africa, South America, India Australia Tibet and many parts of the Earth do not know there have been two world wars in a generation. It will be equally true that these peoples will never get to know there has been an Antichrist and a great tribulation on Earth until Christ and the saints of all ages come and extend the kingdom of Christ from Jerusalem to the ends of the earth in the Millennium. To believe one human being called the Antichrist ruling over ten kingdoms inside the Roman Empire Territory, can take over the entire Earth and literally kill all who do not take his mark, is saying one human being is going to do more in forty-two months or 1260 days in establishing his religion on Earth than God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and the whole Church have done in over nineteen centuries to get the gospel out. The mark of the beast is not to be 666. There are three brands men will have a choice of taking in the days of the Antichrist inside his kingdom. They are his name, his mark, and the number of his name. (Rev.13:16-18). The name and mark of this man is not given in any scripture; so no one will know what they are until he comes and men get to know what his name will be and what mark he will choose to put on his followers. The only one of these three brands that is given is the number of his name, and that is stated as being 666 in Rev. 13:18. So 666 is not the name or the mark of the beast It is only the number of the beast.

First off, in terms of Bible teachers, I personally doubt that anyone here hasn't used the teachings of teachers who strike a cord with their personal belief. Taking teachings of what someone else teaches when they're stumped on a scriptural issue, and then stating it as fact in a debate. Keep in mind that a Jehovah Witness can come on this board, and get involved on a given debate. If I recall correctly from a conversation with one awhile back, they have a comeback for any scripture from our bible. Secondly, it works both ways as far as pinning the problems that occur with believers who follow the various teachings. I would venture to say there are people that use the conditional security teaching in a very unbalanced fashion. By it's over emphasis, suspicion can tend to occur about who is a genuine brother or sister. While it is true we need to be wary of false teachers, and wolves in sheep's clothing, a very unhealthy attitude towards brothers and sisters in general becomes a factor. And to be quite frank, comments like who has the Holy Spirit working in them and who doesn't, tends to shed shades of similarities to this very thought pattern. This is not the Apostle Paul's balanced approach at all in my opinion of what I see in scripture. He stated some were immature, some in danger of dying early, some in danger of severe chastisement, etc. Only in some extreme specific situations did he question the authenticity of one being a genuine believer. More emphasis can be placed on making sure someone has a self-satisfactory fear of salvation loss, than praying that God Himself who is more able to keep someone from sinning will deal with them. One should also consider that if you're not struggling with some sort of addiction that causes you to stumble (like drugs for instance), it's only by the shear grace of God you're not walking in those shoes at this very moment. If you think it's by your own powerful might you might want to think again. ________________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Dear PM. I have over the years read, and listened to many self-called Christians make statements like; "I know I have the Holy Spirit living in me and guiding me," and they then go on to ridicule and berate others, Christians or not, usually only because they do not agree. As far as keeping myself from stumbling every day, I am a hopeless case. But, I do pray, sometimes several times a day, and especially after I have sinned, I ask God, in Jesus Holy Name to forgive me of all sin. These following Scriptures should be enough for any follower of Christ to realise that we are only in union with God UNTIL SIN SEPARATES us from Him (Read Isa. 59:2; Rom. 8:12, 13; Ezek. 18:4; Jame 5:19, 20; Gal. 5:19-21; 6:7, 8). When the soul sins it dies, or it is separated from God, and it forfeits the life of God by this sin, hence it loses the life it could have had eternally if it had remained in union with God and holy eternally. The sinful soul apart from God continues to function but it is "dead" or "separated" from God whos life the soul enjoyed as long as it remained in union with Him. If it never becomes united with God again it remains dead and separated from God and the life which is eternal in God. This is why the soul suffers eternal death or separation from God (Mark 9:45; Isa. 66:22-24; Rev. 14:9-12; 19:20; 20:10-15; 21:8). The continued life in Hell is not called eternal life for the same reason the sinning soul is considered dead while on Earth (Matt. 8:22; Eph. 2:1-9; 1 Tim. 5:6). It is not true normal in harmony with God. It is only existing out of union with God contrary to the created purpose. Men are considered dead to sin and Satan when they are separated from them and are in union with God (Rom. 6:2, 7-13; 8:10; 1 Pet. 2:24). and they are also considered dead to God when they are separated from God and in union with sin and Satan (Rom. 6:1-23; Eph. 2;1-9; Col. 2:13; Isa. 59:2). Faith is even sapoken of as being dead when separated from workd (Read James 2:17-26). If the soul loses its own life when it sins, then it would cease to exist, for to be separated from its own life means cessation of existence, and this the Bible never teaches by death, as seen in the above passages. In this case, there would be no need of a resurrection, judgment, or an eternal Hell. The soul is not the physical blood, for the blood cannot sin of itself like the soul. The soul lives when the blood is gone and the body has decayed. If the blood were the soul then every time any blood is lost, part of the soul would be lost. When one loses his soul he loses himself, not merely the blood (Luke 9:25 with Mark 8:36). Sin proceeds from the inner man not from part of the body (1 Cor. 6:18; Mark 7:19-21). When God said to Adam, "Ye shall surely die" He meant it and whe He says to SAVED MEN today that the soul that sinneth it shall die, He means it. This applies to ALL MEN who sin and SAVED MEN today are NO EXCEPTION. Both Adam and Eve believed the first teacher of unconditional security, the Devil, and they lost their eternal life. So it is today with all who sin and believe the lie of the devil that sinning-saints cannot be lost. Eternal life does not make us members of the Deity, for we would then be equal with God. If we were members of the Godhead we could not sin, because God cannot sin; we could not make mistakes, because God cannot mane mistakes. We would be absolutly and eternally holy and would have all the qualities of Deity. We know this is not true of human beings who are in Christ, so they cannot be members of the Deity. If they are not members of the Godhead when they recieve eternal life, then eternal life is not their own life, and therefore, it remains God's life as long as they are in union with God. They are in union with God UNTIL SIN SEPARATES them from Him (Read Isa. 59:2; Rom. 8:12, 13; Ezek. 18:4; Jame 5:19, 20; Gal. 5:19-21; 6:7, 8). Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who has all the qualities of deity and who is a part of the Godhead. He has self-existent life by virtue of being a member of the Deity (1 John 5:7, 8; John 3:16). Men are merely adopted sons and live as long as the penalty death is not passed upon them because of sin after they get into Christ. If this is true, then the teaching about security that men in Christ cannot die again regardless of how much they sin is wholly false. Similarly, the idea is false that one can lose fellowship but not relationship. What good is relationship if one goes to eternal Hell and sufferes the penalty for sin that he would have suffered had he never been saved? Eternal life is given us upon the condition that we remain in Christ by living free from sin and rebellion against God. Lucifer, many angels, demons, and men who were at one time in God's grace and favour are going to spend eternity in Hell regardless of sonship, fellowship, and relationship with God. When fellowship is lost, relationship means nothing. All angels are called "sons of God" (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7). Fallen angels are still "sons of God" but many of them are in Hell today (Read 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6, 7) and all of them will finally go to Hell regardless of sonship (Matt. 25:41). Not one passage in Scripture even hints that a man may lose fellowship because of sin and still retain relationship with God and have eternal life in Heaven.

