AmariYah

O.K. then... According to Yod- if I am a citizen of Iraq or Palastine or North Korea then I should submit to and willingly serve my ruler because he was placed into his position of power by God. Becuase of your interpretation of that scripture Yod you would have to submit to your "leader" even if it turned out that he was in fact the anit-Christ. As for me I personally mistrusted and disliked Clinton and Bush senior- however being a Christian believer I have in fact prayed for them all including G. W. jr- However I do not submit to them when I perceive that they are going contrary to the clear revealtion of God's word. Nor am I afraid as an American to discuss and debate my perspectives of any of our countries elected or un-elected officials. (as the case may be!) I can understand how some would prefer to look at some of my opinions as "cursing" or "speaking evil" of our public servants but such is not the case. If I were to point out specific facts and supply quotes to back up said facts about a public servant, if this does not put that individual in a positive light then of coarse those who support him are simply going to cry foul and choose not to acknowledge any of the facts and quotes. Such is most certainly the case with George W. and his greedy and war mongering Administration. Now, if I said that the Bush Admin was greedy and war mongering yet there were no facts to indicate these statements then I could see how one might call it cursing or speaking evil- but since there is ample evidence to show the excessive greed and war mongering attitude of the Bush Admin. THEN IT IS MERELY POINTING OUT WHAT IS ALREADY IN EXISTENCE, (These things are already history!) BUT MANY PEOPLE KEEP INSISTING THAT THE EMPEROR REALLY DOES HAVE FINE CLOTHES ON/ But in reality he is stark naked.

No need to descredit what you are saying Super-Jew! From my perspective your words speak for themselves... From what I am reading in the last few posts you are simply making self righteous attacks on Steff without even knowing anything about his personal day to day life! Nothing more/ nothing less... And you are religiously trying to use the scriptures to tear down a brother perhaps becasue you disagree with his perspective on these things we are discussing. Don't know about anyone else- but that is what it looks like to me- and I am ceertain that this is not a form of "love one another"!

OUCH! Now it looks to me like Super Jew is playing the Pharisee? What will it come to next? Perhaps we here in American will be forced to embrace a certian form of government or philosophy and/ or be pushed into a specific type of economic and political mindset- just like we have doing to so many others around the world! & if we fail to fit into the box created by our "superiors" for us we will become "collateral damage" like so many other unique indivduals who have been massacred for being different! I don't know about any of you- but that is the feeling I get when I see the incredible arrogance of American Christians here at Worthy.

SORRY FOLKS- NO MATTER HOW YOU CUT AND SLICE IT- HASH AND RE-HASH IT THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS!!! Particularly when the world was lies to about the reason for these two wars "on terrorism". 2 questions: 1. What do you think even makes the U.S. Government qualified to be the moral policemen for the rest of the world? 2. Where did the U.S. Govt. get the authority to (moral and spiritual authority) to intervene in the affaris of other countries and to attempt to tell them how they should conduct their affairs? Is it simply because we are the biggest baddest Super-power in the world? MIGHT DOES NOT MAKE RIGHT MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS!

First I will admit that I have not read every post in this thread so if this has been brought up already then I apologize... But What is the purpose of Jesus Christ our Lord-? To destroy the work of the Devil! What we find in the Purpose Driven Church is no mention of the devil or how we do battle with the enemy. Therefore it does kind of remind me of a "seeker sensitive" type of teaching. Without teaching that the church must continue the purpose of Jesus Christ- to destroy the work of the devil, we are then just playing church and perpetuating the corporate modern church business. Rick warrens book completely avoids the topic of the devil and spiritual warfare- therefore it comes across to many Christians as merely a "feel good" gospel. Now, having said that- I think that there are some goode things in the book- & I really enjoyed the 40 days of purpose- The purpose driven life. It was certainly not complete but I believe that it was a good and useful work inspired by the Lord. (I think that the Purpose Driven Church may perhaps have been written from the perspective of a professional minister who perhaps is too engulfed in the modern corporate business model for church which cannot be found in the Holy Bible!)

Just think about it! The Federal government of the United States quite often ignores even our own laws and regulations- not to mention the fact that the U.S. Govt. considers themselves to be above the international laws such as the Geneva Convention among others. We are most definitely a "super-power" and without much research it is easy to verify that we do not even keep our own laws as a country much less the laws of God. Yes, alas- as a country we are lawless! (This is not a tough one to see IMO)

So far more than 800 American soldiers have died in Bush Administrations ongoing war in Iraq. There is also an estimated 10,000+ Iraqi's killed as well, mostly innocent civilians. And many thousands crippled, maimed and permanently disfigured. WHY? Because, Bush & co. said, Saddam Hussein posed a "mortal threat" that we had to "pre-empt" before "mushroom clouds" rose over our country. Well no matter how you try to hash and re-hash the statements of our countries leaders, it is now clear beyond the shadow of a doubt that we were flat out intentionally lied to! (The many many proofs that he did lie several times have been provided in a couple of different threads here at WorthyBoards. Sorry these cannot all be written off as flawed intelligence- that is a very weak argument for a country that spends HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS on intel and one that can use satellites to view even the finest details on precise locations world wide.) And the end result of these series of lies is that many thousands have needlessly died and been permanently handicapped. Now the Bush Administrations chief weapons inspector, David Kay, says there were no such WMD, and the Army's own War College says the invasion "was a war-of-choice" not of necessity. It is now obvious that our forked tongue leaders did in fact know this all along. All of the lies and double talk was merely a smoke-screen to divert the public's attention from the awful truth. Below are the exact words the Bush Administration used to persuade us to approve of the shedding of innocent blood; George Bush: "There is no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to posess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." Dick Cheney: "There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." Donald Rumsfeld: "We know where they (WMD) are." Colin Powell: "Leaving Saddam Hussein in posession of weapons of mass destruction for a few more months or years is not an option." (I know, I know the new story is that Saddam quickly exported all of these WMD to surrounding countries. Remember the precise and exacting satellite imaging that we were talking about? If this were true we would most certainly have known about it while it was happening. Also, you can be sure that we have undercover operatives in all of the surrounding countries as well as in Iraq before the war.) So thanks to Pres. Bush and his followers we as a country have lowered ourselves to Saddam's own abysmal status of MASS MURDERER. Although Bush and his cronies may see these many thousands of people merely as pawns and "collateral damage", their blood is on his hands! Now it is certain that Pres. George W. Bush and his friends are in fact the very same kind of people as Saddam Hussein. So where will this war regeim go next??? Yet to ad insult to injury, many Americans (And Christians) actually bought the Bush Administrations lies hook, line and sinker, and they not only applaud his evil actions and brutal unnecessary bloodshed, but they claim that he was led by God. Have we as a country and a people grown so cold hearted, shallow minded and petty in our culture, that we cheer at the shedding of innocent blood. And we try to then justify it as if the end justifies the means

