HAZARD

As an adult, I wouldn't worry too much about the sins comitted by a nine year old. What would be the unpardonable sin under New Covenant. Scripture shows it to be the total rejection of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice, and failure to repent of it. But, Is man damned only for the sin of rejecting Christ. Men were originally damned for the first transgression, and if Christ had never come, they would have to pay the same penalty for sin as they will finally pay if they reject Christ. (Gen. 2:17; 3:1-19; Romans 5:12-21). Rejection of Christ, then is not the penalty for eating of the forbidden fruit. The sin of rejecting Christ only seals their doom (John 3:16-18). The word "sins" is used many times as the basis of mans judgment and punishment (Lev. 26:1-46; Isa. 59:2; Jer. 21:14; Hosea 12:2; Amos 3:6; Rev. 2:23; 20:11-15). If men were damned only for rejecting Christ, then this would be the only sin they would ever have to face at the judgment, but this is not true. Men will give account of every idle word and every sin (Matt. 10:41-42; 12:36, 37; 16:27; Rom. 1:29-32; 2 Cor. 11;15; Rev. 20:11-15; 22;12). Christ died to make an end of sins and cleanse from all sin, and not only for the one sin of rejecting Him (Dan. 9:24; Matt. 26:28; 1 Cor. 15:3; Gal. 1;4; Heb. 1;3; 2:17; 9:28; 2 Pet. 2:24; 3:18; 1 John 3:8; Rev. 1;5). In other words, God will forgive all sin upon repentance and acceptance of Christ. The unpardonable sin would be the total rejection of Jesus Christ and the absolute refusal to ever repent of this sin. Haz.

Hi Dave. Sorry, but I disagree. Read these Scriptures again. If they do not state that Judas was once saved, then the Bible is full of errors. Judas had eternal life. He was a saved man. His name was written in the "Book of Life." Judas was a "Familiar Friend" of Christ who ate His bread (Psalm 41:9) "Yea, mine own farmiliar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat my of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me" (Psalms 41:9). Judas was not an enemy of Christ, but an equal in Grace, a guide, and a sweet acpuaintance; (Read these Scriptures for they are the truth, Psalms 55:12-13). His Name was written in the book of life! "For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: But it was thou, a man, my equal, my guide, and my friend" (Psalm 55:12-13). In Matt. 10 we have the facts recorded that Judas as one of the "twelve disciples" recieved power over demons, sickness and diseases and was called to preach the gospel. Of these twelve (Judas included) it is said that Christ gave them power and sent them forth, and commanded them to preach and to heal the sick. Jesus said to Judas and all the twelve, "Freely ye have recieved, freel give. . . and I send you forth as sheep . . . it shall not be ye that speak, but the spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (Matt. 10:1-20). These statements prove that Judas was once chosen and a genuine apostle. He was a true believer, a saved man, divinely empowered and equal in every sense with the others, a called preacher and a destroyer of Satans works. He was untill he sinned an obedient man, a sheep filled with the Spirit, and one who had God as his Father. In Mark 6:7-13 we read that the twelve (Judas included) went "forth two by two . . . and preached that men should repent. And they (Judas included) cast out demons and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them. This proves that Judas was a divinley efficient man, a sucessful preacher and had the power to heal. If Judas was not a saved man, and if he could have done all these miracles as a lost sinner, then it would seem that the modern Christians who claim to be saved regardless of what they do should be able to do as much as Judas did whom they say was never saved. If Judas was not a saved man, and if he could have done all these miracles as a lost sinner, then it would seem that the modern Christians who claim to be saved regardless of what they do should be able to do as much as Judas did whom they say was never saved. It is insulting to Jesus Christ Himself and His Father in Heaven to accuse them of choosing an unsaved man to preach repentance and holiness, to heal the sick, to cast out demons, and the represent the Kingdom of God among men. The only proof some men give to prove Judas was never saved is their OWN BELIEF that Judas was not a saved man at one time because he was FINALLY LOST. JUDAS, BY TRANSGRESSION FELL (Acts 1:15-25) The apostle Peter stated: "Men and bretheren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit by the mouth of David spoke before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus" (Acts 1:16); "For he was numbered with us, AND HAD OBTAINED PART OF THIS MINISTRY" (Acts 1:17). The Words Peter mentioned that David spoke of were (Psalms 41:9 and 55:12-13). The Holy Spirit through Luke records for us that JUDAS "BY TRANSGRESSION FELL" (Acts 1:15-25). Judas not only had a moral fall but "sin" caused it. Judas was not always a "devil" and a "thief." He became both after he had been saved for quite some time. Judas's weakness was the love of money and this caused his fall (John 12:6; Luke 22:5; Matt. 26:14-16). If he had refused to be treasurer of the first Christian disciples and had told them that money was his weakness, he would have been better off. Judas had seen Jesus escape the mob many times and he had no doubt the Lord would escape again and he would be thirty pieces better off. Jesus Christ Himself spoke these words to the Father: Jesus testified that to EVERY ONE [including Judas] the Father had given Him, He had given ETERNAL LIFE (John 17:2). Jesus gave Judas eternal life just as He gave the other apostles eternal life. "While I was with them in the world I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of purdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:12). Jesus said here that he LOST Judas. Jesus could not loose someone He did not have, and someone could not loose eternal life if they never had it to loose. All Judas had to do after betraying Jesus was to repent, just as Peter repented after betraying Jesus three times. Judas never was a devil from the beginning. There is no such statement in the Bible that he was a devil from the beginning. He was a 'devil" or an adversary against Christ toward the latter part of His ministry and this is all the Bible does say about the question (Luke 6:13; John 6:70). Many disciples of Jesus went back into sin and were lost for they followed Him "no more" (Read john 6:66). To argue that these people were not saved does not disprove the plain fact that they were "disciples" and had eternal life up to the time they went back (Hebrews 12:26-39). If they went back, then they had something to go back from. They had something that caused them to follow Jesus in His persucutions. They were like the class in Luke 8:13 who "recieved the word with joy . . . and for a while believed, and in time of temptation fall away." To believe in Jesus for a while bring eternal life and makes one a son of God (John 1;12; 1 John 5:1). Even false security teachers make one act of faith all that man must ever do to be saved eternally. So they, above all should believethat these disciples that believed for a while had eternal life at one time. Now Jesus also called Peter "Satan" but that doesnt make Peter a devil from the beginning. "But He turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" (Matt. 16:23). Peter grabbed hold of Christ and tried to convince Him not to go to the cross. Peter rebuked Christ and Christ knew it was Satan working through Peter, (Matt. 16:22-23). Judas was to have his habitation desolate AND BE BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK OF THE LIVING (Psalsm 69:25-28 with Acts 1:20). "For it is written in the book of psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishopric let another take." He was to have "another take his place" in the Christian ministry and in the kingship over one of the tribes of Israel (Psalms 109:8). These passages were fulfilled in Judas according to Matt. 26:24; John 13;18 and Acts 1:16-25). These statements prove Judas was once chosen by God as a genuin apostle. He was then once a true believer, a saved man, and one divinely empowered for service and equal in every sense tothe others, a called preacher, a destroyer of Satans works, an obedient man, a sheep, a man filled with the Spirit, and one who had God as his "Father." Untill, JUDAS, BY TRANSGRESSION FELL (Acts 1:15-25). He fell by comitting sin, by betraying Jesus just as Peter and others had done. But he never repented. He brooded over his sin and comitted suicide. Judas had a moral fall and sin caused it. The Holy Spirit through Luke records that Judas "BY TRANSGRESSION FELL" (Acts 1:15-25) and if men would be as anxious to believe the Holy Spirit as they are to believe men, and if they would be as anxious to believe all Scriptures as they claim to believe some, they would show some consistency and honesty regarding the Word of God, and what happened to Judas. God is not the author of sin. He did not creat a man destined to be lost forever, a man who was unsaveable regardless of Jesus's sacrifice. God wants all men to come to repentance and salvation. Haz.

