lifesharer

This is one of the most complex and debated question i have delt with. Its answer is just as complex. There are no paradoxes in scriptures, just lack of understanding. Let me first reccomend you to the subject titled "regeneration" in the doctrinal question forums. Regeneration is the key to as much as half of the NT scriptures . A clear understanding of this subject resolves completely this seeming paradox. Regeneration: ( spirit rebirth ( john 3:6, ezekiel 11: 19 and jeremiah 31: 33 Ro. 2: 28-29 + col. 2:11-14) is a LITERAL healing/ rebirth/ restoration of our human spirit to the original divinely created state that Adam had before he sinned. This new creation, or newness of life , also called circumcision of the heart and remission of sin(S) is what makes it possible for a christian to walk without having to sin if they are willing to be ( allegoricaly/ symbolicaly yet also literaly through personal experience ) crucified with Christ. ( dead to self / living for and submitted to Christ) There are two parts to this solution to sin. PLEASE READ THESE VERSES AS I GIVE THEM FOR FULL UNDERSTANDING. 1) The effects of the law being able to condemn us or convict us of sin is removed as seen in Ro. chapters 6 through 8:1-17, because a christian can be (after regeneration ( being born again spiritualy) able to be led in every thing by the holy Spirit (john 3:8+ Gal. 5:16-18) he is no longer subject to the jurisdiction of the law (Gal. 5: 18 , Ro 8:1, Ro. 6: 1-14 and many other verses. Therefore where there is no law :" Sin is not imputed" Ro. 5: 13. This is what is meant by the scriptural concept of "Grace". And NOT some magical power from God to resist sin as the catholics assumed. This then resolves the LEGAL aspect of how we are condemned or even convinced by the law when we " sin". Now, "sin" is the breaking of the law, and the law is the manifestation of Gods perfect will AND HOLINESS. It makes tangible what was essentialy spiritual to the carnal unregenerated man and was meant for that very purpose to be our conscience making sin to be sinful. (Ro chapter 5) 2) But an unregenerated man cannot be led by the Spirit ( john 3:8) and therefore God has established the gift of regeneration ( John 3:6, Ro. 2: 28-29 + Col 2: 11-14 etc.) for us so that we can again have that intimate personal communion with God ( face to face in allegory) that is essential to our walking with God without sinning. And if we are obediant to the leading of the holy Spirit we can NOT be condemned by the law. This is what is meant in 1 peter 3: 21 of : ".... an answer of a good conscience towards God". The human spirit has three basic functions: communion, intuition ( revelation) and conscience and they work like this: by intimate communion with God, our spirit intuitivly KNOWs what is good and evil ( conscience ) because God is the standard of truth and holiness. In effect God becomes our conscience through His Spirit to our spirit. To see this in effect,...read 1Cor. 2: 9-16. So now we have the solution to the problem of sin: No sin ( condemnation unto spiritual death as being seperated from God again) is apportioned to you if you fail to be perfectly obediant to God's PERFECT will as led by the Spirit ( Ro. 8: 1) and our NATURE is changed to facilitate this walk with God. we no longer have that adamic sin nature but are new creations with the divinely created nature restored in us, being called the sons of God. 1 John 1:8 and 10 are duplicate statements addressing the factual state of all men as being sinners. And NOT a mandate to justify our weaknesses and sins. It is NOT meant to be applied to a regenerated, spirit led christain as Ro. 8:1 clearly shows. Obviously these verses were addressed to self proclaimed " righteous ones" like the Pharrisees. We are no longer the "corrupt tree" as NOW we can KNOW (spiritualy discern)what Gods perfect will is in all things because we can enter boldly into the holy of holies ourselves and ask! Regeneration is NOT absolute barrier to sinning, it is Gods way of solving the problem of sin and respecting our free wills too. In fact many who are regenerated never walk in it; not understanding it, and become carnal again having thier conscience (spirit) seared again!( 1 Tim. 4:2) And baby christians (spiritualy immature/ unrenewed/ un sanctified), may well disobey the leading of the Spirit or succumb to the fleshly lusts, BUT if they repent and turn back to the Spirits leadings they are washed again of all sin and are positionally (legaly and factualy) perfect before God. Its no longer about a system of works we do ( the OT Laws)but about a living personal relationship with Christ by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Praise GOD who is full of grace and mercy towards us! Lifesharer

saved by the passion: you have utterly missed the point and ignored my previouse posts! Irreguardless of the final state of the murdered unborn, we do not have the right to murder them > period! and your attempts to state MY assertions is in error! The "sin nature" is NOT sin! Please see my previouse posts as to what it IS. My comment was directed to the authority we do NOT have, to kill babies so that; they that do so will suffer JUDGEMENT themselves. I SAID: we cannot be SURE where they GO since scriptures is silent on this matter:.... but clear about Gods judgement on those that murder innocent souls! Finaly your assumption is also erronious as my first post to this topic shows clearly that i do have logical reasons to think they are innocent of sin and will be with God in the limited state they died in. Further: your last statement (assumption) showes you did NOT read what i wrote in previous posts as i stated clearly that i do NOT believe in "original sin" as defined by