zaitzeff

>This is an amazingly inaccurate statement, in my opinion. >But then I guess that depends on your definition >of "freedom". You may want to ask Native Americans, >Austrailian Aboriginies, African natives, and etc. about their >freedom today as compared to that of their ancestors. Even >in my short lifetime I have seen my own individual freedoms >evaporate by way of borders, regulation, law, fees, and etc. >Maybe if you gave some specific illustrations of how we are >more free today than a hundred years ago, it would help? Blacks are free to sit in an open seat on a bus without being beaten for it by the other passengers or police. Blacks are free to go to restaurants, of their choice, that their tax dollars had supported without being beaten. And, as you might know, Africans have enslaved each other and still are enslaving each other in Sudan and perhaps other places. The "slave trade" in the 1700s and 1800s only could exist because various African tribes enslaved others of other tribes and sold them to the whites. If I recall correctly, it was the British who put a stop to most of the slave trade. And they stopped because of William Wilberforce, a Christian member of parliament. Yes, as for the Native Americans, you might recall that before the whites came to the Americas, a number of Indian groups performed human sacrifice to their gods. I forget the numbers, but, as I recall, the Aztecs of Mexico slaughtered thousands every year of their own people. Now that the whites have come, with their Bibles, intentional human sacrifice has been stopped. Yes, the "freedom" of the Natives has really gone way down! So, yes, African-Americans who live here are no longer able to enslave their next-door neighbor and neither is some white able to enslave his neighbor or someone living Africa. The local Indian tribes don't sacrifice virgins to various deities. The australian aborigines don't get to eat people anymore. So, yes, I guess, their freedom has been diminished, but that freedom surely was not freedom within some kind of godly limitations. If America is so unfree as you allege, perhaps you would like to move to Canada, or Mexico, or Red China? How about Russia, instead? You say that your freedom has been diminished because of borders and fees. Your freedom to have your own religion and to propagate it is certainly not diminished. Your freedom to print your views or attend the church of your choice is not diminished. Your freedom to even create a church of your choice is not diminished. It is true that in the USA, there are some slight flaws here and there, re Christian real estate business cards, re marijuana use, re physician assisted suicide, re polygamy. If you really want to undo the US borders, I am not sure how long you and I would have water to drink and cities which are not destroyed by the next 9/11. I am not denying that there are some slight flaws and that Christians should take political note and action to remedy those flaws. In speaking of America, I mean, America as a whole, over the last 200 years, with the exception of slavery of which society has repented. That America is the most free or nearly the most free land in earth in the history of the earth. 500 years ago, even if there had been an Internet, you and I could not have had this conversation. We would be found and burned for heresy for not being Roman Catholic, not being Russian Orthodox or whatever.