and Christ said....... that there is only one way to the Father, and that is through the Son.... not mohomad, not buddah, not dali lama, not joe smith, not anyone but the SON.................. it is also written that it is not by works a man can get to Heaven, yes, their conscience will help guide them, but with out Christ, they are lost...... as far as society, there is one rule that would not hold up in the Court of God, and that is what one sect follow and that is "If it doesn't hurt anyone, then it is ok" cheating on ones spouse may not hurt the spouse, should they never find out about it, does that make it right???? not according to the Word of God... even looking upon another with lust (who does that hurt)..... there are many rules of the lands that do not line up with the rules of God.... just cause it is legal, dont make it right.... Those with out Christ, do not see the first Resurrection..... those with out Christ have not accepted the Gift of Salvation, it has been offered, they are not accepting it, no matter how they live....... if that was the way it would be, then why did Christ come to Earth??? if i could do good, and get to Heaven, then I would not need Christ..... but the thing is, NO ONE IS GOOD..... SAVE THE FATHER....... so, we all need to accept what has been offered to get into the Kingdom of Heaven...... the Free Gift of Salvation... we must accept it to have it, it is presented before us, for us to accept..... just like if some one came to your house and offered you a birthday present..... you have a choice to make, to either reject it, or receive it... if you shut the dooor, you have not said you reject it, but your actions have shown that..... The Gosple of Jesus Christ is being offered up in EVERY COUNTRY on this earth..... it is up to the people to accept the gift..... if they do not, they will be lost..... flat, cut, and dried..... no if's, and's or butttts about it mike Christ came to Earth to save all men who must first have heard of Him to Know Him, then accept Him and believe in Him. And, in coming, He also saved all men who have lived a good life in the society they lived in according to Pauls statement in Romans 2:12-16. You see, Paul stated in Romans 2:12-16 that God will do the right thing by EVERY MAN according to the light he has recieved. Paul said, "For as many as have sinned WITH OUT LAW SHALL ALSO PERISH WITH OUT LAW: and as many as have sinned IN THE LAW SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW; (For not the hearers of the law are JUST BEFORE GOD BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW shall be justified. People who have never heard fo God, but who do the right thing in their society, and in the time they lived on the Earth shall be judged accordingly. For when the Gentiles which have NOT THE LAW, do BY NATURE the things contained in the law, these HAVING NOT THE LAW, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCE ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge THE SECRETS OF MEN BY JESUS CHRIST ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL! Now if you can't get your mind around these Scriptures, then as a free moral agent you can believe what you wish. God will not condemn a man who had never heard of Him, Jesus, or His gospel, as long as the man lived properly, having not the law, but obeying the law in their heart and conscience, in other words, doing the right thing and not doing the things you mentioned which are sin. Have you heard of the Bush tribesmen of central Africa, The pygmies of the Amazon, The New Guinian Highlanders? Many thousands of these people have lived and died, and still to-day, have not heard of Jesus Christ.