some here. I believe that the original sin NATURE is a dead spirit cut off from God: the source of life spiritualy. It is NOT sin itself and is not sufficent to cause a innocent child to be condemned to hell, since scripturaly we can be saved and yet not regenerated ( see the account of the thief on the cross). While i consider this a logical and correct deduction that the unborn will not be sent to hell;..... It is NOT proof without clear scriptures ( our ONLY final authority) of such a belief unless you can follow logical and accurate exegesis as i layed out in my previouse posts. I am saddened by your poor understanding of the plain statements i made and encourage you to take a little more time to understand others posts thouroughly before you make such inaccurate comments about what others believe or even posted plainly! You must learn to read more carefully and consider all the subject matter before you before you erroniously assume you understand what others think. lifesharer

saved by the Passion: I MUSt respond independantly to your last assertion. we do NOT know for a fact that such an unborn will esacpe hell! ..... My DISERTATION NOT WITHSTANDING! and we do NOT have the RIGHT to choose such a possibility. What MAN can say what Gods purposes for any child/ adult may be! And God never gave MAN the right to kill INNOCENT children FOR COMFORT OR MERELY SELFISH REASONS. (the admittedly rare medical cases and life of the mother arguments aside!) God will NOT be mocked by such a peverting of good decent moral truths as to think we can choose to send babies to heaven. Such backwards thinking is what satanist might use to justify thier peverse desires!. i am shocked and dismayed by such a statement from a "Christian"! EVEN IF IT IS TRUE THAT THEY WOULD GO DIRECTLY TO HEAVEN , THEY REMAINS "BABES" SPIRITUALY FOR ETERNITY AND DO NOT HAVE THE OPTION TO NOT BE, AND ANY PURPOSE GOD MAY HAVE HAD IN THIER BIRTH AND LIFE IS THWARTED! I sense the spiritual darkness that surrounds such a statement as you made as much as it did the Nazis justifing the killing of Jews as " Christ killers". Such thinking is relative moralistic humanism and not from God! lifesharer

As I shared before : this " tendancy to sin" is simply our spirit being cut off from God and not having His holiness and truth as the standard from which to "Judge all things" (1Cor. 2: 15) this is part of what regeneration corrects. The "Spiritual mechanics" of this is simple. By connecting regeneration ( John 3:6 + Ro. 2: 28-29 and Col. 2: 11-14) with 1 Peter 3: 21 and 1Cor. 2: 9-16 you can see how this happens. When our spirit is in the unregenerated state we must then rely on our soulical intellect and fleshly desires to motivate us (this is what scriptures calls a "carnal" man ( ro. 7: 14, 8:7 and specificaly 1 Cor. 3:1-6. This nature is also called : the old man, the Adamic sin nature, in your flesh and other terms. In this contectual frame then we apply simple logic and common sense: An child may indeed have a "cut -off spirit" (unregenerated) from God from the time of conception , OR POSSIBLY NOT, but remains innocent of an actual "sin" itself. Until such time as the child does sin it remains innocent of committing sin and scriptures refer to how God "reveals himself to babes". a "BABE" THEN,... MAY HAVE INTIMATE COMMUNION AND THE " SIN NATURE" COMES NOT BY BIRTH BUT BECAUSE SIN IS IN THE WORLD. And so this "sin nature" of a dead spirit cut off from God is not confered until that child entertains some sinful action. This last seems to me to be the actual state of spiritualityin a baby. Sin is like the veil that hangs between the holy place and holy of holies . It is thicker from our point of view than from God's. Sin tends to drive a wedge of guilt and shame between God and a child so that it is more difficult for them to percieve Him rather than hindering Him in percieving us. Furthermore, guilt tends to make us turn away from God by hardening our hearts and causing us to feel shame, see Adam and Eve hidding from God in genesis. Continuing and increasing until such time as our "conscience is seared" by it (1Tim. 4:2). Hardening of the heart is the type for a very calouse person in deep self deception (hypocricy). This last scripture refering to the fullness of being spiritualy cut off from God by "tresspasses and sins" even after having been saved!. A child, up to a certian age depending up each child independantly, has not yet personaly done a sin! Now: "sin" is defined in it's purest sense as disobeying Gods perfect holy will. And Gods perfect Holy will is the "Law" and Morality manifested to us. Relative moral humanism is one product of the spiritualy consciense-less state. ( again see 1peter 3: 21 [do not confuse this with consciousness or awareness]) Inability to discern real holiness and truth from deceptions is another effect of this conscience-less state of unregeneration. NO wonder God wants us to train a child up in the way it should Go since the younger a child has been brought to salvation and regeneration the less burden of sins committed, they carry. Thank God for the blood of Christ which washes us from all sin and enables us to have intimate communion with God again through regeneration. It appears that Finney may have been such, as was Rees Howell, another mighty man of God . Please read about them as they are unusual in many ways. Also; child does not have as much to unlearn about sin and selfishness as an adult either, which means they will be easier to bring to spiritual maturity and may have had less " strongholds" in thier life. Such, I believe, was Charles Finney and Rees Howell because they remained while growing up, largly decent and good souls as a look at thier lives will show. Calvanist's will disagree heartily with what i just said since they dogmaticaly define sin nature as a overall degeneration of man making us unable to be good in any sense. Yet Jesus said: 'if you being evil are able to to do good to your children....'. There are men who try to do good in thier lives with the limited understanding of what it is from thier unregenerated view. Jesus said it like this; "Greater love has no MAN than that he lay down his life for his friend." (emphasis mine) But those who Know Jesus in intimate communion realize that GOD died for us while we did not even care to know him! Such selfless love is God's provenance alone! Jesus died for his enemies! WE can learn this type of love if we will only be crucified with Christ. Lifesharer