zaitzeff: >I can see thus far that everyone who is reading your rediculous rubbish sees it for what it >is; Garbage theology formed in your mind and stats Not from the Holy Ghost and the >Word of God. you might wish to visit or join the group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smilingg/ where at least one other Christian has enjoyed reading my thoughts. whether he agrees with them all, I don't know. >Get a clue dude! Jesus said these days will get "increasingly evil" so that they will be like in the days of Noah. remind me of the verse, if you would. >I am not able to discern what you believe or if you do believe at all in Jesus Christ. But, >know this; God foretold that scoffers and vile pervertedness of doctrines would rise up in >the "last days". Your stats only prove people rushing around looking for "their version" >of Spirituality in God instead of humbling themselves and seeking Him personally as He >requires of us to do. Pentecostal (or any denominational orgs) growing by percentage >rates faster than any other religion is more an indicator of the "Apostacy" Paul spoke of >in these days rather than a growth in True Christianity. It is hard to know who exactly is a true Christian and who is not. Luther, Calvin and Knox concluded that in many cases it was impossible to know and moreover, unnecessary to know. The evangelicals are growing at 5% a year and the Pentecostals at 8% a year. Does that mean that all such who are counted are true Christians? No, we don't really know that for sure. However, the evangelicals and Pentecostals which are growing numerically at least mean that such as attend their churches are not attending the local Catholic church, Kingdom Hall or LDS meeting house or just watching football on Sunday morning. They are attending a church were they are likely to hear and be taught and believe the Bible, rather than a church without the Bible, or the TV without the Bible. Today, we have an American society with far more freedom, peace and justice than any society known from history. We have that because there are so many Bible-believers in America and because Bible-believers have lived here in years past. >God said the period of the antichrist will be worse than any time in history and worse than >any time beyond it. in what verse, if I may ask? The Bible, when it uses the term anti-christ, speaks of many, not one. I John 2, if I recall correctly. You are attributing to the Bible your own fantasies. >But, the worst part is yet to come for Tribulation even Great Tribulation is one thing and >can be endured but, His Wrath WHICH SHALL COME is going to make men scream for >the mountains to fall on them. there are many cases in which men have wished to die or have in fact killed themselves. Many of the persecutors of the Christians have killed themselves. God's wrath did come upon the persecutors of the Church in the Roman Empire and God's wrath did come upon many persecutors of the church in the USSR and it will continue to come upon those persecutors in Red China. > That means even if you slit your throat, blow yourself up, etc..., no one will be able to >escape via death for there will be no death to escape you to the grave. Perhaps the Bible's language here was a matter of poetic hyperbole. You believe that God will suddenly, during this time, do a series of miracles so that people who pull the trigger of a gun to kill themselves, will find that the gun won't fire or the bullet does not kill them?