________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________ Hi Mike. Yes, the USA and many other countires of the world are in trouble today such as they never was in the past, but this has nothing to do with the future rise of the Antichrist and the countries over which he shall rule over. I mean, the Scriptures are quite clear on this issue. "the fourth beast" shall be the fourth kingdom upon the earth [from Daniel's time to Christ's coming] which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth....And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall arise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first [ten] and shall subdue three kings [of the ten, which are the other three divisions of Greece besides Syria, the one the Antichrist shall come from]" (Dan. 7:23-24), "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have recieved no kingdom as yet: but recieve power as kings one hour [period] with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them. The Old Roman Empire is to be revived. So, in what form will she exist. There will never be a Revived Roman Empire as a single empire ruled by one man as in the Old Roman Empire, but there will be ten separate governments formed inside this territory, as the seventh head on the beast. This kingdom could best be called the Revised Roman Empire. Rome is to exist in the form of ten kingdoms in the last days before the revelation of both Christ and Antichrist. These kingdoms will still be in existence during the appearance of both and will be overthrown, first by Antichrist and then by Christ. In Dan. 2:40-45 we have the first picture of Rome symbolized by two legs of iron and ten toes of iron and clay. Rome never has existed yet in the form of separate kingdoms, as symbolized by the ten toes, so in order for all the prophecy to be fulfilled it must exist as such. However Rome has existed as one kingdom, symbolized by the lower part of the body, where the legs are joined to the body. Then too, Rome has existed in the form of two divisions as symbolized by the two legs of iron, representing the eastern and western divisions of the empire. The time of the existence of the ten kingdoms is clearly stated in Dan.2:44-45 as being in the day that the God of Heaven sets up a kingdom. God has yet not set up His kingdom and will not do so untill the coming of His Son, Jesus Christ, who will reign forever (Isa.9:6, 7: Dan. 7:13-14; Rev. 11:15). This proves that the Roman Empire will again exist in a new form of ten kingdoms at the time of the second advent,which will succeed old Rome as Rome succeeded the first five heads (kingdoms) on the beast. The ten toes of the two feet on the two legs of Dan. 2:38-45 represent ten kingdoms from the eastern and western divisions of Rome, five from one and five from the other. The phrase "the kingdom" is used twice in Dan. 2:40-45 and shows the unity of the ten kingdoms in some kind of loose federation. Dan. 7:7-27 shows that there will come out of Rome ten kingdoms which will exist at the same time as the above ten kings. The additional prophecy given here is that "another little horn," called "the beast" in Dan. 7:11, will arise "after them" and overthrow three others. This little horn will continue "untill the Ancient of days" comes, and judgment is given to the saints of the Most High, and the time arrives for the saints to possess the kingdom. This relates to the coming of Christ to destroy the Antichrist and the ten kings and set up His kingdom, and proves that these ten kings and the eleventh king will all exist at the time of the coming of Christ. The ten will give their kingdoms to the eleventh or the beast, and they together will destroy Mystery Babylon, or religion in the middle of the Week, and then three and one half years later, they will fight Christ at Armageddon (Rev. 17:12-17). This beast of Dan. 7:11 is to be slain like the one in Rev. 19:20. Thus we see that Rome is to revised and exist in the form of ten separate kingdoms. Now, regarding the Extent of Antichrist's Reign (Rev. 13:5-18)(Dan.7:23). The question often arises, "Will the Antichrist have power over all kindreds, tongues, and nations, and will all that dwell on Earth worship him?" While this can generally be answered in the affirmative, still much depends on what is meant by all. If all is used in the most inclusive sense and is meant to include every individual in the known world today, we can say that he will not have this power, but if it is taken to mean all that God has in mind-the latter day ten kingdoms of old Rome--we can say that all will include all affected by the decree made by the Antichrist in his empire. The following points from scripture prove that the Antichrist will not rule America or be a world wide dictator as many students of prophecy teach. 1. The word all in Rev.13 is simply part of the figure of speach called "synecdoche" in which a part is used for a whole and a whole for a part. It is frequently used in scripture as in the following examples: 1."I even I do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherin is the breath of life, from under heaven; and EVERY THING that is in the earth shall die" (Gen.6:17). If we look at this literally as men do Rev.13, we would have Noah and his family and all the animals in the ark dead, for they were also under the Heaven and in the earth and yet did not die. 2. " And they utterly destroyed ALL THAT WERE IN THE CITY, both men and women" refering to the people in Jerico when the wall fell, but "all" here must be understood in a limited sense, for Rahab and all her people were spared (Josh. 6:21-25). 3. "David and ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL played before the Lord" and brought up the ark" (2 Sam.6:5,15). yet not all Israel did this, for many did not know how to play instruments and many were too young and still many more were not even gathered at that one place. 4. "Six months did Joab remain there [out of his own country] with ALL ISRAEL untill he had cut off every male in Edom" (1 Kings 11:16,17). The "ALL ISRAEL" referred to here is part of the army of Israel. 5. In Rom.1:8 Paul said, "Your faith is spoken of throughout the WHOLE WORLD," but we know he meant only that the local church at Rome was known by many in the various parts of the Roman Empire. Multitudes outside of Rome, and even many inside the Empire of Rome had never yet heard of the Christian faith, much less of the local church at Rome. The same thing is true of Col. 1:23 where we read that the gospel had been "Preached to EVERY CREATURE UNDER HEAVEN" and in Rom. 10:18 it was preached "INTO ALL THE EARTH" and ''UNTO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD" The gospel has not even yet been taken to all nations, so we know the whole world was not evangelized in Paul's day. 6. In Acts 11:28 we read of a dearth [famin] "THROUGHOUT ALL THE WORLD" which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. That famin did not cover every part of the Roman Empire much less all continents and islands of the world. Many hundreds of examples can be given to demonstrate the word ALL is used in a figurative sense of a part, so we do not need to believe that Rev.13 and Dan.7:23 means that the Antichrist of the future will literally reign over all the earth and kill all who do not take his mark. We must, therefore, understand the way the word "all" is supposed to be understood in a particular scripture. If it means ALL in the all inclusive sense then there will be no limitations to it in the passage itself or in other scriptures on the same subject. If it means ALL of what it has reference to specifically and it is clear that it means a part of something and this is made clear in the passage itself or in other passages on the same subject, then we must be sensible to recognize the fact that ALL is not inclusive of all men on earth. For example, when Paul said of God that it was His will that "ALL men come to the knowledge of the truth" (1Tim.2:24), we know that this means ALL MEN without exception. But when we read of ALL MEN being baptized of John and in the same passage and in other passages on the subject, it is made clear that many were not baptized, then we take it as a figurative statement expressing that a great many in the region were baptized of John. We can see in both Testaments that God used universal terms in speaking of the extent of certain kingdoms and the powers of certain kings. We can also see that these terms show that only a great part of the earth was ruled by these kings and empires. We can therefore logically conclude that the extent of Antichrists kingdom and power could likewise be limited to a part of the world. Because we can find a number of scriptures limiting his power and authority to a part of the Earth, and they plainly tell us what part of the Earth will be under him and what part will not be under him then we must limit the "ALL" of Rev.13 and Dan. 7:23 to what territory he rules over and not make it universal as many prophetical students do.