Stevehut , the lack of real answers to your question is typical of so many christians, saddly. "Original sin" is not a complete statement unless you add "nature". In scriptures it is also called the "Adamic sin nature". In scriptures this speak of the results of Adam's sin, NOT to "sin" itself. When Adam sinned his spirit lost that intimate "face to face" communion with God. This is why God said " Where art thou to Adam", to signify this new state Adam was in. This state of being "dead ( spiritualy, to God) in tresspasses and sins" is what we all recieved from Adam. Our spirits TOO have been cut off since all men have sinned them selves. Truthfully, even this state is not passed on by genetics or our natures, but because sin entered the world and has corrupted the world and all men have followed suit we say it is our sin nature from Adam. The answer to the sin nature is found in a number of verses: Ro. 2: 28-28+ Col. 2: 11-14 , John 3:6, and Ezekiel 11: 19 and jeremiah 31: 33; all are about what scriptures calls "regeneration". This LITERAL rebirth / restoration of our spirit and the freeing of it from the overwhelming of it by our flesh and soulical nature (carnal nature in scriptures) is reversed and our spirit is then able to have that intimate communion again. The results being the power to overcome our flesh ( John 3:8 + Gal. 5: 16-17 + ro. 8: 1-17) to be able to be led again in a personal relationship with the holy Spirit ( John 3:8 + ro. 8: 1-17) to participate in Gods KINGDOM ( john 3:5 , Matt 19: 28) to become spiritualy mature to the measure and stature of Christ ( ephesians 4: 13), the ability to rightly divide the word and to know Gods perfect will ( 1Cor. 2: 9-16), to exercise spiritual gifts like spiritual discernment ( John 3:3, 1Cor. 2:15) and exercise Gods power and authority. These are precious and powerful truths and it is clear why satan has made a mess in most christians minds as to what this is all about. God in Christ has made a way to deal with that "old man" nature by regeneration and faith to walk in obediance to the Spirit by your renewed spirit ( newness of life / new creation / divine nature / spiritual man etc. SO rejoice and if you have time; read the subject in doctrinal questions titled " Regeneration ". Or write to me at yahoo ( same name ) for the bible study i have prepared on this. Sincerly, lifesharer

Hello< i want to state that all denominationalism and sectarianism is sin and a division of the body; to its weakening. Much of the traditions and rituals of your denomination are just that : empty acts of form and ritual trying to replace a living personal relationship with God through regeneration and the indwelling Holy Spirit with "pomp and circumstances" as it were. Infant baptism is a act which negates all the principles of scriptures and shows a lack of any understanding of what baptism is about. It is NOT just a symbolic gesture, nor does it confer "osas" on a infant. If you read the doctrinal question here in the forums, on regeneration, you will see that this (water baptism) is the place and time God Chose to LITERALY regenerate the human spirit, (ro. 2: 28-29 +col. 2: 11-14 + John 3:6 and Ezekiel 11: 19) this is a fullfillment of the ancient type and shadow of Israel passing through the red sea and is the foundation of spiritual maturity, abilities , and participation in the KINGDOM of God (john 3:5) when followed by soulical sanctification (walking in the leading of the Spirit as was taught Israel in the wilderness). It is for a fully cogzinant mature person able to decide fir themselves to be baptised. The early church often made the new ly saved convert wait up to three years to learn and be eductaed inwhat water baptism ( regeneration) was about and to see if they would fully commit to its lifestyle. An Infant does NOT have a " saving faith" in Christ and God will NOT regenerate such. Salvation is NOT dependant on our being regenerated however. Rather regeneration is a "fruit" of having salvation. Infant baptism was first practiced by certian german sects who thought that this protected them from being kidnapped and used by "satanists" in thier rituals. Which was considered rampant in that day. It was NEVER practiced by the early church. This is not to be confused with dedication as this is as the other poster said: a vow of the parents to raise thier child up in the Lord. I do believe that God gave "Teachers" ( ephesians 4: 11) to teach us and i recommend you seek them if your not sure, remebering that : "out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established . applying this principle: we read what other ( teachers ) share and then compare diligently with the word of God. I believe that if you read all of Watchman Nees works diligently ( for one) you would find out enough truth to discern the error of infant baptism your self. IT is clear that NO one can snatch us from Gods hand, but unlike calvanistic doctrines I believe that God never removes our free will. In that Light i say that we always have