>Yes, the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is a fantasy created by people who are careless in >Bible study. However, that does not prove the earth's conditions, or society's conditions, >will gradually get better and better over time. The Bible says that the kingdom of heaven is like yeast that gradually transforms the dough, Mt 13:33. Unless you wish to believe that the kingdom of God has an influence that makes society worse--then the gradual and transforming spread of the kingdom of God is naturally going to make things better! >However, any seeming Roman-Empire or USSR "repentance" of their former persecution >is at best an illusion. and, your evidence for this is ??? By the way, in case you have not noticed, the USSR no longer exists and so it can't persecute the Christians any more! >And as to that persecution and its present-day like: Other countries may now also appear >to change - maybe some "peacefully", some as a result of civil war, or some as a result of >external war - but in the end, their alleged "peace" will prove to be but a similar illusion. And you also predict that the USA is going to persecute Christians? It is true that the USA has some minor flaws here and there. It is true that the USA has been trying to muzzle MDs who recommend marijuana to patients or that in the USA, a real estate agent can't put a cross on his/her business card, I think. Now, either the rest of the world is going to become more and more like the USA in terms of political and religious freedoms, or the USA is going to become like the world in terms of persecuting the Christians. I don't know if you have read any history, but, in the last 1000 years, it is pretty plain to see that the trend is for more and more freedom in every area: religion, press, political, etc. >However, you are correct: Right now, there are many countries listed as severely >persecuting 'Christians', which, over the years ahead, if the Messiah does not return >sooner, will gradually seem to reduce in number, maybe even down to "zero" ... you agree with me! >The alleged progress of "world society to paradise" is like the alleged progress of the >stock market: Seeming "corrections" are made when it fails, the long-term trend is >deceptively presented as being "up" ... yet in the end, each will fail completely, and >miserably. the market is way above where it was in 1993 or 1893, for that matter. >Some historians say that 'the Christians' ... >As an aside: There is where, for the second time in your original post, you "gave yourself >away", so to speak, as a "mouthpiece of Satan", by referring to "the Christians" as a >group other than your own. Paul at times refers to the saints, but that does not prove that he is not one of them. >Some historians say 'the Christians' revolutionized Rome, and whether true or false, >religion now plays on that report. However, the true "revolution" actually happened at "it >is finished" when the Messiah was crucified! It should be obvious to you that the yeast has not yet transformed all the dough. Mt 13:33 >In any case, the "revolution" is already complete; we simply do not need another. >Folks: See how simple these things really are?! Do you still pray that God's kingdom come? >Nevertheless, many Christians do seem to foolishly believe, as some religions dogmatically teach, that it is their job to yet "revolutionize the world" anyway! Mt 28:18-20. >Hence: >All around the world, there will be governments that are more or less allegedly >"democratic", which allegedly respect freedom of religion, of speech, of the press, of >assembly and the right to petition. And, every government that is opposed to these >things will be taken down if its fails to willingly "repent" and adopt them on its own, >joining Satan's global-government New World Order. The Red Chinese and the Saudis will fall because they persecute the Christians. So says Gen 12:3 and so says, Mt 21:44. >And all the while, more and more people on earth will become "Christian." The >percentage that is already "Christian" is going to go up, and up ... you have a problem with that? >and of the percentage that is called Christian, more and more will allegedly be "committed >'believers'" in what is going on. And as Satan's One World Religion - ecumenism, >interfaithism, "let's all just get along" - continues to grow, fewer and fewer people on >Earth will be Orthodox, Roman Catholic or "mainstream liberal". I am formerly LDS and everybody who knows me knows that I oppose LDS errors, JW errors, Catholic errors, and all similar errors. >(Note: I bet the average Iraqi citizen is just thrilled at that possibility!) Iraq now is a lot like Nazi Germany during WWII. If and when we come, some will be happy and some will be sad. >Among Christians, Christianity as it is understood by alleged "believers" will evolve in >such a way that truths formerly rejected by many believers are adopted and considered >normal. >Has anybody ever read anything like that in Scripture? Take heed! 500 years ago, in Europe, Christianity was understood to mean Catholicism, nothing else. Your idea of Christianity is apparently just as faulty, because it includes many false ideas. >For some, all of this will seem fun to watch, but this proposed man-made paradise will >never arrive ... It will be the work of God; it has been the work of God. Tell me, Lee, do you believe that God favored the American Revolution, or was God indifferent? Did God favor the Union in the Civil War, or was God indifferent? Did God favor the Protestant Reformation, or was God indifferent? Did God just disappear from society at large; does God confine Himself to answering the prayers of individuals about their own individual lives, and do nothing of any greater scope? Or, does God set up and take down kings and rulers at His pleasure? Did God give the American founding fathers wisdom, or was He absent?

--- In smilingg@y..., "Robert Bayer" <robertbayer@e...> wrote: > Thank you for answering my questions David. In two mails, under the above > subject headings, you have asserted many things about the future and an > interpretation of Matthew 24:21-31. Do you have any reasons for these > assertions? about the future, the reasons are as follows-- If we take the Bible seriously, then we would both agree that the Bible foretells a time of peace and prosperity in a number of passages in the Old Testament, of which the chief is Is 65:17-25. In addition to Is 65, we should note the promises of Is 2:1-5 and 11:1-9. These passages describe a time of human mortality, but in which the world and society and nature are at peace. Men do not steal from each other; nations do not make war on each other. Even nature does not injure man. Is 19:23-25 says that Egypt and Assyria will worship the Lord and God will bless them as His people. The question for us, if we wish to speculate about the future or seek to understand it, is, "How will the earth go from its current conditions to the time described above?" There are two basic answers to this proposed among Christians today: 1) world society will be changed in an instant by the sudden appearance of Jesus in the sky, who will kill vast armies and anyone else who opposes him around the globe. The pastors and popular writers who propose this theory, in whatever year, frequently seem to place this event in what is, for them, the very near future, usually from 2 to 20 years in the future. And, they have always been wrong, whenever they have made predictions about any of the following: the year or years of the return of Jesus, the identity of the "anti-Christ," the future composition of the EU, the influence and power of the USA, etc. Anyone can read the books of Hal Lindsey or David Wilkerson over the last 30 years to see how wrong and how badly they predict the future, which is generally the opposite of what they have said it would be. 2) world society will be changed by the same slow and gradual processes which have been at work already for the last 2000 years. These processes include prayer, evangelism, Bible reading and the maturing of the saints by pastors pastoring their churches. These processes include the wicked and persecutors being cursed and dying in various ways. These processes include God blessing the righteous and those who will bless the Christians, and making them the head and leaders of society. At times, these processes even include revolutions and wars in which the rule of the wicked is overthrown and replaced by the rule of those who refrain from persecuting Christians. Advocates of both views appeal to certain passages to support their positions. Those who advocate the instantaneous-change thesis emphasize certain passages of scripture, while generally neglecting those passages which teach the gradual growth of the kingdom, Dan 2:34,35, Dan 7:12, Mt 13:31-33. They also tend to neglect those passages which indicate that it is the saints themselves who shall fight and destroy the enemy, Micah 4:13, Micah 5:7-9. Why would we choose one over the other of these views? I think we should note three things: 1) What we thought God told us about the past re Adam and Eve, the flood, etc, was in fact a parable. We know from science that the story of Adam and Eve and the flood did not happen at all or did not happen as described. The story of Adam and Eve was told us for some other purpose than to convey information about history. So it is with a number of Bible stories. Jews told stories for their lesson, and not necessary because they were in fact history. See II Samuel 12:1-7, the parables of Jesus and the book of Jonah. The story of the 2nd coming of Jesus, likewise, is told for other purposes than to reveal the future. We know that because a) Jesus has always been with us, and b) Jesus already has all power in heaven and over the earth, Mt 28:18-20, Mt 18:20. 2) Common sense tells us that if there are two kinds of plants in a garden and one kind is favored by resistance to disease and quick and easy multiplication, that it will, more and more, displace the other kind of plant. In the absence of persecution, Christians are favored over unbelievers, Deut 28. Over time, Christians tend to displace unbelievers, partly by evangelism, partly by the early and premature deaths of unbelievers, partly by having kids and the unbelievers not having kids. This happened in the Roman Empire from 30AD to 400AD. It is happening in the world now. Likewise, political systems that bless Christians are favored and blessed over systems that curse Christians. Over time, such systems are blessed and favored and grow and take a benign dominion over the rest of the world, if only by example. 3) the consistently wrong predictions of the advocates of the instantaneous-change thesis is a sign that their thesis as a whole is wrong and that they have been misreading the Bible.

try again to accomplish what? In arguing or debate or discussion, a person would present a thesis and/or a conclusion. Then, he presents evidence to support his thesis and reasons as to why the evidence is best explained, or only explained, by that thesis. My thesis is this: the conditions of the earth/society are going to gradually get better, in terms of its spiritual well-being, in terms of religious and other freedoms. Yes, it is true that we might have some serious environmental problems, more serious, before things get better. You can find my evidence in Gen 12:3, Deut 28, Daniel 2, Mt 13.

>But at least in this case, Scripture actually says something >quite different. So, there is but one conclusion remaining: >Rubbish! your argument remind me of the Jews who rejected and today still reject Christ as the Messiah. They believe the scriptures, or they say that they do. They then cite a number of passages which they allege are prophecies of things they say the Messiah would do while on earth, to wit, bring world peace, prosperity and endless happiness to the Jews. Because the world has not had peace in the last 2000 years, because their is poverty, because the Jews have been persecuted and oppressed in the last 2000 years, they say, therefore, the Messiah has not come. Therefore, Jesus was not and is not the Messiah! The history of Bible interpretation shows that it is so easy as you are making it. The Bible says that there were 14 generations from David to Jeconiah, but actually there were 18! The Bible tells you to cut off your hand if it offends or pluck out your eye, but I hazard the guess that you have not done so! Correct me if I am wrong! So, if you want to go by, "what the Bible says, nothing more and nothing less, without any interpretation and without using reason to make sense of it" let me know after you get back from the hospital emergency room. Since you will be missing a hand and an eye, I don't know if you will still be driving your cab. Perhaps you will have more time to study with your remaining eye. As for the Bible, hear what it says, "The kingdom of God is like a mustard seed. when it is planted it is the smallest of the seeds, but it grows to be the largest plant." "The kingdom of God is like leaven placed in meal, which leavens it." "I saw a stone without hands that became a mountain and then filled the whole earth." In each of these cases, describing the kingdom of God, the growth of the kingdom is shown to be gradual and to take place over time. If you have kids, they don't become 6 feet tall in a day or even a year, or even 5 years. The kingdom of God is like that in its growth. It grows slowly and gradually in numbers, influence and maturity. Even the Bible speaks of the church as the perfect man, no longer tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. The church is not yet mature, but it becomes mature over a period of time and by a process. The process is not yet done and will not be done for many years. The same is true of society as a whole.

Re God telling us what is going to happen Yes, I have read the Bible many times. God says, "I will bless those who bless you [Abraham], and I will curse those who curse you [Abraham]." Gen 12:3 Today, Christians are the seed of Abraham and the inheritors of that promise. Those who curse Christians are curse; those who bless Christians are blessed. God also says that those who did what he said would be the head and not the tail, and He would bless them. Those who did not would be cursed. You have seen it happen already in the history of the Roman Empire. Those who cursed God and God's people were cursed and finally destroyed. Those who blessed God and God's people were blessed and prospered. If you wish, read about the lives of Diocletian and Galerius and Valerian and Constantine. Read about the pagan rebellion around 380 and how God send a wind to scatter the evil army. Read how Constantine destroyed many armies many times his size, and how, in one of the last battles, a great storm arose and sank the ships of Licinius. Read about the horrible and miserable deaths of those who led the persecutions of the Christians: suicide, torture, assasination, incurable and undiagnosable disease, etc. God blessed the Protestants v. the Roman Catholics. God blessed the English in 1588. God blessed the Americans in 1776 and 1787 and God blessed the Union in 1863. God blessed the English in 1942 & 1943 and God blessed the Allies in 1944. God has blessed America because America has religious freedom and freedom is a blessing to the Christians. God blessed the West by letting Andropov [ruler of the USSR] die and after him Gorbachev came in with Glasnost, and then the collapse of the USSR. The West isn't perfect, but it generally does bless God's people, while the East--China, North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc--does not. So, God will curse and has cursed the East while God is blessing the West and God is making the West the head and the East the tail. Right now, North Korea can barely feed its people and people are dying to get out of North Korea. Red China is becoming more and more capitalist; over time, the Party itself will collapse as the sole power in China, just as it did in Russia.

Well, to the naysayers, I have a few questions. Are you denying that evangelical Christians are currently growing at 5% a year and Pentecostals at 8% a year? You do realize that this growth rate is faster than the growth rate of world population or the Muslim population growth rate? You do realize that the Pentecostal growth rate is faster than the growth rate of the JWs or the LDS or any apparent competitors? Are you saying that the % of the world population which Christian is going to enter a period of decline over the next 10 or 20 years? Are you saying that the number of countries which severely persecutes Christians, as measured by the list of Voice of the Martyrs, is going to increase to more than 50 or more and continue increasing? Are you saying that the governments of the earth are going to let their people have less and less freedom, that there will be more kings and less constitutions? Are you saying that the North Koreans and the Red Chinese governments will prosper and increase in dominion? Tell me, just what are you saying?