This statement is proved by the following scriptures. He will reign over only ten kingdoms that are yet to be formed inside the yet to be revived, Old Roman Empire. (Dan. 7:23-24). Only these ten kingdoms will give their power and kingdoms to him. (Rev.13:1; 17:12-17). Certain countries will escape his rule (Dan.11:40-44). Certain countries will make war on him at the very time he is supposed to be ruling the whole world (Dan. 11:40-44). Because he will reign only over ten countries inside the Roman Empire territory and because America is not inside that territoryand never will be, and because certain countries will escape him we can scripturally conclude that he will never rule America or be a world-wide dictator. Therefore, multitudes of people of many nations will also never take the mark of the beast and they will never be killed by the Antichrist for not doing so. The Bible speaks of many peoples of many nations that are left after the reign of the Antichrist, people who will be alive in the Millennium and will go up yearly to worship God (Zech. 14:16-21). This further limits the kingdom of the Antichrist to only part of the world and also limits his ability to kill every one who does not take the mark even in his own empire. According to Rev. 14:9-11 no one who has taken the mark will go into the Millennium, but will be sent to eternal Hell. That multitudes go into the Millennium proves they have not taken the mark of the beast and have not been killed, as taught by many Bible students. If the Antichrist were to kill every person who does not take his mark, and God sends to Hell every one who does take the mark, then there would be not one person left to enter the Millennium. Also, The mark of the beast will not be 666. There are three brands men will have a choice of taking in the days of the Antichrist inside his kingdom. They are his name, his mark, and the number of his name (Rev. 13:16-18). The name and mark of this man is not given in scripture; so no one will know what they are until he comes and men get to know what his name and mark will be, and what he will chose to put on his followers. The only one of these three brands that is given is the number of his name, and that is stated as being 666 in Rev. 13:18. So 666 is not the name or the mark of the beast. It is the number of the beast.