the freedom to reject God at any time if we so choose to do so. In this light Hebrews 6:4 -8 is clear. nothing less than a final free-will choice on your part to crucify Christ anew (reject Him totaly) is required for your loss of salvation. As long as you run the race and look to Christ with faith, then only is your salvation sure. Heb. 6: 8-? God will not be fooled by those with a insincere faith as well as those who were martyered into a recant. He knows the fullness of truth and nothing is hid from his sight. We can trust FULLY in his ability to save to the uttermost those who put thier faith in Him. BUT NOT EVER AGAINST OUR WILLS. I have studied the course of governments , countries and denominations. In all cases it is satans plan and purpose to corrupt and distroy them. The presbyterian is no different in this. It has lead the way in advocacy of homosexuality and that in the ministry. it has shown clear carnality in its totality of practices and doctrines as is standard for all ritualized and traditionalized denominations. It's inate in men who seek to avoid a strong presence of God because of our fleshly nature lest we be made to crucify our flesh in truth. Plus men love the "upper seat". I encourage you to seek other meetings of christians and get a broader senseof the full manifestation of Gods Spirit and Giofts before you settle down with any particular denom and its particular quirks of doctrine. There are , of course< some cults that portray themselves as christian churches but by simply reading Walter martins book : the KINGDOM of the Cults and learning what are the axiomatic doctrines of a true christian faith, you should be well protected from these psuedo christian cults. IN reality the " Church" is the PEOPLE alone and NOT the meeting or building. Scripturaly it is the body of believers alone , all true believers every where and every when! Finding fellowship with other true believers is important! partaking in the body ministry is of great help in attaining spiritualy maturity. BUT never are we to turn the responsibility for our personal walk or salvation over to the "leaders"! The two basic evidences for a cult is a works doctrines to get or maintain salvation and/ or a denial of the diety of Christ (scripturaly speaking). To day we see several means to controll new converts like: "they are all lost and in satans power " , OR: just trust us and we will get you into heaven. They attempt to seperate you from your friends and even family, or they prey on fear in you of losing salvation without thier help. Assembly of God and baptist churches are generaly doctrinaly sound as are many local community churches. BUt it always varies on how Christ minded the pastor or leaders are. Pray always that God leads you to a spirit filled and Spirit led local body to fellowship with. Yet even they are slipping into rituals and deadworks to some degree. Our faith is a progressive revelation of the deeper things of God by His Spirit. ( 1 Cor. 2: 9-16) If you are not seeking spirituality and the cross that gets you there you will be left behind to walk in the old man nature of flesh and soul with No spiritual life. I am glad that you have been moved from your previous complacency to seek a better understanding of Gods will and truth, as it shows that you are sensitive to Gods leading. Sincerely , Lifesharer

I died 2 your comments and scriptures are nice but ignore the fundimental defintion of what scriptures ( GOD) defined regeneration AS in greek it is paligenessia and means a spiritualy rebirth . This is the specific and precise defintion and much of what you posted has NO relevance to this specific LITERAL rebirth of our SPIRIT at water baptism ( ro. 2: 28-29 and col. 2: 11-14). by the HOLY SPIRIT ( John 3:6) you confusing a LOT of different ideas in your chosen scriptures. resurrection is NOT by defintion regeneration. titus 3: 5 is the governing scripture on what regeneration refers too, the rest is NOT regeneration BY defintion. it is simple: look it up in strongs concordance it refers to a spiritual rebirth of our spirit ( john 3:6 and ezekiel 11: 19) ( NOT the transforming of the body at Christs return. it refers to one thing only :our spirits restoration , nothing ELSE, according to the precise defintion of the word itself. "Renewing" in titus 3 5 is linked to the souls sanctification, a process that takes time and is based on a living personal relationship with GOD by the indwelling Holy Spirit and his washing of the word in us renewing our MINDS (ro. 12: 2, Eph. 4: 22-24) . The body plays NO part in these two and does NOT affect the concept of regeneration as used in titus and matt. SHILOH your assumptions of what it means are NOT accurate scripturaly or even close to what i said. obviously you have poor reading skills since you ignore many clear comments i made that refute your accusations . I encourage you to refrain from such abusive comments as you seem to make and in assumimg you understand something with looking at all the relevant scriptures. NOTE ephesians 4: 22-24. for your edification the " sin nature" is a dead spirit cut off from God , NOT: " the flesh". NOR does being regenerated to a living spirit capable of being led by the spirit of God mean we are " flawless" since the flesh is still (the body of this death(ro. 7) with us to be crucified with Christ. The point of regeneration is to restore the intimate communion we were originaly intended to have as ADAM HAD. this allows us to be led by the Spirit and to be free from the laws condemnation as i have pointed out over and over in this discourse. contrary to your poor assertions not based in scriptural logic , having a restored spirit is NOT a total block to sinning as ADAM SINNED while he still HAD your falsely