Friday, September 27, 2002 OPEN LETTER THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH THE WHITE HOUSE 1600 PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE NW WASHINGTON DC 20500 Dear Sir: Re: The National Security Strategy of the United States of America September 2002 (NSS USA) I have the greatest respect for the American people who have effectively championed freedom and democracy in the 20th century with their wallets and with their blood. Nonetheless the current security strategy causes concern. I The themes of the NSS USA : champion human dignity, strengthen alliances, defuse regional conflicts, prevent WMD, ignite the global economy, expand development, forge global powers co-operation, transform America?s security and "?rid the world of evil." (page 5) are almost messianic in scope. II Your working definition of "rule of law" is limited to enforcing business deals or developing commerce in foreign countries. The following passages indicate your working definition of rule of law: page 10 "By tolerating ethnic minorities, respecting the rule of law, and accepting open markets, Indonesia?"; page 17 "rule of law and intolerance of corruption so that people are confident that they will be able to enjoy the fruits of their economic endeavours;"; page 19 "Trade policies can help developing countries strengthen property rights, competition, the rule of law, investments,?" page 19 "Commerce depends on the rule of law; international trade depends on enforceable agreements."; page 22 "We will continue to press the multilateral development banks to focus on activities that increase economic productivity, such as improvements in education, health, rule of law, and private sector development."; page 28 "The power of market principles and the WTO?s requirements for transparency and accountability will advance openness and the rule of law in China to help establish basic protections for commerce and for citizens." This definition of rule of law is limited and misleading. III Black?s Law Dictionary defines rule of law as follows: "A legal principle, of general application, sanctioned by the recognition of authorities?The rule of law, sometimes call ?the supremacy of law? provides that decisions should be made by the application of known principles or laws without the intervention of discretion in their application." Bluntly speaking, from the time of the Magna Carta in the 13th century no person, no royalty, no government, no president and no superpower have been above the law. "When the representatives of the young republic of the United States of America gathered to draft a constitution, they turned to the legal system they knew and admired ? English common law as evolved from Magna Carta" www.archives.gov The Magna Carta states: "No freeman shall be taken, imprisoned,..or in any other way destroyed?except by the lawful judgment of his peers, or by the law of the land. To no one will we sell, to none will we deny or delay, right or justice." Yet it appears that your administration will administer justice by specially trained forces after an assessment by shadowy Intelligence types (See pages 15, 16, 25). There are basically two kinds of justice systems, those that administer justice by rule of law and those that administer justice by force. The latter can result from a democracy that descends into oligarchy and tyranny when a national leader emerges, at a time of crisis, who learns to push the buttons of voters. Such a tyrant engages in the appearance of democracy but orders his troops to press the assault because his opponents appear defenceless and he expects to obtain the approval of voters afterward. That is why so many Americans are vigilant about deception and abuses of power in their great freedom loving democracy. It appears that your strategy does not follow the rule of law. On Tuesday, August 13, 2002 in the National Post Dr. Kissinger stated: "The new approach is revolutionary. Regime change as a goal for military intervention challenges the international system established by the 1648 Treaty of Westphalia, which, after the carnage of the religious wars, established the principle of nonintervention in the domestic affairs of other states. And the notion of justified pre-emption runs counter to modern international law, which sanctions the use of force in self-defence only against actual, not potential, threats." Both the Calgary Herald, September 22, 2002 and the National Post, September 24, 2002 report that US military planners indicate the current plan is to swiftly decapitate Saddam Hussein and his regime using leaner and highly mobile forces. We don?t want to decapitate the leaders of other nations because we don?t want other nations to decapitate our leaders. Your strategy will result in the deaths of American servicemen, opponents, government officials, terrorists, suspected terrorists, bystanders, allied soldiers, and other men, women and children on a scale which we cannot accurately predict. "It has taken almost a decade for us to comprehend the true nature of this new threat" you state at page 15 of the NSS USA. That is a little slow. After 10 years and billions of dollars of intelligence gathering , there is no published evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Saddam Hussein is a terrorist threat to the USA. That is the standard of the rule of law. Black?s Law Dictionary uses a Model Penal Code definition of terrorist threat. "A person is guilty of a felony if he threatens to commit any crime of violence with purpose to terrorize another or to cause evacuation of a building, place of assembly, or facility of public transportation, or otherwise to cause serious public inconvenience, or in reckless disregard of the risk of causing such terror or inconvenience." The CIA World Factbook virtually admits that the terrorist organization that mounted the World Trade attack was initially funded and trained by the CIA. It states: "Afghanistan was invaded and occupied by the Soviet Union in 1979. The USSR was forced to withdraw 10 years later by