You know, one thing I am sure of is this. Jesus Christ died for every man woman and child who accepts Him and His sacrifice for them. He also paid the death penalty for those who had never heard of Him, God the Father, or God the Holy Ghost, or the gospel, as long as they have, lived the good life on the basis of the light they have recieved and followed and obeyed their own conscience regarding good and evil in the society and in the age in which they lived. Romans 2:12-16 is very clear on this. You see, Paul stated in Romans 2:12-16 that God will do the right thing by EVERY MAN according to the light he has recieved. Paul said, "For as many as have sinned WITH OUT LAW SHALL ALSO PERISH WITH OUT LAW: and as many as have sinned IN THE LAW SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW; (For not the hearers of the law are JUST BEFORE GOD BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW shall be justified. People who have never heard fo God, but who do the right thing in their society, and in the time they lived on the Earth shall be judged accordingly. For when the Gentiles which have NOT THE LAW, do BY NATURE the things contained in the law, these HAVING NOT THE LAW, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCE ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge THE SECRETS OF MEN BY JESUS CHRIST ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL! Praise God for ever more, He is a Just and merciful God! Haz.

________________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________ Now you are straining at the bit. A parent who does not know Jesus or the gosple, especially one who would never even have heard of God or Jesus, or the gospel, how could they then pass on knowledge of either to their babies. We need to get real here and stop being childish about serious things. Would a Papuan Highlander, a head hunter, two thousand years ago, pass on the knowledge of God, the gosple, or Jesus Christ to his children? How about Pygmies in the Amazon about three thousand years ago? Haz.

At the second death they will be thrown in the lake of fire ________________________________________________________________________________ ________ No they wont be thrown in the lake of fire at the second death. What about innocent babies, dying at birth. What about children in India, and as grapeseed said, Islamists, Hindus, and other peoples easily fall into this category. Seemingly, through no fault of their own, they have not heard the good news. Millions who have lived and died in Tibet, central Australia, South America, what about all the millions of people who have died throughout history never having heard of Jesus Christ,or even God, at all? One needs to read these Scriptures and get a handle on them and try and understand what Paul is stating here. The fact is, God is no respector of persons. In other words, whether you were born a thousand years ago and never heard of Him or Jesus, He will judge you according to how you lived your life and obeyed your conscience. We can all decipher between good and evil in any century. "For there is no respect of persons with God (Romans 2:11). "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish with-out law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, do by nature the things CONTAINED IN THE LAW, these having NOT THE LAW, ARE A LAW UNTO THEMSELVES: Which shew the work of THE LAW WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCE also BEARING WITNESS, and their THOUGHTS the mean while EXCUSING ONE ANOTHER;)" (ROMANS 2:11-15). In other words; "God will deal with every one, including the heathen, who have never heard of the gospel. He will deal with them on the basis of the light they have recieved, and on the basis of obeying their own conscience" Haz. It just blows me away that people don't get that. Yes, if the above is not true, it will be standing room only in Hell. Imagine how many billions of men, women, and innocent children have died over the ages who have never ever heard of Jesus Christ let alone seen a Bible?. And also, Heaven wont be over croweded under the same circumstance. Haz. I am just glad to find out that faith in Christ is no longer needed, that indeed Christ is no longer needed. Ooops maybe not: Romans: 19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

swordfish quotes John 3:3. In John 3:3 Jesus in not refering to everyone who has ever been born, and lived and died throughout the ages, not having know Him or the gospel. And He certinly is not applying this Scripture to them in any way. In John 3;3 Jesus is talking to those who have heard and did know of Him. Notice in John 3:1-2 "There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, who came to Jesus and said to Him, Rabbi, we know thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest except God be with Him." Jesus answered him John 3:3. "Verily, verily, I say unto THEE, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Jesus replied to Nicodemus; I say unto THEE, Nicodemus, and the many others like you, those who know at least as much as you know, not the billions who have died never knowing Me of God, or the gospel. Nicodemus continued to try and trick Jesus with further questions and failed. Finally in verse 10 Jesus answered and said to Nicodemus: "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" See how clear it is when looked at honestly. Jesus was answering a man who knew God, and supposedly knew at least the Old testament. Jesus words in John 3;3 were not directed to innocent babies, women, children, men, of all nationalities and or religeous persuasion who have died never knowing Him, or the true God, and never having heard of the gospel. Haz.