called "flawless nature" didn't he? ! your logic is realy poor and your attempts to place your opinions over the plain text of Gods word is sad. why do you hate the idea that we can obey Gods spirit leading in all things? Why do you WANT to have a sin nature and an excuse to continue in sin? God has provided a legal excape from the law through being buried with Christ in baptism ( ro. chapter 6), a literal escape from sins stains by the washing of the Blood ( rev. 1:5) and a power through the indwelling Holy Spirit to walk perfectly in the leading of the holy Spirit ( ro. 8). what is your excuse then? why do you hate those who show you Gods plan? Amature response will not contain such adjectives and assaults on a person as your did. you do not understand or define ANY of the terms i have used correctly JOHN. P you make several comments, i will simply ignore them. the last is though: why does my regenerated nature not work properly then? thats exactly what i stated in my first post> "because many christians do not understand this doctrine or WALK in it properly" if you have NO idea that a car can start will you start it? if you do not comprehend spirit , spirituality or regeneratyion properly can you do it? NO the point i majke is that JESUS though this is his MOST important teaching ( he emphasised it more than any other he gave) then we need to thinks the same ( have the mind of Christ) I encourage you to read Watchman Nees foundational book called " the spiritual man". because it will help you understand and walk IN regeneration. watchman Nee is a TEACHER called of God ( ephesians 4: 11) and his studies are profound above almost any i see today. do not worry he is dead now so your not being forced or tricked to join a cult! I am GROWING UP to the measure and stature of Christ. I have spiritualy discernment ( it realy a interesting and unsettling thing at first) i have other gifts and i have a victory over my flesh i NEVER SAW until God showed me this simple thing ( what regeneration IS and how it affects us ). NOW i can say i have stood still and seen the salvation of God . HE broke the fleshes ( ro. 6) bondage over me and has created in me a new heart ( spirit) and a new mind ( soul) . I am growing up more and more to spiritual maturity and may yet sin but not be condemned from God. to all of you: read the verses with a little faith and prayer instead of just assumimg you understand them. Lifesharer

Romans chapter 7 clearly deals with the issue of the flesh as shiloh has tried to do poorly. we who are regenerated have a functioning SPIRIT, the flesh is crucified with Christ , this does NOT discount the NEW creation we become at regeneration. we are in Christ and the flesh is NOT withstanding Gods power. Gal. 5: 16 states :" If you are led by the Spirit (through your regenerated spirit ) you will NOT fullfill the lusts of the flesh." that's GODS OPINION! Ephesians 4: 11-16 states that we can come to unity of the faith and to the measure of a perfect man of the measure and stature of Christ. this is another way of saying "spiritual maturity". Jesus was tempted as we are < but without sin. We who are regenerated (spiritualy minded being led by the Spirit Ro. 8: 1-17 and Gal 5: 18 and ro. chapter 6) cannot be condemned ( accused or convicted) by the LAW of sinning (where there is NO law : sin is NOT imputed Ro. 5: 13) those who are led by the Spirit are NOT under the law Gal. 5: 18) those who are baptised in christ ( and regenerated there at) are DEAD and the law has NO dominion over us ro. chapter 6- 8: 1-17) because they can be led by the Spirit and are under grace and NOT the law. If sin is NOT imputed then there is no sin ( but remember ro. 6: 1) this liberty ( from the law) is NOT to be used as an excuse to continue sinning) rather by the Spirit we do mortify the deeds of the flesh ( ro. 8: 13) then sin is not imputed and the blood of Christ washed away ALL prior sin, our legal standing is as with the imputed righteousness of Christ and the law cannot convict us of sin even IF we do sin, but the holy Spirit in us pricks our conscience and we are able to repent ( 1Peter 3: 21) and be cleansed again. regeneration is NOT barrier to your choosing to disobey the leading of the holy Spirit,... it is not a barrier to sinning,... it is the power of God to be led by the Spirit (PHil. 3: 11-12) (spiritualy minded performing the perfect will of God) and to walk in newness of life having learned through experience to be listening to the Spirits leading in all things. It is the power of God to become spiritualy mature to the measure and stature of Christ ! Its sad when people like shiloh who did not read anything carefully or look up the scriptures i gave, and others, assault a person instead of allowing scriptures to speak clearly. It is typical of carnal men that they killed the messenger as they did the prophets of old. it is not unexpected here either as there are now MANY " christians" who are in reality just carnal not having any spiritualy discernment of the things of God. Your comments have NO authority if you do not show it by scriptures. everything I said herein is clearly supported by scripture. As i said : ro. 2: 28-29 and col. 2: 11-15 clearly show that regeneration: a literal rebirthing of our human spirit ( john 3:6 , ezekiel 11; 19 ro. 2:18-19 and col. 2: 11-14) ( also called circumcision of the heart ( "spirit": ro. 2: 29 " IN THE SPIRIT" ) is connected to the instant of water baptism as where GOD chose to regenerate us. lifesharer It clear that much "muddying" of the water has been done here. I suggest again that IF YOU ACTUALY think I am wrong, you get the bible study i offered and then write back to me personaly with your arguments and see if your realy got any truth in them.