anti-communist mujahidin forces supplied and trained by the US, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and others?" The media has been unanimous that Bin Laden was one of these forces. Why did the CIA train and fund the mujahidin? Were the activities of the CIA lawful? Were the activities of the CIA approved by the Senate and Congress? Were the activities tested by the judiciary? One of the most recent global expressions of the rule of law is the International Criminal Court ? the ICC. One of the early advocates of the ICC is currently with the Supreme Court of Canada ? Justice Louise Arbour. In 1998 about 120 nations voted to create a permanent International Criminal Court to try war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. Seven nations opposed the treaty including Iraq, China, Israel, United States. We can understand why the leaders of Iraq, China and Israel oppose the treaty but why the United States. Kofi Annan, United Nations Secretary General has commented upon the ICC: "In the prospect of the international criminal court lies the promise of universal justice. We ask you? to ensure that no ruler, no State, no junta, and no army anywhere can abuse human rights with impunity. Only then will the innocents of distant wars and conflicts know that they, too, may sleep under the cover of justice; that they, too, have rights, and that those who violate those rights will be punished." This court and related courts should apply to all nations and the leaders of all nations, including Iraq, Israel, China and America. Mr. President you alarm me when want American servicemen, CIA, and specially trained forces to be above the law. You state at page 31: "We will take actions necessary to ensure that our efforts to meet global security commitments and protect Americans are not impaired by the potential for investigations, inquiry, or prosecution by the International Criminal Court (ICC), whose jurisdiction does not extend to Americans and which we do not accept. We will work together with other nations to avoid complications in our military operations and cooperation, through such mechanisms as multilateral and bilateral agreements that will protect U.S. nationals from the ICC." There is no question that your strategy circumvents the rule of law as it has developed for hundreds of years. IV NSS USA talks peace, peace, peace but it means war, war, war! There is reference to American trade disputes with the European Union, Canada, and Mexico at page 19. This probably understates the disputes in which the tribunals have been ruling against your administration and your administration has not been complying with the rulings. Historically trade disputes have been real good causes of war. A reference to a disagreement with Israel is at page 10. Significant American disagreements with Russia, India and China are lightly described at pages 27 and 28. American acts of war or war are threatened at pages 5, 6, 14, 15, 16, 25, 29, 30, and 31. Can your administration fight the whole world all at once? Sir Edward Heath signed the Treaty of Accession in January 1972 whereby the United Kingdom joined Europe. This single act virtually ended at least 2,000 years of wars between the Germans, French, Spanish, English, Italian and other European tribes. In THE COURSE OF MY LIFE ? THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF EDWARD HEATH, Sir Edward comments, at page 201: "The European Coal and Steel Community, established under the Treaty of Paris on 18 April 1951, was never an end in itself. Its primary purpose was political, to prevent France and Germany from ever fighting each other again and so to preserve peace in our own continent. Its instruments were economic, to control the materials required for the production of weaponry. As Robert Schuman had recognised, however, this was only an intermediate objective along the road to creating an ?ever closer union? in Europe" The development of the European Union is a working model, not necessarily the only model, but a working model of how disparate nations with different languages can share sovereignty for the purpose of achieving peace and prosperity. This working model can be applied to the entire globe. However, the impetus for the present European Union was two terrible, two global wars. Just as it took two global wars to develop the European Union, so too it is reasonable, given a history of warfare from the beginning of civilization about 6,000 years ago, that the nations of the world will not share sovereignty on the scale of the European Union until there is another great war. WAR: MACROQUANTITATIVE RESEARCH BY J. M. G. VAN DER DENNEN TABLE 6: WAR FORECASTING DATA states: "From (historical) data, one could easily hypothesize the following rule: for each interval in which the human population doubles, there occur wars in which ten times as many people are killed as are killed by wars in the previous such interval." The European Union, WTO, and many, many global treaties and tribunals which resolve disputes, are one of the major reasons that we have not had a global war for some 50 years. Mr. President, the NSS USA flies in the face of the rule of law as expressed in United Nations, the Europan Union, the WTO, the ICC, and other peacemaking efforts, treaties and institutions that have developed in the decades following the second world war. Commenting upon the Cuban Missile Crisis, Kruschev observed that any fool can start a war that no wise man can stop. It seems more likely than not, that your NSS USA strategy will ignite the scale of war that is all too common during 6,000 years of history. That is my greatest concern with the NSS USA. I have the greatest respect for the Office of the President of the United States of America and I am grateful for this opportunity to exercise my right to freedom of speech which America has preserved with their wallets and with their blood. Comment: above open letter distributed a few days after the President published his US NSS 2002 and is also found at the website www.foolishthoughts.com