Is man damned only for the sin of rejecting Christ. Men were originally damned for the first transgression, and if Christ had never come, they would have to pay the same penalty for sin as they will finally pay if they reject Christ. (Gen. 2:17; 3:1-19; Romans 5:12-21). Rejection of Christ, then is not the penalty for eating of the forbidden fruit. The sin of rejecting Christ only seals their doom (John 3:16-18). The word "sins" is used many times as the basis of mans judgment and punishment (Lev. 26:1-46; Isa. 59:2; Jer. 21:14; Hosea 12:2; Amos 3:6; Rev. 2:23; 20:11-15). If men were damned only for rejecting Christ, then this would be the only sin they would ever have to face at the judgment, but this is not true. Men will give account of every idle word and every sin (Matt. 10:41-42; 12:36, 37; 16:27; Rom. 1:29-32; 2 Cor. 11;15; Rev. 20:11-15; 22;12). Christ died to make an end of sins and cleanse from all sin, and not only for the one sin of rejecting Him (Dan. 9:24; Matt. 26:28; 1 Cor. 15:3; Gal. 1;4; Heb. 1;3; 2:17; 9:28; 2 Pet. 2:24; 3:18; 1 John 3:8; Rev. 1;5). In other words, God will forgive all sin upon repentance and acceptance of Christ. The unpardonable sin would be the total rejection of Jesus Christ and the absolute refusal to ever repent of this sin. Haz.

There were millions of men, women and children, people over the ages who have died, and who are now living in the depths of Asia, Africa, Tibet, India, South America, Australia and China, to name only a few countries, who have never heard of Jesus Christ, God, or ever saw or read a Bible, or met a minister of any Church. If this were not true, these statements by Paul would not have been made. Paul stated in Romans 2;12-16 that God will do right by every man according to the light he has recieved. He said, "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusuing one another;) In the day when God shalljudge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." In other words; "God will deal with every one, including the heathen, who have never heard of the gospel. He will deal with them on the basis of the light they have recieved, and on the basis of obeying their own conscience" (Romans 2;12-16). Haz.

No! I do not believe in once saved, always saved and heres why. Judas is actually a classic example of once saved then lost if I ever saw one. There are many more such examples as Judas in the Scriptures. I have discussed this with several prominant board administrators and board founders and also many ministers, and to my surprise many fail to understand this despite the Scriptures plainly showing that a saved person who returnes to sin is lost unless they repent and return to Christ. Judas had eternal life. He was a saved man. His name was written in the "Book of Life." Judas was a "Familiar Friend" of Christ who ate His bread (Psalm 41:9) Judas was not an enemy of Christ, but an equal in Grace, a guide, and a sweet acpuaintance; (Read these Scriptures for they are the truth, Psalms 55:12-13). In Matt. 10 we have the facts recorded that Judas as one of the "twelve disciples" recieved power over demons, sickness and diseases and was called to preach the gospel. Of these twelve (Judas included) it is said that Christ gave them power and sent them forth, and commanded them to preach and to heal the sick. Jesus said to Judas and all the twelve, "Freely ye have recieved, freel give. . . and I send you forth as sheep . . . it shall not be ye that speak, but the spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (Matt. 10:1-20). These statements prove that Judas was once chosen and a genuine apostle. He was a true believer, a saved man, divinely empowered and equal in every sense with the others, a called preacher and a destroyer of Satans works. He was untill he sinned an obedient man, a sheep filled with the Spirit, and one who had God as his Father. In Mark 6:7-13 we read that the twelve (Judas included) went "forth two by two . . . and preached that men should repent. And they (Judas included) cast out demons and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them. This proves that Judas was a divinley efficient man, a sucessful preacher and had the power to heal. If Judas was not a saved man, and if he could have done all these miracles as a lost sinner, then it would seem that the modern Christians who claim to be saved regardless of what they do should be able to do as much as Judas did whom they say was never saved. It is insulting to Jesus Christ Himself and His Father in Heaven to accuse them of choosing an unsaved man to preach repentance and holiness, to heal the sick, to cast out demons, and the represent the Kingdom of God among men. The only proof some men give to prove Judas was never saved is their OWN BELIEF that Judas was not a saved man at one time because he was FINALLY LOST. Some cite John 6:64-70, but this passage does not say that Judas had at all times been a devil and unsaved. Jesus, in this Scripture was speaking of "some" of His disciples that believed not, and who should betray Him. The first part of this passage refers to the "some" that did not believe and does not include Judas. For after they had left Jesus JUDAS WAS STILL WITH THE TWELVE! whom Jesus asked, "Will ye also go away"???? See how easy it is to come to unsubstanciated conclusions!!! We must search the Scriptures like a bloodhound on the scent trail. Only the last part of this statement refers to Judas. Jesus knew who wdid not believe and He also knew who would betray Him. He did not say that Judas did not believe, nor that he was a devil from the beginning and therefore not a saved man. The Holy Spirit through Luke records for us that JUDAS "BY TRANSGRESSION FELL" (Acts 1:15-25). Judas not only had a moral fall but "sin" caused it. Judas was not always a "devil" and a "thief." He became both after he had been saved for quite some time. Judas's weakness was the love of money and this caused his fall (John 12:6; Luke 22:5; Matt. 26:14-16). If he had refused to be treasurer of the first Christian disciples and had told them that money was his weakness, he would have been better off. Judas had seen Jesus escape the mob many times and he had no doubt the Lord would escape again and he would be thirty pieces better off. It was not until the end of Christs ministry that Judas began to pilfer and to grow cold in his love of Christ. And it was not untill the last supper that the devil entered into his mind and became united in the same crime. Two days before the passover the devil put it into the heart of Judas to go top Christs enemies and betray Him. (Matt. 26:1-5, 14-16; John 13:2). It was at this time he openly broke away from christ AND SAUGHT THE OPPORTUNITY TO BETRAY HIM. Judas was sorry for his betrayal (Matt. 27:3-5), and he could have been forgiven as Peter was when he cursed God and denied Christ and fled like a coward at his test. But being of the disposition to do so Judas brooded over his sin and eventually yielded to satan to commit suicide. Judas then is a specific example of a New Testament man who was once saved and in God's favour and grace, but who lost this favour and went to Hell because of sin (Matt. 25:24 Acts 1:16-25). Its this simple to understand. One cannot loose something we do not have! Jesus testified that to EVERY ONE [including Judas] the Father had given Him, He had given ETERNAL LIFE (John 17:2). To deny Judas was once a saved man who lost his salvation is to deny Scripture and also deny Jesus Christs own statemens regarding Judas. Jesus also acknowledged to the Father that of those whom the Father had given Him Judas was the only one whom HE HAD LOST. Jesus Christ could not have LOST JUDAS HAD JUDAS NOT BEEN SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE.! Judas had eternal life as much as the other apostles including Peter wo also denied Christ but he bacame "lost" and "by transgression fell" (Acts 1:25). Not only were saved individuals warned to repent if they returned to sin, but entire churches were commanded by Jesus to repent or be lost. Many in the seven churches in Rev. 2-3 who WERE FALLEN from grace were repuired to repent and do their first works or else cut off in sin and be lost. Jesus was not a teacher of once in grace, or unconditional security always in grace and secure. He kept rebuking, warning, and commanding Christians to meet certain conditions if they were to be saved. The Church at Ephesus, once in God's favour and grace at one time or it could not have fallen as indicated by Jesus Christ saying to it, I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. "Remember therefore FROM WHENCE THOU ART FALLEN, [there it is, the entire church had fallen from grace], AND REPENT, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and I will remove thy candlestick out of its place, [and again Jesus warns] except thou repent" (Rev. 2:4-5). One losing his first love loses God, as is clear from 1 John 4:7-8 which shows that if one does not have love he does not have God. Anyone who does not have God or love, does not have grace. Having fallen from all of this, the church at Ephesus was ORDERED TO REPENT and do its first works, or have their candlestick removed, which means THE WHOLE CHURCH would be removed, for the candlestick represents the church (Rev. 1:20). The church, completly destroyed for centuries, apparently did not return and do the first works again. As is the casewith any backslider, the latter end is worse that the beginning (Luke 11:24-26; 2 Peter 2:20-22). Christ demanded other churches to "repent" of idolatry, of comitting fornication, and adultery (Rev. 2:14-15, 19-24; 3:19), and He urged them to be on fire for God again, or be spewed out of "my mouth" (Rev. 3:15-16). These and many other Scriptural, New Testament examples which have been given, and many more which can be shown plainly state that eternal life can be lost. "And the times of this ignorance God WINKED AT; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent. (Acts 17:27-30). God does turn a blind eye to genuine mistakes. But if one deliberately backslides, and does not repent, as clearly shown by Scripture, one is lost, until one comes again to repentance. Haz.