( I died 2) No< Col 2: 11-14 and ro. 2:28-29 show clearly that regeneration occures at the time of water baptism and this is the BEginning of spiritualy maturity and abilities to participate in Gods KINGDOM (john 3:5) we do NOT have to wait till we die to achieve spiritual maturity ( unless you believe as the mormons do). ( ANOTHEER TRAVELER) THE WORD OF god IS THE SOLE AUTHORITY ANDIF YOU DID not READ THE SCRIPTURES I GAVE AS TEXT PROOF YOUR UNARMED AND WITHOUT AUTHORITY TO DISPUTE SINCE YOU AS A PERSON HAVE no AUTHORITY ) IT IS gods WORD THAT IS THE AUTHORITY , YOU SEE NOW? ( sorry about the caps ) (HIS SON) you have encapsulated regeneration in a nut shell ) you are defintily withing the KINGDOM ! as for the rest i will respoind next week

we are done JOHN your attitude and utter lack of comprehension of many basic principles in the word show your not able comprehend this . and further your constant sliding from the subjcect is simply "muddying" the waters. nothing you have said is valid of of consequence to the simple plain scriptures i have posted over and over. our conversation is finished then BYE

I have a good grasp of the discoveries of Ivan Pannin ( biblical numerics) and the ELS bible codes (Grant Jeffreys : The Handwriting of God), In my online witnessing I have run across both extremes of pro and con for these evidences. BUT , MY knowledge of and understanding of these subjects leaves me even MORE convinced of the divine inspiriation ( signature of God ) with in these "proofs". when trying to explain this to others both saved and unsaved i find only certian so called arguments against them and cannot understand why people do not see the errors of thier positions. The simplest basic facts of mathimatics and logic reveal a profound significance in these two proofs to both a clear minded christians and an honest intellectual searcher. Many of the con (against) arguments seem to be based on a errant understanding of the codes significance and on the intent or meanings, if any, to be derived from them. For example many confuse Ivan Panins: Numerics; with a occult numerology like the jewsih kabbalaistic methods. the comparison being in no way relative. others decry the attempts by some men ( Michael Drosinin to be precise) to use the ELS codes as prophetic divination tools like the ouija board. as proof that its not from God, when in fact its actualy impossible to use it in that manner. Both proofs are simply mathimatical anomalies which give evidence of design and purpose in thier being there, in the text. And both defy the axiomatic LAW of probabilities and its logical deductions, revealing that the intentional placement of them there, being unduplicatable by man, is then a legaly acceptable evidence (beyond reasonable doubt) and scientificaly (beyond mere chance) evidence that a greater being must have had a firm control of the creation of the Bible in total! The biblical Numerics evidence is purely mathimatical with NO revelatory or doctrinal meanings whatsoever. And the ELS "codes" show clearly; when studied as evidence for scriptures, a wonderouse design in every letter of the inspired text, while revealing absolutly NO new doctrines or prophecies either ( Drosinin not withstanding). I welcome any questions or comments on this subject. As a fellow christian i hope i can clarify these discoveries to you so you can see them as the valuable evidence for the christian faith that they actualy are, when properly understood . Let me take you through each step of the discovery and its relevance, step by step. Sincerely, Lifesharer PS I encourage you to read Grant Jeffreys two books on this subject.

hello laura< The Book is waiting on God's timing it may yet be a while, but ty for asking, Lifesharer, and Laura i wrtite wat it takes to answer the issues and questions raised, each time i have to deal with issues and questions it alowes me to perfect my books chapters . The bible studies are available from me as i have no online site. just write to me at : lifesharer@yahoo.com and ask for the bible studies. Yahoo has checked it for virus before i sent it and i wrote it myself so i know there are no viruses anyway. NOw as to John P. i find you have a hard time following plain statements and clear scriptural refences or even simple logical inferences. I am also sadden by the tone your post has been showing too. My heart goes out to you as i deal with people all the time who do not tkae suffiecent time to fully understand something before they reacte. I pray that you will take more time to read what i have written and allow the holy Spirit to help you. Let me attend again to your comments one by one. The Jewish Rabbis and historical christian theology have shared a understanding that satan usurped the authority that God gave to Adam which he lost when he sinned, this OLD, well established theological judeo/ christian idea is just one way to understand the plan of God. It does NOT mean the satan's claim was valid ( legaly) it means that in Gods holiness as manifested in law satan MADE a claim to adams authority (justly or not) and Jesus PROVED that the claim was not valid and did so by walking perfectly in the law. This "trial" in heaven was witnessed by a cloud of angels and its mentioned briefly in scriptures. Its a complicated concept for a non legaly trained mind to see. i will not defend this to you therefore as it is not important. After reviewing your many quotes i see no reason to address them all as most clearly answer your complaints. The kingdom is not "everywhere" as you claim, as the Lords prayer clearly reveals : thy kingdom come , they will be done on earth as it is in heaven..." the perfect will of God is NOT being done on earth everywhere and while God is sovereign he gave ius free wills ( which i know you do not believe in since your a calvanist) there are many many cats of evil men that are NOT Gods will. patently and obviously. But i am not here to argue about calvanist errant doctrines and misunderstandings . Our sin nature is a dead spirit cut off from God and not to be confused with the effects of that; in physical death. which will be dealt with when we are givien our glorified immortal spiritual bodies at Jesus return. I do not know how many times i can restate this simple thing to you JOHN our spirit was cut off from God by sin, our soul and flesh assumed power and control and we became "carnal men" sold into sin. regeneration heals. restores and rebirths our spirit and begins a process ( renewing) of bring it to pre-eminence in us so we can be spiritualy minded beings not led by our carnal nature. it is that simple this fact amounts to being given a new nature a divine nature . the original nature God created in Adam. i encourage you to read ALL the posts i have made as i have stated this over and over and over in them and given scriptur sites that state them. I encourage you to get Watchman Nees book : the Spiritual man series" and learn a bit more about your place in Gods plan. sincerely Lifesharer