Well that question is way off the topic! But at this point "We The People" do not even have a choice as to whom will be the next President. Both Bush and Kerry are the same kind of people. Hey how about for a change we find someone who is honest and has integrity and actual compassion for others. not simply dishonest greedy lawyers and corrupt politicians?

QUOTE Giving to the local church, to missions etc has absolutely nothing whatosever to do with Biblical tithing. QUOTE The "principal" or doctrine of "tithing" which is commonly taught and accpeted in a majority of Christian churches today scarcely even resembles the true tithing of the Old testament these sentences are mutually exclusive. No, there is nothing exclusive about the sentences above. They are essentially saying the same thing. Christian giving in it's various forms has nothing to do with Biblical tithing because the doctrine of "tithing" scarcely even resembles true Old Testament tithing! In other words, the biblical principle of tithing is not what is being taught in most christian churches. There are a LOT of things being taught in the church since the early church fathers which are not biblical. However, that doesn't mean that the basic biblical principle of tithing is done away with. You see... Here is where you want to compromise. First of all there really is not any "basic prinicipal of tithing" as you worded it. That is the beginning of man doctrine- to say that it is just a basic Bible principal. Biblical tithing was not a basic principal, it was in fact somewhat complex in all of it's various aspects. Biblical tithing was never simply giving 10% of one's entire income, it actually amounted to I think about 23%- however we must keep in mind that it was only on the INCREASE. Not everyone experienced an increase each year. Point being that Biblical tithing is not even relevant in our modern era for many diverse reasons- most of which have been covered in this thread. It is the folks who say that there is some mystical "principal of tithing" who are perpetuating a false doctrine which robs God's people and contradicts the Holy Scriptures. Now, I am not saying that you are among those "folks" who perpetuate this doctrine of men! Just making a point.

well of coarse Jesus did endorse not only the "principal" of tithing to those who were still living under the Old Covenant, but he actually endorsed real Biblical tithing. Why? Because the Jew was required to at least try to keep the whole of the law- and that was essentially a mandatory form of taxation in ancient Jewish histroy. And yes, according to the Bible it is quite easy to say that Biblical tithing has been done away with. And the reasons why it is so easy to say this with confidance has been made abundantly clear in the previus posts to this thread. Namely- No Levites- No Temple- No storehouse- No increase of flocks and fields = no Biblical tithing!!! Once again let's try not to confuse generous Christian giving with Old Testament tithing. Giving to the local church, to missions etc has absolutely nothing whatosever to do with Biblical tithing. The "principal" or doctrine of "tithing" which is commonly taught and accpeted in a majority of Christian churches today scarcely even resembles the true tithing of the Old testament. So let's see if we can make a clear distinction between this doctrine of men and the teachings and history from the word of God. your brother in Christ Jesus! Amariah

Quote from Yod: But here is a quote from Jesus on the subject from Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others You seem to be implying with your emphasis- that because Jesus said of Pharisees who were under the Old Covenant Law of Moses, "without neglecting the others"- that we who have a new and better Covenant should also practice tithing. Is that the point you were trying to make? Just trying to clarify here...?

The official line of the Powers that Be is that corporations simply do what their customers want. It's nothing but "supply and demand" action they tell us, the glorious free market in excelcius deo. Nice theory, but reality is another story. For example, thanks to insider tapes from Enron that George Bush's justice department was recently forced to release, we can hear the free-market thoughts of one Enron trader talking to another about all the money they "stole from those poor grandmothers in California" by manipulationg the energy market in 2001: "Yeah, Grandma Millie, man. But she's the one who couldn't figure out how to [blankety-blank] vote on the butterfly ballot. Yeah, now she want's her [blankety-blank] money back for all the power youv'e charged right up her [blankety-blank] for [blankety-blank] 250 dollars a megawatt hour." Enron executives used market manipulation techniques that they colorfully dubbed "sidewinder", "Russian roulette", "ping pong" and "donkey punch." Charming, huh? Other Enroners brag on the tapes about cheating still more "poor grandmothers," about shutting down an Enron controlled power plant to drive up electricity prices, and about how "awesome" it will be if Enrons honcho, Kenny-boy Lay, is chosen by his pal Bush to be the new energy secretary. Alas for Kenny Boy, Enron was crashing and he was too politically hot to get the energy job, but George W. still helped him out. For the first several months of this administration, he delibrately forestalled demands to impose price controls to stop Enrons gouging of West Coast consumers. In that time, the corporation essentially stole BILLIONS of dollars from it's unsuspecting customers- and Kenny Boy himself was able to bail out with a $100 million golden parachute. All with the help and support of his personal buddy George Bush. Corporations today don't operate in a "free-market" -- they operate in a greed market aided and abetted by the political puppets they put in office!

Well amen to that- if anything we really need to learn to love one another more than anything else!

Very good point Snowdoove! Most of the churches that teach "tithing" somehow manage to leave out the part of providing for the widows, orphans, homeless and poor amongst us. All of these things were part of what the Biblical tithes which were brought to the Storehouse were actually used for! Interseting how modern believers simply pick and choose which parts of the Bible they want to make a doctrine out of and which parts of the very same teaching that they want to ignore. :t:

I can't help but wonder if some of you even bothered to read the posts in this thread? Or do you simply not agree with the assessment that IT IS QUITE IMPOSSIBLE TO PRACTICE TITHING ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE UNLESS YOU ARE GIVING ON THE INCREASE OF THE PRODUCE OF YOUR FLOCKS AND FIELDS AND BRINGING IT ONLY TO THE LEVITES AT THE STOREHOUSE IN THE TEMPLE! Perhaps if you want to change the words and the context of the actual scriptures then you could try to justify a new doctrine called "tithing" but it still would not conform to what is clearly taught about tithing in the Holy Bible. You cannot simply change the Biblical meaning of tithes- which was a tenth of the INCREASE of flocks and fields/ to now mean 10% of all money earned. Nor can you change the Levites and substitute them for preachers and pastors, Nor can you substitute the church organization or building for the Temple or the storehouse... That would be a careless and inaccurate use of the Holy Scriptures which pattern of thinking would allow someone to make the Bible say just about anything they desired! Malachi 3:8-10 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. #1. The whole book of Malachi was written primarily to the priests and sons of Jacob who were not tithing or giving on the portion that they received. (God is speaking to the priests!) #2 A born again Christian who is washed in the blood of Yeshua simply cannot be cursed- since, "He became a curse for us" unless we put our selves under a false teaching. Jesus our Lord paid the full price! #3 God's house at that time was the Temple which had an actual storehouse for real food-stuffs including meat! There is no Temple now except the actual body of each believer, and therefore no strorehouse to bring the tithes and offerings! #4 God has already opened up the windows of heaven and poured out such a great blessing- The infinte love of Christ Jesus, i.e. the undeserved kindness and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ!!!, that there shall not be room enough to receive it! This my frined is a free gift from God AND THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO TO EARN IT- NO AMOUNT OF GIVING OR SACRIFICE OR MODERN "TITHING" WILL BRING ANY GREATER BLESSING THAN JESUS HAS ALREADY PROVIDED! If any of you believe that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was sufficient for your salvation- enough for your healing and deliverance yet just not quite enough for your provision and prosperity- then you have either been lied to or have simply not read your Bible! There is nothing you can do to earn more of God's favor. Did you ever hear the scripture verse; "he became poor that you might be rich" ? Jesus paid the full price and even became poor and destitute that you might have abundant provision and blessing from God. How Can I Not give Back to what is His in The First place? Well not all of the teaching in our modern churches is in error- Praise God for that! There is simply no way that we can out give God! The New Testament is quite clear about how we as Christians living under the new and better Covenant are to give. We are to give cheerfully, and generously- we are to give freely as we purpose in our own hearts and not under compulsion. And just as if we were farmers- when we sow sparingly we will reap a smaller harvest- BUT WE ARE STILL BLESSED AND NOT CURSED! & when we sow abundantly then we will accordingly reap an abundant harvest- YET WE ARE NO MORE BLESSED OR CURSED THAN OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS WHO SOWED LESS SEED THAN WE DID, except that we may perhaps have more $$$ than they do- assuming that we sowed $$$.! If we believe and promote these false doctrines then we are saying that Jesus Christ did not pay the full price. We are saying that His precious blood was not enough and although he provided for our salvation/ deliverance/ healing/ & peace... Nevertheless we must still exercise certain WORKS i.e. "tithing" to lay hold of the blessings of the Father and at the same time to avoid His terrible curse! May I just say this quite plainly- THAT IS A FALSE AND DAMNABLE TEACHING AND IS A DOCTRINE OF MAN AND NOT OF GOD. Your brother in Christ Jesus ~ The All Sufficient One! Amariah

I'm not really arguing persay, but I would like someone's opinion about certain scriptures. First off, when NT verses refer to scripture they are referring to the Old Testament. So when 2Timothy 3:16 says that All scripture is given by inspiration of God, or when Hebrews4:12 says that the Word of God is living and powerfull, we know that at that time there was no NT nor any canon of scripture as we have it today. There fore they were referring to the OT. That being said, I fear shirking off scriptures. I am wondering what do you do with Malachi. If it's no longer true or accurate, then do we disregard that portion of scripture? I mean, it's implications are direct, not vague. So what do we do with it? Scratch it out of our bibles as not for us today? It's a question that nags me in regard to tithing or not tithing. No of coarse we do not need to scratch out any scriptures. It's all about context, and to whom the word of God was originally given... In the case of the book of Malachi this whole book was written to the sons of Jacob- primarily the priests and Levites. These people were living under the Old Covenant and were not only subject to the Laws of Moses but they were also the leaders who were suppose to be examples to the Nation of Israel. When you read throughout the Old Testament and specifically in Deuteronomy you will see that there are indeed many blessing and cursings that go hand in hand with keeping or not keeping the Law. This of coarse included tithing. (Read the first post to get a perspective on exactly who God was rebuking in Malachi 3.) This precious book of Malachi still serves as an example and a type and shadow to those of us living in the New Covenant- but we are by no means subject to it because we have A NEW AND BETTER COVENANT! Something I pointed out in a previous post which is extremely important here is that Biblical tithing scarecely even resembles the doctrine of "tithing" commonly taught today. And without a Temple with a storehouse and without Levites it is quite impossible to actually practice tithing according to the Bible in our society today! Also Proverbs says something very interesting about tithing. (Pro 3:7) Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear Jehovah and depart from evil. (Pro 3:8) Healing shall be to your navel and marrow to your bones. (Pro 3:9) Honor Jehovah with your substance, and with the firstfruits of all your increase; I think we agree that proverbs is a timeless book of wisdom, correct? It intimates tithing as fearing God and being wise in God's eyes, while not tithing is being wise in our eyes, and not fearing God. Is that right? I don't want to argue or say who's right or wrong, but before I drop tithing, something has to be done with these scriptures to reconcile them with not tithing any longer. I agree that tithing is really pushed to heavily, and especially with the TV people, to whom tithes should probably not go to. What is someone's opinion on these verses. Thanks, Jason Now if a believer is led of the Spirit to give in a like manner to Abraham then let him obey the voice of God. But let's keep a perspective here on exactly when and how the patriarch practiced tithing. according to the Bible Abraham gave only once that we know of- and that particular time he did not give even one penny out of his own great wealth! Look at the verses of scripture again- Abraham gave one tenth OUT OF THE SPOILS OF WAR! In other words he gave one tenth of the belongings of the Sodomites which Abraham and his men had just recovered. NOW THERE IS A TRUTH OF THE HOLY BIBLE THAT YOU NEVER HEAR ANY PREACHERS GIVE A COMPLETE AND HONEST SERMON ON! "Folks according to the Bible you should tithe like Abraham did to the servant of the Most High God- just bring your 10% offering once in your lifetime, when and if you ever help someone recover lost or stolen property!" This is the honest and correct exhortation based upon the Holy Scriptures.

Amen to that post Steff! The land of the FREE? And the home of the brave! I hope and pray that our beloeved country does not continue down this road of tyranny- because if it does we will wake up one day and find that we now live in an Orwellian Amerika.