At the second death they will be thrown in the lake of fire ________________________________________________________________________________ ________ No they wont be thrown in the lake of fire at the second death. What about innocent babies, dying at birth. What about children in India, and as grapeseed said, Islamists, Hindus, and other peoples easily fall into this category. Seemingly, through no fault of their own, they have not heard the good news. Millions who have lived and died in Tibet, central Australia, South America, what about all the millions of people who have died throughout history never having heard of Jesus Christ,or even God, at all? One needs to read these Scriptures and get a handle on them and try and understand what Paul is stating here. The fact is, God is no respector of persons. In other words, whether you were born a thousand years ago and never heard of Him or Jesus, He will judge you according to how you lived your life and obeyed your conscience. We can all decipher between good and evil in any century. "For there is no respect of persons with God (Romans 2:11). "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish with-out law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, do by nature the things CONTAINED IN THE LAW, these having NOT THE LAW, ARE A LAW UNTO THEMSELVES: Which shew the work of THE LAW WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCE also BEARING WITNESS, and their THOUGHTS the mean while EXCUSING ONE ANOTHER;)" (ROMANS 2:11-15). In other words; "God will deal with every one, including the heathen, who have never heard of the gospel. He will deal with them on the basis of the light they have recieved, and on the basis of obeying their own conscience" Haz. It just blows me away that people don't get that. Yes, if the above is not true, it will be standing room only in Hell. Imagine how many billions of men, women, and innocent children have died over the ages who have never ever heard of Jesus Christ let alone seen a Bible?. And also, Heaven wont be over croweded under the same circumstance. Haz.

At the second death they will be thrown in the lake of fire ________________________________________________________________________________ ________ No they wont be thrown in the lake of fire at the second death. What about innocent babies, dying at birth. What about children in India, and as grapeseed said, Islamists, Hindus, and other peoples easily fall into this category. Seemingly, through no fault of their own, they have not heard the good news. Millions who have lived and died in Tibet, central Australia, South America, what about all the millions of people who have died throughout history never having heard of Jesus Christ,or even God, at all? One needs to read these Scriptures and get a handle on them and try and understand what Paul is stating here. The fact is, God is no respector of persons. In other words, whether you were born a thousand years ago and never heard of Him or Jesus, He will judge you according to how you lived your life and obeyed your conscience. We can all decipher between good and evil in any century. "For there is no respect of persons with God (Romans 2:11). "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish with-out law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, do by nature the things CONTAINED IN THE LAW, these having NOT THE LAW, ARE A LAW UNTO THEMSELVES: Which shew the work of THE LAW WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCE also BEARING WITNESS, and their THOUGHTS the mean while EXCUSING ONE ANOTHER;)" (ROMANS 2:11-15). In other words; "God will deal with every one, including the heathen, who have never heard of the gospel. He will deal with them on the basis of the light they have recieved, and on the basis of obeying their own conscience" Haz.

That is not what that is saying. If God is no respector of persons then why would he allow those who have not heard the gospel to continue living in all the vile sins that can be abominable in nature yet send one who has heard the truth to hell for being a thief or a liar? Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. That makes no sense and is a great contradiction. Let's take a look at judgement day. Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Revelation 20:11-13 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. We have the ability through the bible to know what is going to happen in judgement day. We also have the ability to know how to get to heaven and what takes people to hell. ________________________________________________________________________________ __________ Yet it is what ithis scripture is saying. You wrote "If God is no respector of persons then why would he allow those who have not heard the gospel to continue living in all the vile sins that can be abominable in nature yet send one who has heard the truth to hell for being a thief or a liar?" These people, who have never heard of God or the gospel are judged according to the way they lived their lives in the society they lived in, and according to their conscience. Before I ever heard of God, the Word, the Bible, etc., I knew what was right and what was wrong. My parents, who were not christian taught me the rules by which they lived in the country they were, and I was born. There were rules and laws by which we all lived, Some obeyed these rules and laws, others broke them. I knew it was wriong to steal anothers property, I knew one never abused one's parents, or raped little children, or bashed and robed the elderly. Yet there were people at that time who were doning these things and they will be judged accordingly. Not knowing God is no excuse to commit crime. Even the American Indians knew there was a Great One, a God who they looked to. They had their own laws by which they lived and some lived by them and others probably never did. They never had the Bible did they? Some would have died with a clear conscience, others without.