Now as to DAD ERNIE : I agree with you: the KINGDOM of God is NOT a place but Gods manifested power 1Cor. 4: 20), authority and perfect will, (Ro. 14: 17-18) all of which were manifested in Jesus Christ, and it CAN be " in us" as Jesus plainly said . IF ( modified ) we are " Born again " John 3:5, for without regeneration you will remain a carnal (old man) soul who cannot be led by the Spirit ( john 3:8) or spiritualy discern the KINGDOM ( john 3:3) therefore incapable of " entering" ( participating in ) the KINGDOM ( john 3:5). Jesus said: ye will recieve power after that the holy Spirit has come upon you. "Acts 1: 8 . As I plainly stated in the bible study i have prepared that the KINGDOM of GOD is wherever these three things are manifested. Now, regeneration as a literal rebirth of our spirit is instant and complete, but RENEWING (of our soul) is a ongoing process thats why the writer said: "...but by his mercy he has saved us, by the washing of regeneration, ( note the comma) AND the renewing ...." , both are done by the Holy Spirit as the Living Word, in God. NOW look at Hebrews 4: 12. the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit by the sword of Gods word (Jesus Christ / Holy Spirit). this dividing is because we were once soulical, carnal and God needs to make it clear what is in us, (to us), that which is merely soulical and what is spiritual. Watchman Nee states that the soul and flesh taking occassion by the condemnation of sin ( which seperated us from God ) overwhelmed our spirit and took control of us ( dead in tresspasses and sins). This is why scriptures calls a carnal man one who is fleshly and soulical (un-renewed). We are in basic agreement but with some minor differences. i see regeneration proper as applying to what the greek word paliggenesia says it means: a LITERAL rebirth of our spirit ( see Ez. 11: 19, John 3:6, strongs concordance). And "renewing" as applied to our souls sanctification: as an ONGOING process: to the full measure of spiritual maturity as that represented by Jesus ( ephesians 4: 13 and specificaly Ro. 12: 2). The putting On the mind of Christ is a unilateral process of our willingness to lay aside all our own thoughts and take up the mind of Christ by revelation and renewing of the holy Spirit. So i would say that Jesus was right; the Kingdom had come with HIM, but it came to US (see the Lords prayer) and when we recieved the Holy Spirit (power and authority) and the ability to know Gods perfect will ( see 1 Cor. 2: 9-16) only possible because the spirit of man in us is restored to full communion with God again. The full transformation, when corruptable puts on incorruption; is when we recieve our new bodies at the return of Jesus. (1Cor. 15: 42) BUT God always starts with out spirit ( regeneration , then soul ( renewing ) and finaly our flesh shall be changed . regeneration is a specific word refering to ONE thing: our spirit) it has NO connotattiuon of soul or flesh in it. just as KINGDOM ( basilious) has no connotattion of salvation, or even heaven in it. ( see the strongs concordance) Many times i have seen how we are distracted in our flesh and gloss over the subtle things like a mere comma in Gods word or the real usage of a word/ concept from its current cultural terminology. These are those things that the washing of the water of the word is suppose to overcome in us. BY revelation of Gods Spirit to ours . ( see 1Cor. 2: 9-16) when we have finally laid aside all our own opinions and preconcieved doctrines of men, Gods Spirit stands ready to renew our minds and conform them to the very " mind of Christ". may you be made to know what is the riches in Christ we have through Gods plan and gifts of salvation, regeneration, sanctifcation, and Indwelling Spirit. All being part of our final redemption from sin and satan. Sincerely , Lifesharer

Hello all. Well its so often i see that when someone comes into a discuss late they have not followed its subtler nuances. anyway If you do NOt look up the verse (preferably in the KJV) you will not follow the simple clear logic of this discussion. TO GOD-MAN, I PRESENTED A SIMPLE TEACHING ON WHAT SCRIPTURES REVEALS THAT REGENERATION IS : A LITERAL CHANGE OF OUR NATURE FROM A DEAD SPIRIT , CUT OFF FROM GOD BY SIN AS ADAM'S WAS AFTER THE FALL ( sorry about caps ) to a regenerated, rebirth, born from above, restored, fully functioning, spirit able to have intimate communion with God as Adam Had BEFORE he sinned . I did not wish to go into this issue of one of its effects at this time but was ignored by some who showed little respect for these wishes and so am forced to spent time on it . Here is a partial list of terms that are speaking about this regeneration : new nature, new creation, born from above, newness of life, circumcision of the heart: new spirit, spiritual man, new man, divine nature ( as in the originaly created divinely created nature [we are not going to be divine]), of the measure and stature of Christ . remission of sin(S). All these are speaking of this same regeneration of our spirit to its originaly created state and functions, or it effects on us. Our spirits functions are : communion, intuition and conscience. And they work like this: by intimate communion with God , our spirit intuitivly (without need of the souls intellect, but by revelation from Gods Spirit ) KNOWS what is good and evil ( conscience). Because God is HOLY and IS truth. see 1 Cor. 2: 9-16 for verification of this statement. The Adamic " sin nature " is no longer our state or " nature" as our spirit is " regenerated " and able to have that intimate communion again. This means we have the answer of a " good conscience" ( (1peter 3: 21) able to Know the things of God ( 1 Cor. 2: 9-16) and to be led by the Spirit ( John 