I certainly believe that the concept of tithes and offerings has been distorted and tainted by the "prosperity" message often preached today (and by greedy ministers). HOWEVER, I think what you are teaching here is perhaps no better. So, you think that teaching the truth about what the Bible actualy says about tithing and giving- is no better than teaching man made doctrines? Why? Because we are blessed people. God has blessed us so that we can be a blessing. Giving a percentage of your income is a discipline that teaches us dependence on God. I agree that the amount should not be pre-set, but that each person should give according to how the Holy Spirit leads. But lets not forget, if we sow sparingly, we reap sparingly. You see what you said here is where we are in perfect agreement Tess! 2 Corinthians 9:6-8 6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. And you will note that I myself quoted this scripture from the very beginning... You may not find the mandate to tithe in the New Testament, but what you will find is believers living under the covenant of Grace. Something my brother has said is, "If they could give under the law, I can certainly give under grace". The ppl in the old covenant were required to give and make sacrifices. We, on the other hand, have the blessing of giving freely ..and should do so REGULARLY out of a heart of gratitude. We have so much more reason to give than they did in the Old Covenant...we have been set free!. Romans 12: 1 tells us we should be living sacrifices. Every part of our lives (including finances) should be lived as an offering back to God. Here we are still in perfect agreement Tess. The problem I have with this type of topic/teaching (that tithing is unbiblical), is that it seems to come from a spirit of ungratefulness. I'm not saying you're ungrateful, but it appears that some are searching for loopholes to free them from something they see as an obligation, rather than an honor. Not only that, but it also seems to possess an attitude of "what i have is mine to keep if i choose". Um, no. Everything you have belongs to God in the first place, not you. Here is where you might be missing the point. As far as I know no one is feeling ungrateful towards God here- & everyone I know who has discovered this truth about Biblical giving is certainly not looking for any loop- holes. Quite the contrary- having been set free from false teaching and false doctrine, they are not only more free to prosper but also free to give cheerfully and generously. Believe me most people who feel like someone is trying to defraud them or coerce them out of their $$$ will actually hold on to it even tighter. Once they are taught the truth- they do not feel compelled- and are more able to give freely and liberally. (Yes, it can take some time if one has been held captive under a false doctrine for many years. But the end result of being set free in Christ Jesus according to sound doctrine from God's unadulterated word is always an abundance of blessing to all concerned.) In my experience with God's word, it is always a good and positive thing to #1 stay in God's word- #2 do not water His word down- #3 Do not add anything to His word. the point that is being made which you might be missing is: that "tithing" as it is commonly taught in Christian churches today is a doctrine of man and not of God. All I am doing here is exposing it for what it is- a perversion of God's word which robs many people of God's freedom concerning New Testament Christian giving. Also, according to Scripture (Galatians 3 to be exact) those of us in Christ are heirs to the promises God made to Abraham. What were those promises? That we would be blessed ... so that we could BE a blessing. There's no getting around the fact that we are called to give and to give abundantly. This is all very good Tess- but unfortunately there are literally thousands of preachers who teach a doctrine which says you will be cursed with a curse if you do not bring exactly 10% of your gross paycheck to me. Or they teach that you will have a special blessing and favor when and if you bring your $$$ to me since I am God's man of the hour. It is a good and positive thing to expose this as a false teaching and this message has the potnetial to set many people free from artificial bondage and condemnation which they really shouldn't be carrying if they are born again. Therefore, I see no point in wasting time and energy trying to disprove tithes and offerings. In my opinion, time could be better spent reminding ppl how blessed they are and how they can use that blessing. I'm concerned that teaching ppl that tithing is "unbiblical" sends the message that "you don't owe God" ...when in all reality, we owe Him absolutely everything. Truth be told, we should be willing to lay everything down...not just 10% but 100% ... none of it really belongs to us anyway. Well this is just a matter of opinion... Many Christians also see not point in showing Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and other pseudo Christian cults the error of their ways- But thank God that some believers are called to this apologetic ministry. The effective teacher or preacher who shows that "tithing" is un-biblical will also teach simultaneously about what the Bible is really saying about Christian giving- So there shouldn't be any danger of believers not knowing that they are incredibly blessed and that they do indeed owe everything to Jesus. May you be exceedingly blessed and prospered in all that you do for the Lord Tess, Amariah

Let's not miss the point! Yes tithing is in the Bible- However it is quite impossible to tithe according the Bible today... To actually practice Biblical tithing you would first of all be giving not merely 10% but closer to about 23%. Why? Because if you read the Old Testament closely there was more than just one tithe. The tithe consisted primarily of the produce of flocks and fields and then it was only given on the INCREASE. Then the tithes were brought to the STOREHOUSE at the TEMPLE. As pointed out earlier only the LEVITES were authorized to collect and distribute the tithes. So.... since there is no Temple and therefore no storehouse iand certainly no living Levites- it becomes very clear that it is absolutely impossible to practice tithing according to the Bible! Under the Old Covenant you would not bring the first tenth as some would have you believe- Why? Because, when a farmer went into the field he might have to sow 2 bags of grain to reap a harvest of 40 bags- The first thing that the farmer does is to deduct the 2 bags which he sowed and believe it or not but he can also deduct a couple of bags which he needed to feed his family with- So then he would have 36 bags of grain and the last tenth, which would be 3.6 bags was then taken to the Levites at the Temple. The same is true of livestock- Let's say for example that the herd has 100 sheep at the beginning of the year then they have say 25 lambs- well during the course of the year the shepherd may actually butcher 5 of them to feed his family- so at the end of the year his increase is actually only 20 lambs, so his tithe would be only 2. What is taught and practiced in a majority of Christian churches does not even resemble Bible based tithing and is a doctrine of man not God. Now does this mean that you don't have to give? Of coarse not! We can give generously as the Holy Spirit guides us not under the compulsion of some self proclaimed men of God. Now if God speaks to your heart telling you to give 10% of your income that is fine- But I would seriously doubt that you are hearing from the God of heaven if you believe that you always hear that you are suppose to give just 10% month after month and year after year. What is even more important is to listen to God as to exactly where you are to give! Yes, support your home church and take care of your leaders- but do not forget your obligation to the homeless & the widows, and the orphans and the poor etc...