Greetings Lee Joseph I could be wrong, but I think the word is rubbish, not rubbush. If you wish, pray and ask God what is the truth on the matter, and, if you wish, read books in the library, and you may learn.

those who wish, visit the eschatology board for my views on the future of the earth

--- In smilingg@yahoogroups.com, "ahi_tuna_extra_rare" <mattanders@y...> wrote: > Opinions? Yes, the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is a fantasy created by people who are careless in Bible study. The future of the earth is that the earth's conditions, or society's conditions, will gradually get better and better over time. In the first place, all the governments that persecute Christians are cursed and under a curse. They will be overthrown by God. They will be dissolved or overthrown or will repent of their persecution of the Christians, just as happened with the Roman Empire, and with the USSR. Some countries [those which are persecuting countries] will change peacefully and some will change as a result of civil war and some will change as a result of external war. Right now, there are just over 40 countries listed by VOM as severely persecuting the Christians. Over the next 50 years or the next 100 years, that number will gradually go down, and will continue to go down until it is zero. The progress of world society to paradise is not straight up. Sometimes there are what seem to be setbacks. Sometimes there are what seem to be plateaus. From week to week, from year to year, there may seem at times to be "no growth." Sometimes there are wars that seem pointless and sometimes there are wars that obviously directly advance the cause of freedom. The progress of world society to paradise is like the progress of the stock market. Yes, there are "corrections," but the long-term trend is up. Yes, there are bear markets, but the long-term trend is up. Sometimes, historians who study Rome before and after 313 say that the Christians revolutionized Rome. However, it was a revolution that took place over more than 300 years! In the same way, Christians will revolutionize the world! All around the world, there will be governments which are more or less democratic, which respect freedom of religion, of speech, of the press, of assembly and the right to petition the government. Every government that is opposed to these things will either fall or repent and adopt them. At the same time, more and more people on earth will become Christian. The % which is Christian is going to go up, and up. For the last 100 years, the % marked as Christian has been plateaued at 33%, but that % is poised to be going up for the next 50 or 100 years or so before the next plateau. And, of the % which is called Christian, more and more will be committed believers. Fewer and fewer will be Orthodox, Roman Catholic or the mainstream liberal church of the USA. Evangelicals are growing at 5% a year and Pentecostals are growing at 8% a year. The JWs and the SDA and the LDS will grow and grow for a time, as they have been, and then their numbers will plateau and then they will decline. Probably other new semi-Christian churches will arise which will grow for a while and then plateau and then decline. As the Christians grow in numbers and in % and in maturity, their influence on society and politics shall increase. The world shall become more and more free. We are likely to see this happen shortly in Iraq. I expect a little war to remove Saddam, followed by American reconstruction of Iraqi society. In the process, the Iraq government will come to look more like the US government in its structure--with a constitution and an independent judiciary and separation of powers, etc. Osama bin Laden has actually helped us Christianize the world. He provoked the USA into overthrowing the Taliban. The new Afghani government is not perfect, and still says it believes in Sharia law, but many Christians and Christian aid organizations have returned or are returning since the fall of the Taliban. The Taliban's fall has unleashed a pent-up desire in Afghanistan and Kabul for things from the West. So, Afghanistan has taken a baby step towards greater religious freedom. They'll plateau and make take a step back at some point. Their progress looks like the progress of the church under the USSR. There were waves of persecution and there were lulls and times of greater freedom. Among the Christians, Christianity itself--as it is understood by believers--will evolve in such a way that truths formerly rejected by many believers are adopted and considered normal. There was a revolution in the understanding of Christianity at the time of Luther. Likewise, committed Christianity--as it is understood by believers--will become more and more reconciled to the knowledge of science, and also to our responsibility to take care of the earth's environment. It will be fun to watch, but it may take another 100 years or 200 years or more for paradise to arrive, in which all on earth are Christian and walking with God, and all who are Christian have forsaken attempts to impose false elements of "the faith" on others by pseudo-scholarship. After a while, the governments shall no longer exist, at least as we understand them. All things will be done by the people acting collectively, and unanimously. So, the people and the government shall be the same and no one shall speak of "the government" because all of them together are the government.