There were millions of men, women and children, people over the ages who have died, and who are now living in the depths of Asia, Africa, Tibet, India, South America, Australia and China, to name a few who have never heard of Jesus Christ, God, or ever saw or read a Bible, or met a minister of any Church. If this were not true, these statements by Paul would not have been made. Paul stated in Romans 2;12-16 that God will do right by every man according to the light he has recieved. He said, "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusuing one another;) In the day when God shalljudge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." Haz.

Hi. Yes! God does have a basis of dealing with people who have never heard of Him or the gospel. Millions of people throughout history, who have died and those living today and in the future, who live in inacessible parts of the world who will die never having heard about God will be judged according to their conscience. God wants that all men are saved and He will deal with them on the basis of the light thay have recieved, and of the basis of obeying their own conscience (Read Romans 2:12-16). Haz.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Ann. Several denominations teach that there is no remission of sins possible without water-baptism. Any church that teaches that one must be a member of their church for any amount of time before baptism perverts the Word of God. Such a theory takes salvation out of the hands of Christ and places it in the hands of other mediators between God and man, the administrators of baptism. This makes the work of Christ of no avail until some man performs the baptism ceremony. In other words, the work of Christ cannot save the soul until a man baptizes the penitent. This would make man then the final saviour and gives man the last say as to who will be saved. If man for some reason refuses to baptize any person then that person would be eternally lost regardless of the Word of Christ. But this theory is not true. When the penitent sinner is ready to recieve Christ no man, no power in the universe can prevent his forgivness and salvation for one moment, with or without baptism.

________________________________________________________________________ Dear Leonard, You are, as usual, way off base. In Matthew 22:29, Jesus is answering the Sadducees question regarding marrying more than one woman., and has nothing at all to do with baptism, or even infant baptism. "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. Your personall addition to this Scripture; "Ye do therefore greatly err." does not exist. You have added to the Word. Maybe it is you who should "Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39). And quoting Leonard again, . This Scripture has nothing to do with infant baptism either. It speaks of Israel passing through the Red Sea, under the Cloud, which was a sign that God was with them. The passing trough the Red sea was a "Type" of baptism. Paul here was speaking of "All our fathers," being baptized "Under Moses." Paul wrote in 1 Corinthinas 10:1-2, "Moreover, bretheren, I would not that ye be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Mozes in the cloud and in the sea;" All our fathers, who were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, being baptized under Moses, in the Old Testament, has nothing to do with infant baptism, and especially nothing to do with adults who have reached the age of reason and personally choosing to be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, since Jesus's death and resurrection in the New Testament gospel. Here's a couple for you to think on O Great Quoter of Scripture's of no revelence to the subject being debated. The devil steals the Word of God from some people lest they should believe it (Matt. 13:19; Luke 8:12). He also causes diversions and blinds men to the gospel (2 Cor. 4:4). Hazard, dear fellow: Please don't lecture me about 'context.' You're just not that good yet. First of all, the words of Jesus to the Saducees which I quoted, ALMOST matches the context you state. You made just one minor error there: The context is not 'marrying more than one woman' as you state, but the (probably hypothetical) case of a woman marrying multiple men. And of course, the REAL context lies in the dispute over the resurrection of the dead, and the greater context of the Jerusalem authorities' growing resistance to His Ministry. But His words here are certainly not directly related to just that context. Indeed, they are related more broadly to the simple context of a response to anyone who seems to be missing out on some important point in the Scripture. I used the words of Jesus as a simple directive to such persons, and as an introduction to next thought, which was simply: 'Search the Scriptures.' As for the objection that the phrase 'Ye do therefore greatly err' was me 'adding to' the Word, I direct your attention to the 2nd Synoptic Gospel; that of Mark. As the pericope appears in the 12th chapter of the Marcan Gospel, the longer quote of Jesus is given. And the phrase does indeed occur at verse 27. You see, I do 'search the Scriptures', and my exhortation to others to also form this most salubrious habit of life, still stands. It would seem that we have come to a point of very strong agreement here at least: We BOTH firmly believe in seaching the life-giving Word. It appears I was not 'off base' at all, simply better grounded in the Scriptures than are those who think I'm the devil incarnate! How can you possibly claim I Corinthians 10:1-2 has 'nothing' to do with infant baptism? Paul uses the very word 'baptism' and says they were 'all' baptized. So it is clear that the Hebrew infants among them were part of the 'all', unless you believe there was not a single baby among all the people; and I think that would be quite an extraoradinary thing to believe. Indeed the literary pericope begins in chapter 9, about verse 23 if I recall, where Paul talks about how he strives as in a race, lest he himself should end up a 'castaway.' The pericope from 9:23 to at least 10:12, is a powerful warning to Christians themselves, against various forms of sinning. If in the context of speaking directly to baptized Christians, Paul uses the VERY WORD 'baptized', and applies it to the Jews 'saved' out of Egypt (this is clearly his intent and meaning), then unless Paul is telling the Corinthian Christians the TRUTH, he is presenting a lie! He tells the Corinthians, "Look, these people were 'saved.' They were 'baptized.' and yet, due to their obstinacy in sin, they were lost!" Now unless that 'baptism' of Israel, was something QUITE REAL, then Paul was just putting a bondage of fear on people. So you tell me: Was Paul lying? Friend; you are more than welcome to discuss with me the meaning of the Scriptures. You are more than welcome to disagree with me, and show me why you disagree. But I must object a wee bit here on two accounts, to wit: First you accuse me of 'adding to the Word...' And above I clearly demonstrated I did not; you just seemed to be unaware that there are four (4) Gospels. Secondly, you exhort me to 'consider' this: "The devil steals the Word of God from some people lest they should believe it (Matt. 13:19; Luke 8:12). He also causes diversions and blinds men to the gospel (2 Cor. 4:4)." I have 'considered' it. Since I fully quoted the word of God in Mark 12, and you tried to 'steal the Word of God from some people' by pretending Mark 12:27 didn't exist, MAYBE THAT SHOE BELONGS ON YOUR OWN FOOT! I don't actually believe this of you, of course, but I encourage you to have a care when you are tempted to toss accusations about. Again: You're just not that good yet. I know it was painful, but your Remedial Bible Lesson for the evening is over now. Lick your wounds, remembering all the while that 'Faithful are the wounds of a friend' and when you are sufficiently humbled and gracious, I will teach you further, 'grasshopper'. ___________________________________________________________________________ Dear Leonard. This is what I meant; "Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God....." Is quoting Matt. 22:29. "Ye do therefore greatly err," is quoting Mark 12:27. Since when does one mix two Scriptures which cover two entirely different topics? I merley pointed out that the Scripture, "Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God," and, "Ye do therfore greatly err" is not one scripture, and it as one scripture, does not exist. Therefore it cannot be used as one scripture to make any point regarding any doctrin. I admit I truly am "not just that good yet," nor ever will be, and I also gladly admit I am no where near as good as you in citing Scripture? I humbly admit you are very wise and I am impressed with your great knowledge of the Scriptures. With your understanding and knowledge of the Scriptires you would therefore know just how impressed Jesus was with the wise, and what Jesus said about the wise and prudent. Jesus said this of the wise and prudent in Matt. 13:10-17. "This peoples heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them" (Matt. 13:10-17). I read these scriptures some time ago and I am sure you know them as well; "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things." "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment" (Matt. 12:35-36). My Bible knowledge is limited and I am learning every day. I believe that infant baptism is not taught in Scripture. I cannot find one word that mentions any such practice. On the contrary, it is clear from Scripture that baptism is only after men have repented and have been born again by the Spirit of God. Infants are not lost due to the fact that they are not old enough to be responsible for sin and therefore could not repent of known sins. They therefore cannot be fit candidates for water baptism which is a symbol of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and a testimony to the world that the individual has been saved from a life of sin and that he is walking in newness of life. Only personal disciples and followers of Jesus Christ were commanded to be baptized (Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38-39). Quote Leonard: and . I admit I can be just as big a smart-a.r.s. as the next, but I do try not to lord over anyone by coming straight out and telling them I am simply better grounded in the Scriptures than they are, and that they are not yet as wise as I think I am. You see, the trouble with putting both feet in your mouth is, you then don't have a leg to stand on. Infant baptism is not Scriptural. ___________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________ Dear Leonard, You are, as usual, way off base. In Matthew 22:29, Jesus is answering the Sadducees question regarding marrying more than one woman., and has nothing at all to do with baptism, or even infant baptism. "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. Your personall addition to this Scripture; "Ye do therefore greatly err." does not exist. You have added to the Word. Maybe it is you who should "Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39). And quoting Leonard again, . This Scripture has nothing to do with infant baptism either. It speaks of Israel passing through the Red Sea, under the Cloud, which was a sign that God was with them. The passing trough the Red sea was a "Type" of baptism. Paul here was speaking of "All our fathers," being baptized "Under Moses." Paul wrote in 1 Corinthinas 10:1-2, "Moreover, bretheren, I would not that ye be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Mozes in the cloud and in the sea;" All our fathers, who were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, being baptized under Moses, in the Old Testament, has nothing to do with infant baptism, and especially nothing to do with adults who have reached the age of reason and personally choosing to be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, since Jesus's death and resurrection in the New Testament gospel. Here's a couple for you to think on O Great Quoter of Scripture's of no revelence to the subject being debated. The devil steals the Word of God from some people lest they should believe it (Matt. 13:19; Luke 8:12). He also causes diversions and blinds men to the gospel (2 Cor. 4:4).

well - you'd better get acuainted with the scriptures and re-read my post. there is scripture there. --- so you're going to abide by that law in genesis... do you eat pork? do you stone people when they disobey the law? do you sacrifice? etc. --- the laws that have changed. do you know what laws have been changed? the sacrificial laws. under the priesthood. that is what has changed. you have eisegeted that scripture and made it out to say that the law has been done away with. you need to read the whole book of hebrews to understand what is meant. even just the chapter for that matter. to beable to exegete the scripture. --- what hasn't changed is the moral laws. which Jesus talked extensively about. not as much as some other topics. but still. --- you focus on that law in genesis. yet you dont take into account any other scripture. you eisegete it. __________________________________________________________________________ God commanded man to remove murderes from society when God instituted human government by law after Noah's flood, He gave Noah certain laws by which to govern the human race, and man was then held responsible for self-government ever since. (Read Gen. 9:1-7). Do the words "Perpetual Generations" mean anything? (5) "WHOSOEVER SHEDDETH MAN'S BLOOD, BY MAN SHALL HIS BLOOD BY SHED: for in the image of God made he him" (Gen. 9:5-6). (6) "I have established my covenant with you . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . FOR PERPETUAL GENERATIONS . . . the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the "EVERLASTING COVENANT" between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth" (Gen. 9:8-17).

first and foremost - Christ did not come to do away with the law. that is unscriptural. and heretical. yes they were fulfilled. what does that mean - fulfilled? well... when a glass if half full - and you want to fill it up - do you first empty the glass of fresh water and then fill it up with more fresh water? no. the law is our school master to bring us to Christ. think of it like this: during school - you have rules. when you graduate - you thank your school master for helping you through your school years - do you then take out your glock and shoot your school master in the head? no. you thank him and you keep memories of him. im speaking of the moral laws - because Jesus spoke on the moral laws. the ten commandments. Paul said that he had not known sin but by the law. so without the law - it seems as though there is no sin - yet the person who knows not the law is living ignorantly in sin. --- all over the NT there is the moral law. sermon on the mount - Jesus didnt change the ten commandments - he shone a new light on old law expanding them. in Acts, the epistles, revelations etc. if you can find a place that says we dont have to follow the moral laws then i'll give you a $1,000.00 money order. (i dont use paypal yet) but i dont have to worry - because you wont find such a scripture reference. --- "Thou shalt not murder" ever heard of that? by your post i dont think you have. if someone has done something so terrible that according to man's standards he needs the death penalty - then fellow man is not to take his life. it is in God's hands. God has given that person life - and God can take it away. "Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge His people." so it is not for man to take man's life. for we can only kill the body. God can kill the body and the soul. --- the moral law has not been done away with. God bless. _________________________________________________________________________ . =========================================================== Who need's your money? I am not enticed by your money or you statements which are not backed by "ONE SCRIPTURE?". You do not provide one Scripture to back up what you say. Read this again, if you have read it at all. The Old Testament law's have been done away with when they were fulfilled in Christ and after they had served their purpose. "I am come to fulfill the law . . . one jot or tittle shall no wise pass from the law, till all be fuliflled" (Matt. 5:17-18). "The law prophesied untill John" (Luke 16:16). "All things must be fulfilled which was spoken in the law of Moses" (Luke 24:44). "For the priesthood being changed, there is made necessity a change also of the law" (Heb. 7:12). Read the last Scripture provided (Hebrews 7:12). THE LAW HAS BEEN CHANGED! Work it out if you can. Use your God given mind without bias. . Read this again (Gen. 9:5-6), if you ever did read this in the first place or you would not be making the statements you are making. (5) "WHOSOEVER SHEDDETH MAN'S BLOOD, BY MAN SHALL HIS BLOOD BY SHED: for in the image of God made he him" (Gen. 9:5-6). What don't you understand about this Scripture? And: Some argue the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" (Deut 5:17), prevents government from administering capital punishment. The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" means exactly what it says, that men shall not kill any other human being; BUT, if a man sheds another mans blood, in other words, if a man ignores Deut 5:17, and commits murder, then the everlasting covenant law, "whosoever sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed," comes into being. Scriptures do not lie, men do.

________________________________________________________________________ All the theories of men aside, and just one reading of all the Scriptures in the following thirty points with an open mind and heart, and it all becomes easy to understand. God does not want us to be confused or hide anything from us regarding His entire plan for mankind. [1]. God in the eternal past (Ps.90:2; 93:2; Mic. 5:2; Heb. 9:14). [2]. The drafting of God's plan (Heb. 1:3; 11:3; Eph. 3:11; 1 Pet. 1:20). [3]. Creation of the heavens, including the sun, moon, and innunerable stars in the entire universe (Gen.1:1; Col. 1:15-18; Ps. 8:3; 90:2; 95:5; 102:25; Isa. 40:12, 26; 45:12; 48:13). [4]. Creation of the spirit world (Job. 38:4-7; Col. 1;15-18). [5].Creation of the Earth. The Earth is created perfect the first time (Gen. 1:1; Job. 38:4-7; Isa. 45:18; Heb. 11:3). [6].Creation of "the world [kosmos, social order] that then was" (2 Pet. 3:5-9; Isa. 14:12-14; 45:18; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17). [7]. Lucifers reign over "the world that then was" (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17; Col. 1:15-18). The length of his rule is unknown. [8]. Other thrones, dominions, principalities and powers placed over other parts of the universe (Col. 1;15-18; Eph. 1:21; 3:10; 1 Pet. 3:22). [9]. The Kingdom of God universal; God the supreme Moral Governor of the universe, and all in harmoney with Him (Job 38; Dan. 4:17, 25, 32, 35). The length of the rule of the universal harmonious kingdom before Lucifer started his rebellion is unknown. [10]. Lucifer, the origional ruler of the planet Earth, concieves the idea that he can get the co-operation of other angelic beings of the universe, dethrone God, and become the exaulted supreme ruler of the universe (Isa. 14:12-14; Ezek. 28:11-17; 1 Tim. 3:6). [11]. Lucifer carries out his plans, and through pride falls and forments rebellion by slander and accusations against the Almighty. He causes his own earth-kingdom subjects and over one third of God's angels (Rev. 12:7-12) to rebell against Him. The Earth enters its first sinful career (Isa. 14:12-14; Ezek. 28:11-17; 1 Tim. 3:6). The length of the uprising is unknown. [12]. Lucifer instigates rebellion and persuades everyone possible to rebell. He openly breaks relations with God and His government, and leads his rebells from the appointed place of mobilization on Earth into Heaven to dethrone God; but he is met by Michael and the faithful angels, and is defeated and cast as lightning back to the Earth (Isa. 14:12-14; Ezek. 28:11-17; Luke 10:18). [13]. God completely destroys Lucifers kingdom on Earth, and curses the Earth by destroying every bird, animal, fish, city, inhabitant, and all vegetation. He then turns the Earth upside down and by means of a great flood makes it empty and a waste (Gen. 1:2; Ps. 104:5-9; Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17; 2 Pet. 3:5-9). The length of the pre-Adamite flood on the Earth is unknown. [14]. The Spirit of God begins to move upon the flooded Earth and in the darkness which covered the waters to restore the Earth to a habitale state, and to creat new land animals, fish, fowls, vegetation, and Adam as the new ruler of the Earth (Gen. 1:2; Ps. 104:6-9). Length of re-creation is six days (Gen. 1:3-2:25; Ex. 20:8-11; 31:15). [15]. The earth is made perfect a second time and all things in the universe are again in harmony with God as before Lucifers rebellion; except Lucifer and his spirit rebels are still at large in the heavenlies to further God's plan in the probationary periods of the human race should man fall (Gen. 1:3:25; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Job. 1:6; 2:1; Rev. 12:7-12). [16]. THE FIRST PROBATIONARY PERIOD. The Dispensation of Innocence. The length of this period was about six days (Gen. 2:17-3:24). [17]. Lucifer (now the devil or adversary of God and man called Satan) enters the restored Earth, tempts man and causes his fall, thus regaining dominion of the Earth and all things therein (Gen. 3; Luke 4; John 12:31; 2 Cor. 4:4; Rev. 11:15; 20:1-10). [18]. Rebellion starts again on the Earth by the second ruler of Earth. Man is judged, the Earth is again cursed and enters its second sinful career, and all creatures are brought under bondage of sin and corruption (Gen. 3; Rom. 5:12-21; 8:19-23). [19]. "The heavens and the earth which are now" since the restoration work of the six days, and since the new curse on the Earth await the time of the second renovation, and the third perfect state of the Earth, called the New Heavens and the New Earth (2 Pet. 3:5-13; Rom. 8:19-23; Heb. 1:10-12; 12:24-28; Rev. 21-22). [20].THE SECOND PROBATIONARY PERIOD. The Dispensation of Conscience (Gen. 3:1-8:14). The length of this period was 1,656 years (Gen. 5:1-29; 7:11). [21]. THE THIRD PROBATIONARY PERIOD. The Dispensation of Human Government (Gen. 8:15-11:9). The length of this period was 427 years (Gen. 11:10-12:9). [22]. THE FOURTH PROBATIONARY PERIOD. The Dispensation of Promise (Gen. 11;10-Ex. 12:51). The length of this period was 430 years (Ex. 12:40; Gal. 4:30). [23]. THE FIFTH PROBATIONARY PERIOD. The Dispensation of Law (Ex. 13:1-Matt. 4:1; 11:11; Luke 16:16). The length of this period was over 1,718 years from Moses to Christ. [24]. THE SIXTH PROBATIONARY PERIOD. The Dispensation of Grace (John 1:17; Matt. 4:1-Rev. 19:21). The length of this period will be from the first advent to the second advent of Christ, and the binding of Satan in the abyss at the end of this age. It has already lasted over 2,000 years. [25]. THE SEVENTH PROBATIONARY PERIOD. The Dispensation of Divine Government or Millennium (Rev. 20:1-10). The length of this period will be 1,000 years (Rev. 20:1-10). [26]. At the end of the Millennium Satan will be loosed from the abyss to deceive the nations on Earth; then will cme the last rebellion on the Earth, and the destruction of all human rebells (Rev. 20:7-10). [27]. The second resurrection and final judgment at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:11-15). [28]. The end of the Earth's second sinful career by the renovation of the immediate heavens and the the Earth and the removal of all the curse and its effects (2 Pet. 3:10-13; Rom. 8:19-23; Heb. 1;10-12; 12:24-28). [29]. The confinement of all spirit and human rebells of all ages in the lake of fire forever (Matt. 25:41, 46; Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10-15; Isa. 66:22-24). [30]. The New Heavens and the New Earth-----the eternal perfect state with God all-in-all again, as before rebellion started in the universe with Lucifer and Adam (1 Cor. 15:24-28). The earth will be made perfect again the third time (Isa. 65:17; 66:22-24; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21-22). Any Christian with a lion-like courage against the teachings of men must accept what the Scriptures say regarding God's plan for men, and they will be able to defeat all sickness, poverty, discouragement, failure, and every other thing that causes defeat in the Christian life.

The Old Testament law's have been done away with when they were fulfilled in Christ and after they had served their purpose. "I am come to fulfill the law . . . one jot or tittle shall no wise pass from the law, till all be fuliflled" (Matt. 5:17-18). "The law prophesied untill John" (Luke 16:16). "All things must be fulfilled which was spoken in the law of Moses" (Luke 24:44). "For the priesthood being changed, there is made necessity a change also of the law" (Heb. 7:12). What about the death penalty for murder? Has this law been done away with, or was it instituted by God for "Perpetual generations," as an "Everlasting Covenant?" Many followers of Jesus Christ ask themselves, Is the Death penalty lawful in this age? Do men have the right to change some Law's of God? And, Does God condone the Death Penalty. If we are believers in the Bible, then we must believe that God instituted the death penalty. Here's why. When God instituted human government by law after Noah's flood, He gave Noah certain laws by which to govern the human race, and man was then held responsible for self-government (Read Gen. 9:1-7). There are six very important laws which God gave Noah and his decendants. These Laws were: (1) "Be fruitful and multply, and replenish the earth" (Gen. 9:1, 7). (2) "Into thine hand are they [animals] delivered" (Gen. 9:2). (3) "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have i given you all things" (Gen. 9:4). (4) "The blood thereof shall ye not eat" (Gen. 9:4). (5) "WHOSOEVER SHEDDETH MAN'S BLOOD, BY MAN SHALL HIS BLOOD BY SHED: for in the image of God made he him" (Gen. 9:5-6). And last but not least; (6) "I have established my covenant with you . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . FOR PERPETUAL GENERATIONS . . . the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the "EVERLASTING COVENANT" between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth" (Gen. 9:8-17). These few laws have been the basis of all laws of God and man in every age since the flood of Noah. It was at this time God constituted capital punishment, and God has never revoked this particular law, "Whosoever sheddeth man's blood, BY MAN shall HIS BLOOD BE SHED (Gen. 9:5-6)." This law will continue as an eternal law, and as is revealed in (Isiah 11:4-9; 65:20-25) it will be in force even during the Millennium. That this law will be in force during the Millennium is plainly reaffirmed in (Rom. 13:1-6), in which the apostle Paul taught that even in this age of grace, law-enforcement officers are ordained of God, and that they are His ministers to bear "not the sword in vain" but that they are supposed to "execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." It is totally necessary for human governments to punish criminals according to the crimes committed. Human governments are part of the moral government of God. That God has instituted human governments to help Him secure this end is not only clear in Gen. 9 and Rom. 13, but also in many other passages (Dan. 2:21; 4:17-25; 5:21; 1 Pet. 2:13-14). All administrators of human government, when they rule contrary to the law of God will be punished in due time by God for mismanagement of their authority. God never sanctions selfish and wicked administration of authority, and if such continues long it will be overthrown. Men are under obligation to obey human government when, and as long as the requirements are not inconsistent with the moral law's of God. Christians must always obey "every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the King, as supreem; or unto govenors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evil doers, and for the praise of them that do well. For such is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men" (1 Pet. 2:13-17). Many Christians argue that it is sinful to partake in politics, that it is contrary to the Bible because human government is maintained by force, and that force is contrary with the spirit of the gospel. These are false theories. Human government was instituted by God as shown above, and Christians are commanded in the New Testament to pay taxes and otherwise support government (Read Rom. 13:1-7; 1 Pet. 2:13-17). Some argue the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" (Deut 5:17), prevents government from administering capital punishment. The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" means exactly what it says, that men shall not kill any other human being; but, if a man sheds another mans blood, in other words, if a man ignores Deut 5:17, and commits murder, then the everlasting covenant law, "whosoever sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed," comes into being. This same principle applies to mobs, insurrections, rebellions, and all wars that endanger the best good of being and of the universe. It is the right of government and all of its subjects, to use every possible means to suppress all rebellion and wars, which are merely crime turned loose on a massive scale. That war is necessary under certain circumstances is clear from the fact that moral law permits it and God has commanded it. Earthly governments are God's ministers to execute law upon the ungodly and to preserve moral law and government for the good of all, and they are under obligation to make war, if this is the only way to preserve the best public good for all. We know that elfish and unjust war is wholesale murder and the administrators of such wars will be punished by God in due time. God, in replenishing the human race after the flood of Noah instituted human government and capital punishment for serious crime involving murder. He has never changed this "everlasting covenant" and so, this is still God's will for men and human governments.

I have read many times over the years questions from people; "How can God allow innocent children burn in Hell because they were not for many and varied reasons, baptized?" God does not send any innocent children or even adults to hell because they are not batized. There is not one word in the entire Bible that mentions Infant baptism or any such practice. It is very clear from Scripture that baptism is only required after men have repented of their sins and have been born of the Spirit of God. There is no express command for infants to be baptized untill they become responsible agents and turn to God and have their sins, as adults, remitted. Salvation is a personal experience and children must become old enough to accept salvation before they are commanded to be baptized. Children, untill they become responsible, even though their parents are unsaved, will be taken to Heaven if they die before accountability just as much as those of saved parents. Read Matthew 18:1-10; 19:14). Scripture demands faith and repentance as being necessary before baptism and this no child can do untill he is old enough to understand sin and what to do to be saved. Infant baptism became prominent when churches began teaching baptism and other sacraments to save the soul and remit sin. Such practice makes it impossible to obey Christs command later without admitting infant-baptism was of no benifit. Since there are so many Scriptural reasons why infant-baptism should not be practiced and since it has no efficay it would be best to wait untill the child turns to God by faith and repents of sins of their own free will before it becomes baptised. Baptism is a symbol of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and it is a testimony to all the world that the individual has been saved from a life of sin and that the individual is now walking in newness of life. It is only people who are followers of Jesus that are commanded to be baptized. (Read Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; and Acts 2:38-39). The repentant thief on the cross at Jesus crucifiction was never baptized yet Jesus told him that "To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). So the truth is Baptism alone is actually not necessary for salvation. The purpose of baptism is not to save the soul, sanctify one, or make us children of God, Jesus did that through His death and resurrection. The sole purpose of baptism is plainly taught as being figurative and not litterally a clensing from sin. The palsied man of Matt. 9:1-7 was saved without water baptism: "Jesus seeing their faith [not their water baptism] said . . . thy sins be forgiven thee . . . the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins." Jesus did not baptize one person in all His ministry but He did remit sins of many people (John 4:2). This is sufficient proof that sins can be remitted without water baptism. There are many cases of remission of sins and healing which were done by faith without water baptism (Matt. 9:22; Mark 5:34; 10:52; Luke 7:48' 17:19; 18:42; Acts 3:16). An unnamed woman sinner was forgiven her sins before and without water baptism. Jesus said, "Her sins, which are many are forgiven . . . thy sins be forgiven . . . thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace (Luke 7:36-50). If Jesus allowed adults forgiveness and entry to heaven without baptizm, then why would He expect Children to be baptized to guarantee entry to heaven? Many more scriptures fill the Bible showing adults being saved without water baptism. What about people who have never ever heard of Jesus, or the gosple? Are these many billons of people doomed to Hell? No way at all. Scripture shows that God does have a basis of dealing with people, even heathens, who have never heard of the Gospel. God will deal with them on the basis of the light they have recieved, and on the basis of obeying their own conscience. Read Romans 2:12-16.

____________________________________________________________________________ Hi Leonard. Yes, you and I as free moral agents can believe as we understand Scripture on doctrinal issues. With respect, may I ask a question of you? If as you believe; , and; , Where is Jesus? For as Matthew 24:29 states "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matt. 24:29-30). "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they sahll gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:31). I don't recall hearing or reading anywhere throughout history of any great sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven. Nor seeing the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with great power? Surely this great even would have been recorded by someone somewhere on the Earth since the tribulation? And if angels, with a great sound of a trumpet, were to arrive on the Earth and gather together God's elect, wouldn't this also be historicly recorded somewhere? And why isn't Christs kingdom being set up? His Kingdom is supposed to be set up after the future tribulation, for Christ does not come to the Earth with the saints till then (Matt. 24:15-31; Zech. 14:1-21; Dan. 12:1-13; Rev. 19:11-21) And after Israel is gathered back from all countries (Ezek. 20:33-36; 36:17-38; 37:1-28; Hosea 3:4-5; Dan. 9:27). How is it that Jews still being persecuted today? The Jews are supposed to be delivered from the armies of the nations and become a blessing to all the families of the Earth (Gen. 12:1-3; Ps. 2:6-8; Isa. 9:6-7; 25:6-9; Zech. 9:9-11; 14:1-21; Acts 15:13-18; Luke 1:32-35)?

Dear Leonard. The only Scripture I can find where the actual words "The Tribulation" is mentioned is in (Matt. 24:29), where it states; "Immediately after the tribulation" etc. This does show that a tribulationhas occured because it mentions the time after it had occured. I, according to these Scriptures which I will show, proves a tribulation will occure and we can understand the character of the tribulation as being God's wrath pouring out upon mankind for their wickedness and corruption which shall exceed the days of Noah and Lot (Gen. 6; Matt. 24:37-39; Luke 17:22-37; 2 Tim. 3:1-12). Men will reject the truth until God turnes them over to the "strong delusion" of the Antichrist who will cause them to believe a lie and be damned (2 Thess. 2:8-12; 2 Pet. 3:1-9). Even after God pours out His judgments upon men, they will still defy Him (Rev. 9:20, 21; 6:2-11; 17:1-18; 18:1-24). Mere words cannot describe the utter rebllion and wickedness of men during this period of final struggle between God and the devil over the posession of the Earth (Rev. 11:15; 12:7-12; 19:11-21; 20:1-3). When we speak of the tribulation we mean the troubles that God's people will have to undergo, especially the Jewish people, as Daniels Seventieth Week concerns only Israel and their city Jerusalem. The last half of the Week will be "the time of Jacob's trouble" and these troubles primarily concern Israel. There are several purposes given in Scripture for the tribulation and these are; To purify Israel and bring them back to a place where God can fulfill the everlasting covenants made with their fathers (Isa. 2:6; 3:26; 16:1-5; 24:1-25; 26:20, 21; Ezek. 20:33, 34; 22:17-22; Rom. 11:25-29). To purify Israel of all rebels (Ezek. 20:33, 34; 22:17-22; Zech. 13:8, 9; Mal. 3:3, 4). To plead with and bring Israel into the bond of the New Covenant (Ezek. 20:33, 34; 36:24-28; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10-13:9; Mal. 4:3, 4). To judge Israel and punish them for their rejection of the Messiah and make them willing to accept Him when He comes the second time (Ezek. 20:33, 34; Zech. 12:10-13:9; 14:1-15; Matt. 24:15-31). To judge the nations for their persecution of Israel (Isa.63:1-5; Joel 3; Rev. 6:1-19:21). To bring Israel to complete repentance (Zech 12:10-13:9; Rom. 11;26-29; Matt. 23:39). To fulfill the prophecies of Dan. 9:24-27; Rev. 6:1-19:21; Matt. 24:15, 29; etc. To cause Israel to flee into the wilderness of Edom and Moab and to be persecuted by the nations that Israel will have to turn to God for help (Isa. 16:1-5; Ezek. 20:33-35; Dan. 11:40-12:7; Hos. 2:14-17; Matt. 24:15-31; Rev. 12). The tribulation will begin to affect Israel before the Seventieth Week begins. How long is not certain, but when theAntichrist rises in the beginning of the Week, Israel will be undergowing persecution by the whore and the ten kings of Revived Rome who are dominated by the whor until the middle of the Week. The tribulation is divided into two parts, the first being less severe than the second. The first division of the tribulation takes in the first three and one half years of the Seventieth Week and is termed "the lesser tribulation" for it is not as great in severity as the last three and one half years, because of the protection of Israel by the Antichrist during that time. Israel's persecution then will be from a sourse entirely different from that of the last division. This first division of the tribulation takes in the fulfilment of Rev. 6:1-9:21. The judgment of the sixth seal and first six trumpets comes in thisperiod, proving tribulation during this time. The last three and one half years of the Week is termed "the great tribulation" because it will be more severe in persecution upon Israel than the first three and one half years. Antichrist, who will protect Israel for the first three and one half years, will break his covenant with her in the middle of the Week and becomes her bitter enemy. He will then try and destroy her, which calls for the judgments of the seven vials of the last three and one half years. This part of the tribulation includes the fulfillment of Rev. 10:1-19:21. Jesus, Daniel, Jeremiah, and many others speak of this time of Israels trouble as being worse than any time that has ever been on the Earth or ever will be (Dan. 12:1; Jer. 30:4-11; Matt. 24:21, 22; Rev. 11;1, 2; 12:14-17; 13:5-7).

__________________________________________________________________________ I accept your kind apology although I was not personally offended. I have a hide a thick as a Rino's. I understand how these things can happen, often without us even realising we have done this. May I first state that I am not questioning your knowledge on this subject, but putting forward what I have learnt and up till know believe is doctrinal regarding the Tribulation and also the rapture.. However I will take up your offer, "challenge," to see for myself what you say is in fact the truth. I will get back as soon as time permits. If I am proven wrong, with the help of the Holy Spirit, I will apologise and change my stance as quick as lightning. I have no pet theories I wish to hold on to or argue. All I am interested in is truth. (John 5:39). Again Thank you.

_______________________________________________________________________ Some hoax? "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21). "And except these those days should be shortned, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22). There must be a future tribulation for people to come out of it. This fact is also revealed in Revelation. "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:13-14). Before you go accusing Lawer for God of getting carried away with drivel as you so rudly put it, maybe you should take some of your own advice and read these Scriptures. What is meant by the rapture of the church is the catching up of all true believers in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. This even is simply and clearly predicted in 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 1 Cor. 15:23, 51-58; Phil. 3:20, 21; John 14:1-3; Luke 21:34-36; Col. 3:4 and other passages. In fact, it would be hard to understand how even one person could fail to understand such a doctrin if he would be honest and believe what is plainly written in these passages. The rapture of the church is called "the coming of the Lord" but never the second coming of Christ.

There is not one word in the entire Bible that mentions Infant baptism or any such practice. It is very clear from Scripture that baptism is only required after men have repented of their sins and have been born of the Spirit of God. There is no express command for infants to be baptized untill they become responsible agents and turn to God and have their sins, as adults, remitted. Salvation is a personal experience and children must become old enough to accept salvation before they are commanded to be baptized. Children, untill they become responsible, even though their parents are unsaved, will be taken to Heaven if they die before accountability just as much as those of saved parents. Read Matthew 18:1-10; 19:14). Scripture demands faith and repentance as being necessary before baptism and this no child can do untill he is old enough to understand sin and what to do to be saved. Infant baptism became prominent when churches began teaching baptism and other sacraments to save the soul and remit sin. Such practice makes it impossible to obey Christs command later without admitting infant-baptism was of no benifit. Since there are so many Scriptural reasons why infant-baptism should not be practiced and since it has no efficay it would be best to wait untill the child turns to God by faith and repents of sins of their own free will before it becomes baptised. Baptism is a symbol of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and it is a testimony to all the world that the individual has been saved from a life of sin and that the individual is now walking in newness of life. It is only people who are followers of Jesus that are commanded to be baptized. (Read Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; and Acts 2:38-39). The repentant thief on the cross at Jesus crucifiction was never baptized yet Jesus told him that "To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). So the truth is Baptism alone is actually not necessary for salvation. The purpose of baptism is not to save the soul, sanctify one, or make us children of God, Jesus did that through His death and resurrection. The sole purpose of baptism is plainly taught as being figurative and not litterally a clensing from sin. The palsied man of Matt. 9:1-7 was saved without water baptism: "Jesus seeing their faith [not their water baptism] said . . . thy sins be forgiven thee . . . the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins." Jesus did not baptize one person in all His ministry but He did remit sins of many people (John 4:2). This is sufficient proof that sins can be remitted without water baptism. There are many cases of remission of sins and healing which were done by faith without water baptism (Matt. 9:22; Mark 5:34; 10:52; Luke 7:48' 17:19; 18:42; Acts 3:16). An unnamed woman sinner was forgiven her sins before and without water baptism. Jesus said, "Her sins, which are many are forgiven . . . thy sins be forgiven . . . thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace (Luke 7:36-50). If Jesus did this to adult sinners why would He expect Children to be baptized to guarantee entry to heaven? many mmore scriptures fill the Bible showing adults being saved without water baptism.

As far as the Antichrist goes, when and from where he rises to power, we must go to the book of Daniel. According to Daniel, there will be ten kingdoms formed inside the Old Roman Empire territory. We can call these ten kingdoms the Revised Roman Empire for it will be the present twenty three or so states inside the old Roman Empire territory brought down to ten kingdoms and ruled by ten kings. Then and only then can the Antichrist come. That these ten kingdoms are yet to be formed in the future is proved by Revelation 17:12-17. In these passages the ten kings fight against Christ at His second advent, so they must be latter day kings and not ten barbarous tribes that overran the Roman Empire in the third, fourth, and fifth centuries. If ten kingdoms are to be formed inside the old Roman Empire from the twenty three present states in that territory then it is clear that there will be at least another war in Europe, Asia and Africa in order for this to be fulfilled. When these ten kingdoms are formed, then Daniel 7:23-24 will be fulfilled. After this tri-continent war has been waged and is over and the ten kingdoms are formed and they exist for a short time (Rev. 17:8-12), then the Antichrist will arise out of one of them, one of the ten kingdoms. He will come from one of the eastern four of the ten, and he will start another war. He shall subdue three of the ten in his rise to power over the ten (Dan. 7:23-24; 8:8-9, 21-23). He will make a seven years covenant with the nation of Israel and break it in the middle of the seven years and start another war (Dan. 9:27; 11:36-45). It will take him three and one half years to get power over these three kingdoms that he subdues. By that time the countries of the north and east unite to make war on the nations inside the Roman Empire. In these circumstances the other six of the ten kingdoms he does not overthrow will give their kingdoms to him and make him their leader against the countries of the north and east (Dan. 11:40-45). God puts it into the hearts of the ten to give their kingdoms to the Antichrist and to help him in these new wars (Rev. 17:12-17). The Antichrist will become the victor over these countries in the last three and one half years of this age and he will become the ruler of Russia and Germany. He will then gather these newley conquered countires against the Jews and seek to stop Christ from setting up His Kingdom (Ezek. 38 and 39; Zech. 14; Rev. 19:11-21). We can narrow down exactly from which country the Antichrist will come from in the book of Daniel. Daniel makes it clear that he will come from the ten kingdoms of the revised Old Roman Empire Territory (Dan. 7:7-8, 23-24), and from the four divisions of the Grecian Empire, which are four of the ten, as in (Dan. 8:7-9, 20-23), but it also makes it clear that he will come from the Cyrian division of the four divisions of Greece, as plainly taught in (Dan. 11). The king of the north of this chapter is Syria, and the king of the south is Egypt. Wars between these two divisions of Greece are pictured in Dan. 11:5-34). Verses 35-45 portray war between these same two kingdoms "AT THE TIME OF THE END," showing the result of the last war between them. It states that the land of Egypt shall not escape the king of the north in this last war, thus identifying Syria as being the country from which the Antichrist must come. If the king of the north was Russia as many Bible students now teach, how could Daniel 11:44 be fulfilled? There are no countries north of Russia that could fight against her, as required by this verse? There are no countries north of Russia, thus proving that the king of the north could not be Russia. We must understand the reference to be the northern division of the Grecian Empire, Syria. The Antichrist comes from Syria and is called the king of the north who will fulfill all of Dan. 8:22-23; 11:35-45; 12:1-7).