"But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. SO LET EACH ONE GIVE AS HE PURPOSES IN HIS HEART, NOT GRUDGINGLY OR OF NECESSITY: for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work." 2 Corinthians 9:6-8 Please note the underlined portion of the above scripture... "each one give as he purposes", in other words not a pre-determined or set percentage which would take away the freedom to decide in your own heart. "Not grudgingly or of necessity", another version says "not under compulsion". Unfortunately a majority of preachers who teach this doctrine make giving 10% a law and through various methods of coercion they compel this "tithe" of born again Christians, thus attempting to place believers back under the law. (Read Galatians about that...) I just want to point out that these 2 very different types and models for giving are completely oppoiste and are in fact mutually exclusive! One simply cannot give freely as he has purposed or decided in his own heart while at the same time giving 10% of his gross pay-check! Also envision if you will an individual who is exceptionally blessed by God- He/she may have a heart to give very generously into God's work- in fact they make so much money that they could easily live on only 5-10% of their total income. However let's just say that their church teaches very strongly that they must "tithe". So being caught in a limiting doctrine they simply give the required 10% and perhaps some other generous offerings because that is what they have been taught- But, they missed God's real intention for their wealth which was to give perhaps 80-90% of their income into the gospel.Or how about an average believer who really want's to give to God- Let's just say that he makes 40k annually. So based upon what he has been taught he gives $4000. in tithes and perhaps another $1000 in various offerings each year for a grand total of $5000. given to spread the gospel each year. This individual says to himself- you know I would really like to give a lot more into the Kingdom but simply cannot- Let's just say that this believer want's to give $50,000. into the Kingdom next year- how much would he have to earn to accomplish this based upon the commonly taught doctrines? Yes, about $400,000. However if we begin to teach sound doctrine based upon the Bible and New Testament giving- He may come to understand that God will provide everything he and his family needs to live- perhaps $30-$40k and whatever The Lord brings in above and beyond this is to be sowed into the Kingdom of God. So, in light of balanced New Testament teaching on giving generously from the heart, this individual could earn 90k and then be able to sow ten times the former amount quite cheerfully and without any necessity or compulsion. Just a couple of thoughts to begin to understand the vast difference between 'tithing" and New Testament giving. Be careful not to put born again believers into any boxes- they may well be far too small for the Holy Spirit living inside of them!

TITHING IS UNSCRIPTURAL IN THE NEW COVENANT What is taught and practiced in our churches today concerning 'tithing' cannot be found in the pages of the Bible. Even worse is the fact that many preachers actually twist the Scriptures in Malachi and tell you that you are going to be cursed if you don't bring all of your tithes into thier storehouse. (Nevermind the fact that none of them have an actual storehouse, much less an active Temple.) What is being taught is: If we don't give 10% of our gross wages than we are supposedly robbing God and are therefore cursed with a curse. Right? Wait a minute though... Didn't Jesus pay the price, did he not become a curse for us, did he not become poor so that we might be rich? If we are under the blood of the Lamb, saved by grace, freed from the curse of the law... then how is it possible that we can now be cursed? My friends it is not possible that we can be cursed unless we accept false teachings and put oursleves back under the law!!! Now for our study; Before we begin I want you to know that I am personally all for giving to and helping good causes. (Including taking care of the poor and widows and orphans...) As well as giving generously to the church and church leaders. Paul was inspired by God's Holy Spirit to declare that "God LOVES a cheerful giver" (II Cor.9:7). Cheerfully giving from the heart is a virtue. However, fraudulently fleecing the flock by exacting ten percent of parishioner's paychecks under fear of breaking an Old Testament law of tithing, is a sin! Will a man ROB God?" How many untold tens of thousands of men will give account one day for teaching this verse in Malachi 3:8 totally out of context for their own sordid gain. I couldn?t count the times I have heard self-appointed ministers of the gospel berate their congregations and listeners for "robbing God" in tithes and offerings. This verse in Malachi certainly means what it says. Someone was defrauding God of tithes and offerings, but wait until you find out who it is that God blames for this act. There is no need for people to feel guilty over any religious doctrine, particularly when it is not even based upon sound doctrine from the Bible. It is time to rid ourselves of the condemnation and guilt which is being used against the Body of Christ. Did you not know... Haven't you ever heard the verse; "Thus, condemnation will never come to those who are in Christ Jesus, because the law of the Spirit which gives life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death." Just how much do most people (or their ministers) really know about God's teaching on tithing? MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT WHAT TITHING REALLY IS Here are just a few things you will learn about tithing directly from the Scriptures: 1. It was the ministers, Levitic Priests, in the book of Malachi that God blamed for defrauding Him, not the tithe payers themselves! (This is the context of the book of Malachi!) And, as there is no Levitic Priesthood today, no one can tithe under the New Covenant. 2. Contrary to popular misconceptions, the Scriptures do not show that Abraham tithed on a regular basis from his personal property or livestock. Abraham gave one tithe only from the booty of war to Melchizedek the priest of God! There is no evidence that he ever tithes again. 3. God did not tell Jacob that if he tithed He would bless Jacob, but rather Jacob told God that if God blessed him first, then Jacob would give God a tithe! (You know, I have never, ever, even heard tell of, a sermon given by self-appointed tithe-collectors, on the tithing habits of Jacob). 4. Jesus Christ did not support His ministry through tithes. Furthermore, He told His apostles NOT to take money from ANY source when He sent them out to preach the gospel. After Christ's resurrection, the apostles did not collect tithes or "tithe money" from the people either. 5. Only Levites could collect tithes. Christian televangelists and modern preachers are not "Priests of Levi!" They can accept freewill offerings; they dare not collect "tithes!" There are NO priests of Levi anywhere on earth today. It is a SIN for anyone to exact "tithe money" from anyone! And the wages of sin is DEATH! (Rom. 6:23). 6. If one was a poor farmer in ancient Israel and didn't have an increase in his harvest, then such were NOT REQUIRED TO TITHE AT ALL! 7. Our apostle, Paul, often went without and labored with his own hands for sustenance. Yet, he never taught tithing. Paul knew full well that "tithing" is not for believers and the true Israel of God today. Paul absolutely never took one penny of "tithe money" to support his lifelong ministry! If Paul had taken just one hundredth of the salaries and wages of the converts under his care, he would have never gone hungry, but would have been a super wealthy man.. 8. The priests (Levites) were not to live a life of worldly splendor above even that of the king, but rather were given portions of the tithe of the increase of the land that was also given to the strangers, the widows, and the fatherless. This tithe consisted of things like crops, oil and live stock, not huge amounts of MONEY. 9. Not all of the tithes were given to the Levites, fatherless, widows, and strangers. Some tithes were eaten by the tithe payer and his family, in communion with the Lord. (Read the Scriptures! I haven't ever heard any preacher teach on this either.) 10. "The first tenth belongs to God" is not a Scriptural statement or principle. God did not require the first tenth, but the tenth tenth! 11. In ancient Israel, under the Levitical priesthood, money was not a tithable commodity. No one was required to tithe on money! All ministers know that tithing money is unscriptural! If they don't, they haven?t even read these scriptures on tithing. 12. All ministers who teach that the Bible gives them authority to exact the collecting of money as a tithe to God are doing so without God's instructions. In the History of the world, God Almighty has NEVER authorized any man or organization, for any religious purpose, to exact ten percent of another man's wages! (Unless of coarse you believe that the Mormon church ever heard from God... Not!)

