jenwat3

Hi jenwat3, I wish to start by saying that I do not seek to attack you personally in any way. I do not post very much by some standards. That is because my focus and therefore my posts lean more toward evangelism than anything else. Unfortunately, in today's modern church you don't see much of that anymore. What is being done is usually unscriptural and producing "counterfeit Christians" whose later condition is worse than their first. I believe that the issue of Hell is very relevant to evangelism. I believe that you have been misled about what the Bible says about Hell and therefore are perpetuating that misinformation. This is understandable. Many people have been taught similar concepts. It is the misinformation that I take issue with. With many modern churches focusing on a ministry of "love, peace and joy" rather than "repentance" things are already in a serious state of affairs. Teaching that Hell is not really such a big deal only serves to worsen that situation. Some borderline unbelievers begin weighing the options of living any way they want because in the end they simply cease to exist while truly Saved individuals shy away from witnessing because it really doesn't matter, the consequences simply aren't that bad. It also diminishes the sacrifice that God made. He sent his Son to die on the cross for all of our sins. Well, that would have been a bit of an over reaction if the final result of not accepting that gift is simply to cease to exist. Why then did He make such an enormous sacrifice? So that some could have salvation? Well, those that reject that salvation aren't really going to care very much when they are no longer sentient. I believe His purpose for making this sacrifice goes further than that. I believe it is because the alternative is much worse than annihilation. I believe that the scriptures teach us this. Quenched means to "put out" or "put and end to". You seem to agree with that much. Therefore when the Bible tells us that this fire will not be quenched I would assume that you would also agree that it means it "cannot be put out". If it cannot be put out then we are not really left with any scenario in which it goes out for any reason. If this is the case then what about those unsaved souls? They burn up? Cease to exist? Everlasting simply means to "last forever". Several of the scriptures that I quoted refer to this punishment as everlasting. The punishment is not something separate from the person being punished. When I was young and told to stand in the corner of the classroom I knew that I was being punished. After a time when I was allowed to return to my seat I knew that the punishment was over. There was not an invisible activity of punishment continuing in that particular corner of the classroom. "Everlasting punishment" tells us therefore that it goes on forever and for it to be a punishment someone has to experience it. The scriptures quite clearly tell us that the unsaved will be among those experiencing this punishment. Hades actually means something quite different than the grave. However, your exception to my post seems to focus mostly on the suggestion of an everlasting punishment for the unsaved. So, I don't really think that spending time on that particular topic in this thread would be very valuable. My concern is that if we diminish or allow to be diminished what the Bible teaches us about Hell then we make it easer for souls to slip into that place. Trying to convert sinners to Christ by scaring them with Hell is not very effective. Spurring the Saved on to greater efforts at witnessing to the unsaved is! ~Neeva Neeva, first I would like to say that I appreciate your tone when discussing this. I have had debates like this before where others weren't half as understanding as you. To cut to the chase, where in scripture does it say "the wicked will burn forever"? It plainly states "the wages of sin is death", not eternal burning. To quote John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believed in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life". Note how the term PERISH here is contrasted with everlasting life? If people actually burned forever, they would still have eternal life! But they PERISH.

I am the one who said people will be gone forever. All the verse you gave do not say "everlasting punishing". They say everlasting punishMENT. The punishment will be everlasting. All who are thrown in the lake of fire will burn up and be gone forever. The everlasting punishment is that they will have no chance for anothre resurrection. And an unquenchable fire is one that cannot be put out. It does not mean that it will burn forever. It will eventually go out when there is nothing left to burn. Hades, in Greek, means the same as Sheol. It means the grave, not someplace where the dead are still alive or are capable of thought or feeling. The final destiny of the sinner? "The soul that sins shall DIE". The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal punishing in hell.

I am confused as to why no one who responded brought up that there is no eternal hell, where people burn forever? I am not denying the existance of hell, all I am saying is that the humans who will be sent there will not burn forever in eternal torment. They will simply be gone forever. Souls can die, and be destroyed. Notice that hell is reserved for the devil and his angels. If someone has a reservation somewhere, others may be there before the reservee arrives. But they will need to be gone before he arrives.

The number of earthquakes is indeed rising. In my opinion, we should also be looking at floods, tornadoes, drought, famines, etc. All of these are happening more and more frequently.

The verses that say "Her Sabbaths" are not referring to God's Sabbaths. Theses are referring to the false sabbaths and holidays that so many keep. I did not read all of your post, so I only picked out a few things here. Ex.20:8-10 is not talking about Sabbath days. This is talking about days of fasting.

Shalom Jenna, Sorry, you have not proven that we are commanded to keep the Sabbath for salvation. You keep saying the same thing and frankly, it's going around in circles. With no Scriptural support, you have your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, your opinion is not binding on anyone else. Shalom to you. I have given scripture, you simply refuse to see it. Yes we are going in circles, as you have no support for your side either. Your opinion doesn't bind me either, or anyone else for that matter. I listen to God, whether you do or not is your choice.

Shalom, We are talking about the Sabbath Jenwat. No one ever said we should not keep the Sabbath, but NO WHERE in Scripture does it say keeping the Sabbath is MANDATORY for salvation. That is a false doctrine. Yes, we are talking about the Sabbath. The Sabbath was only one commandment. The way you make it sound is that nowhere is obeying what God commands is essential for salvation. We cannot ignore ANY of what He commands, that would be the same as ignoring all of what He commands. I would rather stake my salvation on obeying Him than disobeying Him. And you can call me Jenna, if you wish.

Shalom Jen, Actually not. I didn't refute my own argument at all. You obviously did not read or understand the article for it explained we are not justified through works. And this topic about SABBATH, which you are skirting around. The claim has been made that we are saved by keeping the Sabbath. You, or JemDude have not shown ONE Scripture that says keeping the Sabbath will save anyone. Keeping the Sabbath never saved any Jew and it won't save us. We are not saved by works, nor are we saved by keeping the Sabbath. We are saved by FAITH through GRACE: You have repeatedly ignored these clear Scriptures: Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. I have not ignored these scriptures at all. No one is saved by works alone. However, does this mean we should not do works? Absolutely not! No one is saved by keeping the Sabbath, but if one truly has faith in christ he will do all he can to live the life Christ led. This includes keeping the Sabbath, along with all commandments. Faith alone cannot save, neither can works alone. My point is you must have BOTH. One is useless without the other.

The verses you quoted say we are JUSTIFIED through faith, not SAVED by faith. You may also want to re-read Matthew 5:19. "For whosoever breaks the least of these COMMANDMENTS shall be called least in heaven". Faith and works is what saves us, not faith alone, or by works alone. They go together.

Shalom Jemdude, However, these sins ARE taught against in the NT, so your argument is invalid. I am responding to YOUR false statement that Jesus was referring to the LAW when He spoke of His commandments. If thay were true, you'd still be sacrificing bulls and goats. So, even though the4 Sabbath is a good thing to observe, you have wrongly turned it into a LAw command and an issue of salvation, which it is not. Straw Man. Stick to the topic of the Sabbath please. Vickilynn, commandment keeping and doing what God commands us IS essential for salvation. One cannot simply say "I believe Christ died for me" and still be saved. Faith without works is useless and dead. This is found in James 2, starting at verse 14.

God's commandment is based 6 days of labor and one day of rest not on some day assigned by man and his calendar which changes from across the world. As far as the Jews have successfully preserved the 7th day Sabbath, are these the same Jews that heard the prophets teachings of the coming Messiah? Well they sure got that right didn't they. Sorry but the Sabbath means day of rest not Saturday. That day very well may be on a Saturday for some but for most it is not. It is amazing how you can take some parts of the commandment literally and other just brush off because it doesn't fit your life style. IHS JB If God wanted us to worship just any day, He would have said so. He is the one who specified the seventh day, not man. You are the only one brushing off the commandment to fit your lifestyle.

Jemdude jenwat3 This is not a debate on observing the Sabbath or not observing the Sabbath, it is about WHEN to observe the Sabbath. And here is what He wrote. 8 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. 9 For six days you shall labour and do all your work. 10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work

Which counsel would that be? Since the Sabbath was made for man (His counsel), it was made for you to keep. Or are you not a man? "This man is not from God" was not Christ speaking, so it was not His counsel. Colossians 2:16 Therefore don't let anyone judge you in regard to food and drink or in the matter of a festival or a new moon or a sabbath day. 2:17 These are a shadow of what was to come; the substance is the Messiah. Romans 14:5 One person considers one day to be above another day. Someone else considers every day to be the same. Each one must be fully convinced in his own mind. 14:6 Whoever observes the day, observes it to the Lord. Whoever eats, eats to the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; and whoever does not eat, it is to the Lord that he does not eat, yet he thanks God. 14:10 But you, why do you criticize your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written: As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to Me, and every tongue will give praise to God. 12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 13 Therefore, let us no longer criticize one another, but instead decide not to put a stumbling block or pitfall in your brother's way. So for sure it's not your counsel. IHS JB No it's not my counsel, it's Christ's. All your reasoning for not keeping the Day He commands are just excuses to not doing what He says.

Which counsel would that be? Since the Sabbath was made for man (His counsel), it was made for you to keep. Or are you not a man? "This man is not from God" was not Christ speaking, so it was not His counsel.

The best way of answering this is that God and Jesus are one FAMILY, not one being. A family can be one, but still have more than one member.

Jb, the dictionary was written by man, yes. You keep talking about the WORK week, not the actual week. The first day of the actual week is Sunday. The 7th is Saturday. The Sabbath day is Saturday. You try to justify your disobedience to God's command by a legality of the work week? Pretty sad the excuses man has not to obey God.

There is - as always - a difference in man's standards and Gods. You are right that most people start their work week on Monday. International standard ISO-8601 (International Organization for Standardization (ISO)) has standardized Monday as the "first" day of the week. In my opinion it is just one more secular, worldly way of attempting to usurp God's authority. In Genesis we are not told that on Monday God created the heavens and the earth and He said "Let there be light" and that was the first day, then on Tuesday He separated the waters from the waters. Then on Wednesday.......etc. No, it just names each 24 hour period as "the evening and the morning were the first day", etc. In Hebrew we find that Sunday is known as Yom Reeshone, or First Day, Monday is Yom Shaynee, or Second Day, Tuesday is Yom Shlee'shee or Third Day, Wednesday is Yom Revee'ee or Fourth Day, Thursday is Yom Khah'mee'ee or Fifth Day, Friday is Yom Ha'shee'shee or Sixth day, and Saturday is Shabbat or Rest. The days are from sundown to sundown, so the first day is actually sundown on what we call Saturday to sundown of what we call Sunday. Shabbat begins at sundown on what we call Friday. This is the day of rest. The Sabbath has never changed no matter what man tries to do to it. <>< ><> Nathele Calendars are secular Nathele even the names of the days come from pagan gods. Work six days and worship. JB Jb, you want proof that Saturday is the seventh day? Go look in a dictionary. Show me proof that Monday is the first day of the week.