When the soul sins it dies, or it is separated from God, and it forfeits the life of God by this sin, hence it loses the life it could have had eternally if it had remained in union with God and holy eternally. The sinful soul apart from God continues to function but it is "dead" or "separated" from God whos life the soul enjoyed as long as it remained in union with Him. If it never becomes united with God again it remains dead and separated from God and the life which is eternal in God. This is why the soul suffers eternal death or separation from God (Mark 9:45; Isa. 66:22-24; Rev. 14:9-12; 19:20; 20:10-15; 21:8). The continued life in Hell is not called eternal life for the same reason the sinning soul is considered dead while on Earth (Matt. 8:22; Eph. 2:1-9; 1 Tim. 5:6). It is not true normal in harmony with God. It is only existing out of union with God contrary to the created purpose. Men are considered dead to sin and Satan when they are separated from them and are in union with God (Rom. 6:2, 7-13; 8:10; 1 Pet. 2:24). and they are also considered dead to God when they are separated from God and in union with sin and Satan (Rom. 6:1-23; Eph. 2;1-9; Col. 2:13; Isa. 59:2). Faith is even sapoken of as being dead when separated from workd (Read James 2:17-26). If the soul loses its own life when it sins, then it would cease to exist, for to be separated from its own life means cessation of existence, and this the Bible never teaches by death, as seen in the above passages. In this case, there would be no need of a resurrection, judgment, or an eternal Hell. The soul is not the physical blood, for the blood cannot sin of itself like the soul. The soul lives when the blood is gone and the body has decayed. If the blood were the soul then every time any blood is lost, part of the soul would be lost. When one loses his soul he loses himself, not merely the blood (Luke 9:25 with Mark 8:36). Sin proceeds from the inner man not from part of the body (1 Cor. 6:18; Mark 7:19-21). When God said to Adam, "Ye shall surely die" He meant it and whe He says to SAVED MEN today that the soul that sinneth it shall die, He means it. This applies to ALL MEN who sin and SAVED MEN today are NO EXCEPTION. Both Adam and Eve believed the first teacher of unconditional security, the Devil, and they lost their eternal life. So it is today with all who sin and believe the lie of the devil that sinning-saints cannot be lost. Eternal life does not make us members of the Deity, for we would then be equal with God. If we were members of the Godhead we could not sin, because God cannot sin; we could not make mistakes, because God cannot mane mistakes. We would be absolutly and eternally holy and would have all the qualities of Deity. We know this is not true of human beings who are in Christ, so they cannot be members of the Deity. If they are not members of the Godhead when they recieve eternal life, then eternal life is not their own life, and therefore, it remains God's life as long as they are in union with God. They are in union with God UNTIL SIN SEPARATES them from Him (Read Isa. 59:2; Rom. 8:12, 13; Ezek. 18:4; Jame 5:19, 20; Gal. 5:19-21; 6:7, 8). Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who has all the qualities of deity and who is a part of the Godhead. He has self-existent life by virtue of being a member of the Deity (1 John 5:7, 8; John 3:16). Men are merely adopted sons and live as long as the penalty death is not passed upon them because of sin after they get into Christ. If this is true, then the teaching about security that men in Christ cannot die again regardless of how much they sin is wholly false. Similarly, the idea is false that one can lose fellowship but not relationship. What good is relationship if one goes to eternal Hell and sufferes the penalty for sin that he would have suffered had he never been saved? Eternal life is given us upon the condition that we remain in Christ by living free from sin and rebellion against God. Lucifer, many angels, demons, and men who were at one time in God's grace and favour are going to spend eternity in Hell regardless of sonship, fellowship, and relationship with God. When fellowship is lost, relationship means nothing. All angels are called "sons of God" (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7). Fallen angels are still "sons of God" but many of them are in Hell today (Read 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6, 7) and all of them will finally go to Hell regardless of sonship (Matt. 25:41). Not one passage in Scripture even hints that a man may lose fellowship because of sin and still retain relationship with God and have eternal life in Heaven.

Yes, Jesus is the mediator, the ONE mediator, the ONLY mediator, He is the ONE who decides who will be saved, get to Heaven. There is NO, I repeat NO mediator here on earth who gets to decide who will be saved and get to Heaven or not. NOT ONE person here on earth decides. The ONE and ONLY mediator decides. And nobody knows until they meet the ONE and ONLY mediator after death. And that is what keeps us on our toes, those of us who want to be chosen, keeps us working, striving toward Jesus to be chosen. Otherwise, why bother. And anyone who does not know who Jesus is, Jesus the ONE and ONLY mediator will decide. And I suspect that He will not hold against them that they never heard of Him. ________________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________ And anyone who does not know who Jesus is, Jesus the ONE and ONLY mediator will decide. And I suspect that He will not hold against them that they never heard of Him. Dear Mareesta, According to Paul in Romans 2:11-15; you are spot on mate! Haz.

Actually, if bothered to pay attention that view has not been propagated on this thread. In fact, the opposite has been said. Those who are truly in grace, wrestle against sin. They dont look for ways to sin. They have a new set of desires, and a new desires of want tos. Part of the problem in debates like this is when people like you poison the well by attributing to your opponents a position they do not hold to. It is dishonest, and demonstrates a lack of real integrity. It seems the only way you have anything to say, is to put the lie in our mouths and then argue against it. As worried as you are about losing your salvation, it does not stop you from sacrificing your integrity to win a debate. I am not worried at all. Did you fully read and understand what I have posted. Man is a free moral agent and man can at any time choose to serve God or as a free moral agent he can freely choose to return to sin and serve the devil. The first thing to settle is the question of whether man is a free moral agent or not, for if man is not a free moral agent then God can be held entirely responsible for sin, rebellion, sickness, and all the effects of sin, as well as the damnation of men and angels, as unconditional security men teach. A saved man has the same power of choice as he had before salvation. His desires are changed in salvation, but he can again permit the same old desires to take hold of him again and the flesh can gain ascendency over him again and he can choose to live in the old sins again. If he chooses to sin again he incurs the same death penalty and will be damned as much as if he had never been saved (Read Ezek. 18:4; Rom. 6:14-23; 8:1-13; Gal. 6:7-8; James 5:19-20). In matters outside the moral realm in which man has no choice, such as the case where man is not free to choose to be born, such has nothing to do with free moral agency which every man has when he is born. He is, as he grown up, free to choose his own destiny by choice of the life he lives serving God or Satan. It is only when man becomes a free moral agent that he is held responsible. To say that a man has no will power when he chooses to go back into sin and becomes overpowered by sin and Satan is to state a falsehood. If man can resist sin at all it proves will power on his part. If he is exercising will in the least degree concerning moral things it proves he is a free moral agent. To be a servant of Christ does not do away with will power. It proves that the man does have such power or he could not have chosen to turn from Satan and sin. To believe otherwise would make God an unjust tyrant holding slaves in greater bondage than Satan ever did. God always gives men freedom of action to serve Him. When they volintarily turn to Him He delivers them from Satan and sin and permits perfect freedom of action as to whether they will continue to serve Him or go back into sin.