Guys...the military had this thing under as much control as anyone can when something this unprecedented in world history happened. It's easy in hindsight to forget that this was something very unique and there was no playbook to go by. First of all Yod, that is a totally erroneous assumption! Our own government had not only received advanced warning of possible terrorsits acts using commercial jet's, but had actaully done some simulation tests. Condaleeza Rice knowinly lied about not having any idea that someone could make an attack using commercial jets. And if the Military were simply allowed to follow set protocol then they would have had each and every hijacked plane surrounded by at least 2 escort fighter jets each... BUT SOMEONE ORDERED THEM TO ABANDON NORMAL PROTOCOL AND STAY ON THE GROUND. This response fits pretty well the the official response saying "duh- we just weren't ready- We didn't know what to do- Duh!?"- which is a flat out lie. If spending untold billions of dollars produces idiots who don't know what's happening and who aren't prepared then we are certainly wasting an incredible amount of money! However we do have the intelligence to handle this kind of situation and more- and The FBI & the CIA were not taken completely by surprise by the events that transpired on 9/11- That is merely a lame cover story for the very gullible brain-washed public. (see the link on my previous post- ) I would guess that the guy who whispered in GW's ear was saying, "Mr President, the country is under attack and we have to assume that there might be a plan for your life. We need get you to a military base and away from these kids before an attack comes." If your assumption is correct, then Bush's delay seems even more rediculous. He would have wanted to move immediately because anyone could know his exact location at that very moment! Particularly rediculous is the pathetic story that Goergie didn't want to frighten the children. Please! The school children could have simply been told that the Pres. had to leave on important business- plain and simple! And it wasn't just 7 minutes people... Pres. Bush was told about the first plane hitting the WTC BEFORE HE EVEN WENT INTO THE CLASSROOM!

As usual everyone has gotten way off topic! This was just a little tid-bit proving that many of the facts brought up in the movie Farneheit 9/11 were in fact verified by the 9/11 comission. And second you people have missed some very important points in your little petty debates; (Keeping in mind that I do not support Kerry and am not a Democrat!) You critisize Kerry as a way of trying to take the spot light of your idol king Bush. Did it even occur to you that John Kerry did not have any authority to do anything on his own/ whereas Pres. Bush the Commander in Chief did! The main point which many of you don't seem to understand is this; There is a National protocol which is already in place when there are any planes which go off course or are even suspected of being hijacked. The Air Force does not have to call the President to ask if they should scramble jets to intercept planes which are not responding to communications! In fact this very thing has happend several times where for one reason or another planes are either off course and or not responding/ and because of the prearranged plans and protocol Air Force fighters are immediately scrambled. (FYI it takes less than 7 minutes to scramble fighter jets in an emergency!) The very fact that no fighter jets were scrambled tells us conclusively that they did not follow the normal protocol and SOMEONE ordered those fighter planes to remain on the ground. They do not immediately go up and shoot someone down- what they do is have one fighter come into position on each side of the plane in question and escort it down out of the air. When and if the plane either does not respond or tries to break out of the escort- and then only if there is significant danger, (such as a course towards a populated area or public building...) then the fighter jets would be ordered to shoot down the non-compliant target. But as pointed out- none of this happened even though this is the standard protocol in these situations which means beyond the shadow of a doubt that someone with authority did in fact order these Air Force pilot's to remain grounded! Who gave that order & Why? That my friends is the question... Although this is still way off the topic of this thread! Please click the following link for detailed verification of the above assertions! http://emperors-clothes.com/indict/indict-1.htm

9/11 Commission Report Confirms Key Fahrenheit 9/11 Facts The September 11 Commission's 567-page final report has confirmed key facts presented in Fahrenheit 9/11 . Here are passages from the film, followed by the 9/11 Commission's findings: I. Ashcroft Briefing Fahrenheit 9/11: