ServingHim

Truth is a Person...Jesus Christ. He said, "I am the way, the truth and the life", John 14:6. Therefore, varying thoughts/opinions of what Truth is does NOT necessarily equal what Truth really is? One says this ... the other says that ... they BOTH say THEY are right. Which ONE is it? Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. John 17:11 Jesus and His Father were not differing...they were ONE in MIND, BODY, SPIRIT and TRUTH, perfectly united. So how can so many claim that they teach that ONE truth YET differ so much on many issues within the teachigns, all while thousands of others who claim the same thing. This has always intrigued me! For 'TRUTH IS ONE'.

2 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John, and led them up a high mountain apart by themselves; and he was transfigured before them, 3 and his garments became glistening, intensely white, as no fuller on earth could bleach them. 4 And there appeared to them Eli'jah with Moses; and they were talking to Jesus. 5 And Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is well that we are here; let us make three booths, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli'jah." 6 For he did not know what to say, for they were exceedingly afraid. 7 And a cloud overshadowed them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is my beloved Son; listen to him." 8 And suddenly looking around they no longer saw any one with them but Jesus only. Mark 9:2-8 Apparently then this must make your head spin, for Peter and John witnessed Moses and Eli'jah TALKING before them WITH Jesus. Jesus had already DIED, was BURIED, and then ROSE FROM THE DEAD. Obviously Moses and Eli'jah had been DEAD for centuries, but apparently they are VERY MUCH ALIVE AT THIS SCENE. Isn't that our HOPE as Christians? For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Phil 1:21 our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Tim 1:10 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 15:53-57 So you see, LadyC, Mary is NOT DEAD at all... in fact, she is VERY MUCH ALIVE. To deny this would be to deny the power of the Cross and Christ's redemption for us all!

Which brings us BACK to the original question of WHY Mary would appear to a 'shiite'? Because SHE LOVES ALL God's children as her own children (just as Christ loves ALL people...not just a select few). Remember ... For God shows no partiality (Romans 2:11) and God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4). John 19:26 is very clear that Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold, your mother" to St. John the Apostle. Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" but he said TO THE DISCIPLE ... ' behold YOUR MOTHER.' That is because Christ, at the Cross, gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose; Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother. Also, Rev. 12:17 further delves into the insight and meaning of John 19:26. The "woman's" (Mary's) offspring are those who follow Jesus. We, Christians, follow her Son, Christ; therefore, she is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ, our brother, our Savior. The master plan of God's covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

You are right...not EVERYTHING is what it appears. Remember, as Christians, we live by FAITH and NOT by SIGHT. Do you know how Mexico became a Christian country? Missionaries who first came to Mexico with the conquistadors had little success in the beginning. After nearly a generation, only a few hundred Native Mexicans had converted to the Christian faith. Whether they simply did not understand what the missionaries had to offer or whether they resented these people who made them slaves, Christianity was not popular among the native people. Then in 1531 miracles began to happen. Jesus' own mother appeared to humble Juan Diego. (Ever heard of the city SAN DIEGO? the city named after this humble man?) Juan Diego was born in 1474 in the calpulli or ward of Tlayacac in Cuauhtitlan, which was established in 1168 by Nahua tribesmen and conquered by the Aztec lord Axayacatl in 1467; and was located 20 kilometers (14 miles) north of Tenochtitlan (Mexico City). On December 9, 1531, a native Mexican named Juan Diego rose before dawn to walk fifteen miles to church in what is now Mexico City. Juan lived a simple life as a weaver, farmer, and laborer. That morning, as Juan passed Tepeyac Hill, he heard music and saw a glowing cloud encircled by a rainbow. A woman's voice called him to the top of the hill. There he saw a beautiful young woman dressed like an Aztec princess. She said she was the Virgin Mary and asked Juan to tell the bishop to build a church on that site. She said, "I vividly desire that a church be built on this site, so that in it I can be present and give my love, compassion, help, and defense, for I am your most devoted mother . . . to hear your laments and to remedy all your miseries, pains, and sufferings." The bishop was kind but skeptical. He asked Juan to bring proof of the Lady's identity. Before Juan could go back to the Lady, he found out his uncle was dying. Juan missed his meeting with the Lady because of his uncle's health condition. The Lady, however, met him on his path and told him that his uncle had been cured. She then told Juan to climb to the top of the hill where they first met. Juan was shocked to find flowers growing in the frozen soil. He gathered them in his cloak and took them at once to the bishop. Juan told the bishop what had happened and opened his cloak. The flowers that fell to the ground were Castilian roses (which were not grown in Mexico). But the bishop's eyes were on the glowing image of the Lady imprinted inside Juan's cloak. Soon after, a church was built on the site where our Lady appeared. The signs -- of the roses, of the uncle miraculously cured of a deadly illness, and especially of her beautiful image on Juan's mantle -- convinced the people there was something to be considered in Christianity (perhaps FAITH and HOPE). Within a short time, six million Native Mexicans had themselves baptized as Christians. Juan died on May 30, 1548, at the age of 74. God chose Mary to lead us to Jesus period! No matter what critics may say of the devotion of Mexicans (and Mexican descendants) to Mary (and what was done in Mexico), they owe their Christianity to HER influence. It is HISTORICAL FACT...one can 'believe' or not! If it were not for her, they would not know her Son, and so they are eternally grateful. An interesting note about Mary herself... Mary appeared to Juan Diego not as a European madonna but as a beautiful Aztec princess speaking to him in his own Aztec language. Talk about 'humility'. Why quickly discard her when she is a PART of WHO JESUS IS?

thank you steve, so shall we continue, even though LadyC opposes anything that might differ from her opinion?

apology accepted, but your words did speak very clearly of what you meant..after all, what comes out of the mouth is in the heart... Perhaps you should be careful how you speak to others...(Prov 13:3; James 1:26). are you this forum moderator, and if you are, then so be it. The conversation is over. However, if you are not, I don't think that you have ALL knowledge about this subject that I'd like to discuss. If you recall, LadyC, I have only been on THIS forum for 2 days, so it's a little bit presumptuous to think that I've read ALL that you've perhaps read/posted on this subject. Excuse me for irritating you in asking a question, and posting MY findings. Are they 'UNWORTHY' since they DIFFER from what YOU PERSONALLY believe??? Wonder if Jesus got so irritated with those who asked Him a question MORE than once about something. Hmmmm, don't think so. I pray you can be more PATIENT with those who differ from what YOU believe. Unless of course, YOU have ALL truth (which I can already know for sure that you don't based on how you respond). ok...so then you're not willing to discuss this with a NEW person on this board. And biblcally sound according to who? YOU? You're willling to schluff off people NOW who want to discuss an issue that may have been discuss a year ago with you? Do you NOT desire to converse at all about ANYTHING that has been discussed thus far. Amazing. If I recall, Jesus probably went OVER AND OVER again with His Apostles and disciples things that were 'difficult'. Don't you think? And secondly, NOT ALL that He did was WRITTEN in the Bible, so you can't rely SOLEY on the BIBLE for EVERYTHING, and IF you can, tell me WHY? (oh yea, that's probably another whole thread that you're gonna tell me to just do a 'search'). I can tell that SOME people on this forum have more than 4000 posts. Is it my understanding that you think that NEWCOMERS should just read for themselves trying to discipher through ALL this material looking for what they desire. NO THANKS. This is the MOST unwelcoming board of 'Christians' (which is questionable by just your uncharitable presence here - I'm sure there are others who might desire to welcome me and talk to me) I've ever visited. IF YOU represent what a Christian is all about, then you're not giving an inviting example to a non-believer of what a Christian has (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control). I see none of those in your FIRST encounter with ME, a newcomer on this board. Thank GOD I am a deep, devout believer with a history that you'll probably never get to hear...so you don't rock my world in the least. LadyC, I BELIEVE that SHE WAS a perpetual Virgin, and according to historical Tradition AND even some DEVOUT believers (such as Martin Luther whom LED the entire PROTESTANT reform) I believe that there IS evidence that SHE MAY HAVE. As for my OPINION of whether she was or not makes no difference. TRUTH does NOT DEPEND on OPINION. Why should I SHAKE MY BELIEF? That is again very presumptuous and PRIDEFUL that anyone who believes something DIFFERENT than you AUTOMATICALLY has to change THEIR beliefs. I feel sorry for you. I was wondering anyway WHY you are so afraid of this POSSIBILITY? Do you think that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE that she COULD HAVE BEEN? It must threaten something about your or your beliefs? Ignorance of Scripture is Ignorance of Christ, I've heard it said by a great historical figure, I think Augustine. Do you EVER read HISTORY? or do you rely on 21st century ONLY teachings of our Lord? I pray not. Even the Israelites knew their God by the HISTORY of their people! As far as I'm concerned, I don't need to discuss this with anyone who is closed minded and judgemental....you are NOT the person I'd like to discuss with, so perhaps it would be better if I DO ask questions on this forum, you should REFRAIN from answering me.

first of all, LadyC, you have NO idea who I am or what I am about. You so QUICKLY judge me as 'unworthy' and 'discardable' because I ask questions that you apparently don't have the time to share YOUR insights. In addition you make unwarranted assaults that I am NOT interested in finding truth. Is THIS how Jesus would have spoken to someone desiring to know more? or honestly asking questions? You seem a bit high and mighty, and since WHEN did ANY forum have ALL TRUTH?

aren't you a little testy :x:

I'd love to hear why it's nonsense...if you'd like to start a new thread. Oh, by the way, did you know that Martin Luther believed that Mary was a virgin til she died...apparently HE didn't think it was nonsense. Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . "brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39) Apparently John Calvin and Ulrich Zwingli shared Martin Luther's same view on Mary and her ever-virgin state. Just some research I've done on the subject because I used to feel the same way as you...

thank you for clarifying...would you mind refering to which scriptures point this fact out...as to her actual daughters, AND her actual sons, besides Jesus? If you want to start a new thread, that would be great...otherwise, just here would be great.

where does the Bible specifically say that Mary and Joseph had other children together?

Huh? Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh. 2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb. 1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For anyone to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible. 1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets. Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant. Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh. Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus. Hence, the 'possibility' of her Apparitions. Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months. Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries, and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written. Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ. Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates that Mary is the Mother of all Christians. Rev. 12:2 - Some say that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus. Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ. Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ. Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ. Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures. Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically. Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail. Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.