Dear Thaddaeus and WhSoBlind. Thank you for your responses. The Scriptures do not lie and it pleases me that there still are some men who actually believe what they say and not what men think they say. Also, when reading responses, one can discerne who actually has the Holy Spirit working in them and who thinks they have Him working in themselves, by their attitude alone if nothing else. For those who believe they have unconditional eternal security, please be aware of these facts. Under the guise of honouring the finished work of Christ on the cross, some teachers lead many to believe that once a person is in grace, he will always be in grace, regardless of how much he sins thereafter. Such teachings masquerade under various names, and are believed by a great many people because they seem plausable; and furthermore they are sometimes championed by Bible scholars of national reputation. Regrettably, for too many people the teaching of eternal security becomes eternal security, for they laps into a sinning-saint religion which will truly bring them dissapointments on Judgment Day. Many people accept the arguments because of the ignorance of the full scope of Scriptures on the subject, while there are no doubt others who, being fully blind will praise it because they want an excuse to sin. That there is a true sense in which every believer can have "everlasting life" and be "eternally secure" cannot be denied fir they are possible whenever God's conditions are met. The foremost question involved in the doctrin of the Christians eternal security is: On whom does this responsibility rest to bring about this coveted state? To this we may add: Under which conditions, if any, may it be obtained? Are there "any strings attached" as we would commonly say? Could it be unconditional, or is there a possibility that somewhere in the Bible, we are to find conditions that belong to the doctrin as well as the blessings of security forever? The Bible does teach conditional eternal security, which is the only kind of security a sane man can expect and a just God can tolorate and promis. But to teach an unconditional eternal security and maintain this position in the face of overwhelming scriptural authority to the contrary is to make God the most unjust tyrant of the universe. To do so, one must manufacture and maintain many other false doctrins to support the sinking-sand foundation of the man made false doctrin. One must twist, contort, misrepresent, missapply, take from, and add to many Scriptures to support such teaching. Every Bible doctrin should be measured by plain facts and by plain principles and true examples of life; not be erroneously interpreting a few texts in total disregard of other scriptures on the same subject. It is vital for one to get God's thought on the subject as a whole as expressed in all Scripture. The Devil has always used Scripture to cloak his teachings, and he can wrest it and twist it until whatever he teaches appeares to be quite scriptural. Just because the theory has a few passages that seem to sustain it is no proof that it is scriptural. Anydoctrin that is opposed to the true principles of life, or to one plain Scripture, rightly divided, is bound to be wrong. Teachers of unconditional security, like teachers of other false doctrins, do away with all Scriptures that are not in harmony with their pet theory. Their usual procedure is to explain all Scriptures that plainly contradict such teachings as referring only to the Jews and not to Christians, or as refering to some past age and not to the one in which we live, and to quickly divert attention from other Scriptures written to Christians as of no importance on the question. On the other hand, Scriptures written to both Jews and gentiles that can be twisted to harmonize with this theory are emphasized beyond all true meaning under the guise of accepting just what the Bible says. WE are told to "rightly divide the word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15). and to compare "spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor. 2:13). When this is done to the very few passages that are used to teach unconditional security they will be found to be inperfect harmony with the many hundreds of passages that plainly teach conditional security. On the other other hand, these many hundreds of passages cannot be possibly harmonized with the wrong interpretations of the few that are used to teach unconditional security. To teach unconditional security is to leave an irreparable breach between two sets of Scriptures, but to teach conditional security is to have perfect harmony between all Scriptures. If all Christians would be willing to believe all Scriptures on the subject and be as zealous to defend all truth then there would be no division over the question of true Bible security. The truth is that the Bible does teach a true, just, and a lasting security for the believers who will put forth an honest effort to remain secure in Christ, if they will meet a few simple conditions of God which are clearly stated and which every man can meet by the means of grace provided in the gospel.