__________________________________________________________________________ Dear LadyC. Not many get it, and it lifts my spirit when someone does have it. You my friend, have it. If we are to believe that Judas was created a sinner, a devil, from the beginning, then we can accuse God of being the author of sin, and we know this is not so. The Greek word diabolos, translated devil in John 6:70, is also used of men. It litterally means adversary. Any human or spirit-adversary of Christ is a devil. It is translated "false accusers" (2 Tim. 3:3; Tit. 2:3), "slanderers" (1 Tim. 3:11), and "devil" elswhere. It teaches that Judas became an adversary, accuser, and slanderer of Christ. He was not a devil from the beginning as many teach. No such statement is found in the Bible of Judas, or anyone else. Even Satan was not a devil from the beginning. He was a sinless angel in the beginning (Ezek. 28:11-17). The Scriptures are quite clear that Judas was a saved man. A devil does not have his name written in the book of life. The Holy Spirit through Luke records that Judas, "By Transgression fell" (Acts 1:15-25). Jesus Himself, acknowledged to the Father that of those whom the Father had given Him, Judas was the only one whom He had lost (John 17:12). Christ COULD NOT HAVE LOST Judas if He never had him to lose. Jesus also testified that every one (including Judas) that the Father had given Him, Jesus had given eternal life (John 17:2). Judas had this eternal life as much as the others but he became "lost" later and "by transgression fell" (Acts 1:25). Scripture states that Judas was to be a man who was a "familiar friend" of Christ who ate of His bread, which is an idiom of close friendship (Ps. 41:9). Judas was not the enemy of Christ, but an equal in grace, a guide, and a sweet acquaintance (Ps. 55:12-13). He was to have his habitation desolate, and be blotted out of the books of the living (Ps. 69:25-28 with Acts 1:20), and he was to have "ANOTHER TAKE HIS PLACE" in the Christian ministry and in the Kingship over one of the tribes of Israel (Ps. 109:8), because Judas, "BY TRANSGRESSION FELL" (Acts 1:15-25). "That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship FROM WHICH JUDAS BY TRANSGRESSION FELL, that he may go to his own place" (Acts 1:25). Mathias was then numbered with THE ELEVEN (Acts 1:16). Again, the Holy Spirit through Luke records that Judas, "By Transgression fell" (Acts 1:15-25). Jesus Himself, acknowledged to the Father that of those whom the Father had given Him, Judas was the only one whom He had lost (John 17:12). Christ could not have lost Judas if He never had him to lose. We Christians go too far when we assume that the Father gave Jesus an unsaved devil to preach repentance and holiness, to heal the sick, to cast out devils, and to represent the Kingdom of God among men. If Judas never had the power of the spirit, was a devil, and healed the sick, like the other apostles and was a sucessful preacher and healer like them (Matt. 10:1-20; Mark 6:7-13), had his name written in Heaven, as proved by Acts 1:20 with Psalm 69:25-29, and fell from the apostleship by transgression (Acts 1:25 and was blotted out of the book of the living Ps. 69: 25-28 with Acts 1:20, and must have been in the book of the living at one time, and was to have "another take his place" in the ministry and in his kingship over one of the tribes of Israel (Ps. 109:8, and then these passages were fulfilled in Judas according to Matt 26:24; John 13:18 and Acts 1:16-25, why aren't we who are supposedly to at least have a measure of the Holy Spirit not strolling through our crowded hospitals and healing the sick in the Name of Jesus? There is nothing more spicific than the plan of God for human sons to be endued with power to represent God in the Earth. The spiritual tools of God are the gifts of the spirit which He wants exercised in full. Paul started his discourse of spiritual gifts by saying, "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethern I WOULD NOT HAVE YOU IGNORANT" (1 Cor. 12;1), and he ended his discourse by saying, "But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant" (1 Cor. 14:38). It seems the more simple and detailed the truths of God are, the more people are ignorant of them. Every time Paul uses a statement such as "I would not have you be ignorant" the subject is one of the most simple in Scripture to understand. If it is at all difficult it is simply and clearly explained in detail so there can be no misunderstanding if one wants to understand at all. The only way any person could not undersatnd that Judas actually had the Holy Spirit and the gift of healing as the other disciples had, because the twelve went out "two by two" preaching and healing the sick, is that they deliberately refuse to understand because the idea of Judas actually being originally saved like the other disciples, and that Jesus did lose Judas, so Jesus must have had him to have lost him, does not fit their pet theory. Paul taught that one may have the gifts of the Spirit and still not have love and they would profit nothing (1 Cor. 13:1-3).

Im Matt. 10 we have the fact recorded that Judas as one of the "twelve disciples" recieved power over demons, sichness and disease and a call to preach the gosple. Of these twelve (Judas included) it is said that Christ gave them power and sent them forth and commanded them to preach, and to heal the sick. Christ said to Judas and all the twelve, "freely ye have recieved, freely give. . . . I send you forth as sheep . . . it shall not be ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (Matt. 10:1-20). This statement proves that Judas was once a saved chosen and genuine apostle. He was then once a true believer, a saved man, one divinely empowerd for service and equal in every sense to the others, a called preacher, a destroyer of Satan's works, an obedient man, a sheep, a man filled with the spirit, and one who had God as his "Father." In Mark 6:7-133 we read that the twelve (Judas included) went "forth two by two . . . and preached that men should repent. And they (Judas included) cast out devisl, and anointed the sick with oil, and healed them. This proves Judas was a divinely empowerd man, a sucessful preacher and endued with power to heal. If he was not a saved man and if he could not have all these experiences and do all these miracles as a sinner, then it would seem that the modern Christians who claim to be saved regardless of what they do should be able to do as much as Judas did whom they say was never saved. It is unreasonable and going too far to accuse Jesus of choosing an unsaved man to preach repentance and holiness, and to heal the sick, to cast out devils, and to represent the Kingdom of God among men. The Holy Spirit through Luke records that Judas, "By Transgression fell" (Acts 1:15-25). Judas was not always a "devil" and a "thief." He became both after he had been saved for some time. His weakness was the love of money and this caused his fall (John 12:6; Luke 22:5; Matt. 26:14-16). If he had refused to be the treasurer of the first Christian disciples and frankly told them that money was his weakness, he would have been better off. Judas had seen Christ escape the mob many times and he no doubt thought that the Lord would escape again and he himself would be better off thirty pieces of silver. The Greek word diabolos translated devil in John 6:70 is also used of men. It litterally means adversary. Any human or spirit-adversary of Christ is a devil. It is translated "false accusers" (2 Tim. 3:3; Tit. 2:3), "slanderers" (1 Tim. 3:11), and "devil" elswhere. It teaches that Judas became an adversary, accuser, and slanderer of Christ. He was not a devil from the beginning as many teach. No such statement is found in the Bible of Judas, or anyone else. Even Satan was not a devil from the beginning. He was a sinless angel in the beginning (Ezek. 28:11-17). It was not untill the end of Christ's ministry that Judas began to pilfer and to grow cold in his love for Christ. It was not untill the last supper that the devil entered into him; that is, became united with him in the same crime. It was two days before the passover that he put into the heart of Judas to go to the enimies of Jesus to betray Him into their hands (Matt. 26:1-5, 14-16; John 13:2). It was atthis time that he openly broke with Christ and saught opportunity to betray Him. Judas was sorry afterwards for his betrayal (Matt. 27:3-5), and he could have been forgiven as much as any of the others who cursed ,and denied Christ and fled like cowards in the test. Peter denied Christ as Christ fortold, three times, He even cursed and denied Him. Peter later wept and repented and He was forgiven. Judas betrayed Jesus as fortold but instead of repenting as Peter repented for his sin, Judas brooded over his sin for a long time and Satan was able to talk him into committing suicide by hanging himself, and his name was removed from the book of life. Now many say he was not a saved man. Yes he was. His name was in the book of life for it to be able to be removed! Paul was a saved man and as a saved man was afraid of being "cast away." He literally meant he was afraid of loosing his soul in Hell with all the other reprobates and rejected men. When he told us what he had to do lest he should loose his soul, he wanted us to know that true security is in bringing the body under subjection as in Romans 8:13 and in living right instead of living in sin EVERY DAY, as advocated by unconditional eternal securityites (Gal. 5:16-24; Rom. 8:1-13; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; 2 Cor. 5:17; 7:1; 10:4, 5; Gal. 2:20; 6:14; Phil. 3:7-14; 2 Tim. 4:7, 8; Heb. 12:14). Paul taught conditional security, which is the only true security in Scripture. Jesus Himself, acknowledged to the Father that of those whom the Father had given Him, Judas was the only one whom He had lost (John 17:12). Christ could not have lost Judas if He never had him to lose. Jesus also testified that every one (including Judas) that the Father had given Him, Jesus had given eternal life (John 17:2). Judas had this eternallife as much as the others but he became "lost" later and "by transgression fell" (Acts 1:25).

It is unbiblical to suggest that there is a greater level of punishment for the soul that sins more than another. Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. The message is clear. All have sinned. All souls that sin will die. Eternal life is granted as a gift from God through his son, Jesus Christ. The soul that fails to repent shall die. Period. There is no probation, pergatory, or indulgences to worry about and the notion of such is also unbiblical. __________________________________________________________________________ No offense meant here. I never once mentioned probation, pergatory, or indulgences, and I do not believe in them at all in any way. As a free moral agent you can believe what you like. I intend to believe what Jesus taught and not ther pet theories of men. Jesus taught that it would be more tolerable for some in the day of judgment than for others (Matt. 11:20-24); that some would be found to be twofold more a child of Hell than others, and will recieve "greater damnation" (Matt. 23:14-15); and that every man will be judged according to his works (Rev. 20:11-15). Saints will be rewarded according to their works (Matt. 10:41-42; 16:27; Romans 14:10-12; 2 Cor. 5:10-11; Rev. 22:12). So these Scriptures show that there will be degrees of punishment in Hell according to sins comitted, and rewards in Heaven according to our works, the good things done in our lives.