3: 8) and to walk in GRACE and NOT under the LAW's ability to condemn or convict us Of sins ( gal. 5: 18 and romans 8: 1-17) this regeneration is the foundation of spiritual growth since before it we were carnal men sold under the flesh and bound to do its lusts. But, as according to Romans chapter 6: When we are regenerated (at the time of water baptism as a fullfillment of the type and shadow of Israel passing through the red sea and being set free from bondage to Egypt [a type for sinful lusts] ) we are able then to walk with God in a living personal relationship, by the indwelling Holy Spirit. And this replaces the Law system with: GRACE, where there is therefore NO MORE condemnation ( Ro.8 :1). i did NOT say we are "sinless" i said that " sin is NOT imputed (Ro. 5: 13) this LEGAL standing of being cleansed of all sin and having been given the righteousness of Christ frees us from the legal requirement to do the full LAWS , because "we are DEAD in christ" ( every jot and tittle see Gal. 5: 18 and ro. 8: 1-17) and instead replaced this system with a new covenant: one whereby we are spiritualy minded ( ro. 8: 1-17 and Gal. 5: 16-17). In this new system our dead spirit having been quickened and by the Power of God's Spirit , we can obey His leading and thereby please God . a Man who is regenerated is not yet instantly spiritualy mature ( see Ephesians 4: 12-15) nor has thier soul been sanctified yet by the washing of the water of the word , thier mind being renewed ( titus 3: 5), having put ON the " mind of Christ" . But they shall: if they persevere, attain that state of being a spiritualy mature man or woman in Christ according to Ephesians 4: 13. (READ THE SITES) The legal standing before God because of the Blood of Christ and the imputed righteousness of Christ and HIS " faith , means that GOD SEES US AS " perfect". Our physical state is such that we can be obediant now (due to the intimate communion and Power from God by regeneration (Gal. 5: 16 tied to John 3:8) walk without error (sin)..... IF we are willing to be obediant to the Spirits guidance in all things. LOGICALY , this is a sinless state. Practicaly; we may yet sin and probably will until we have fully been conformed to the measure and stature of Christ (spiritual maturity). Now NO man has walked perfectly NEVER sinning before God except Jesus. and all men ( save Christ) has sinned , myself included, but for all intents and purposes the righteousness of God is fullfilled In Christ and given to us by GRACE. Regeneration is NOT salvation. these are two entiely different things . Regeneration FOLLOWS salvation and GOD chose to do this at the time of water baptism as a fullfillment of HIS type and shadow. This is easily understood ( irreguardless of pre- biased doctrinal positions by simply looking at these scriptures in this order( please do this NOW ): ro. 2: 28-29 ( compare circumcision of the heart and new spirit with Col. 2: 11-14. Water baptism is NOT essential to have salvation , it is simply WHERE and WHEN God has chosen to regenerated our spirit ( circumcision made without hands) by HIS Spirit ( JOHN 3:6) NOTE: water Baptism is NOT essential to HAVE salvation: it is a "works". There MUST be a distinction made between our LEGAL standing and our positional walk. While we stand : "cleansed of ALL sin" we will indeed sin again but not against the law, but the leading of the Holy Spirit (also called "grieving the Spirit" Eph. 4:30). a subtle distinction. It would be simpler if you simply asked for the entire bible study and then wrote to me about what you do not agree with or do not understand. You are obviously relying on 1 John 1: 7, BUT if you read it all in context it is 1John 1:7- 2: 2. The entire statement is in agreement with me: Obviously John thought that it was posssible to "sin not" : that we can walk without sinning again IF we keep his commandments (Leading by the Spirit ( Gal. 5: 16 and 1 John 2: 3-5) amoung about a hundred other verses. I often wonder why christian cleave so strongly to the idea that we who have a awsome God who made a way where NONE existed , would save us , only to leave us power less to overcome ? Overcome i say : our flesh our sinful lusts , our inquity ? Are you say that God who loved us would leave us in a hopless condition of always having to sin and always being in bondage to the flesh ? is that position actulay a position of NON faith and contrary to the clear scriptures in romans 6: 1-6? read those verse again Then read Gal. 5: 16 and romans 8: 1-17 which is the summation of the problem of sin in ro. 7. clearly GOD HAS MADE A WAY for us to walk in a GODLY, righteous walk with HIM. Read NOW Ro. 6:7-11. what does it SAY plainly? GOD has changed our " nature" BACK to that of adams , which is NOT defined as " sinless" as you have" but as one with a fully functioning lively spirit able to Know God in an intimate communion , and since God is HOLY we KNOW what is sin (1Cor. 2: 9-16)( thats why Adam and Eve knew of thier nakedness )after that they had sinned they were aware of it and the lost "covering" of Gods shekinah Glory. one last warning: if you claim that all of romans 6-8:1-17is allegorical and NOT literal truth , read carefully col. 2:4-8 and so on. is it mere vain philosophy and idle banter when God said : you are NOT under sin and shall NOt serve sin any more? is it not clear that what is stated in col 2: 10-17. YOU are either the very " BODY of CHRIST" or you are juts playing idle philosophical games and have not understood the basic of what " being born from above " IS ( John 3:6). The " divine nature being recreated in you (2 peter 1:4) wherein he again states what he ( GOD) has done for us and what the fruit of it shall be. a LITERAL regeneration , a LITERAL growing unto the measure and stature of Christ an LITERAL freedom from sin. READ the rest of 2 Peter and then read AGAINT all of Galatians which is our book on our liberty in Christ! But do it this time with faith in your heart not doubting. Nor is regeneration the mere indwelling holy Spirit which we do recieve a measure of at salvation as a " seal" of our salvation < not to be confused with the deeper " baptism of the Spirit", But as the vessel ( you) is sanctified, the Holy Spirit is able to have a deeper communion and a more holy witness through you. Finally, the ongoing "renewing" of titus 3: 5 is a soulical sanctification (also called spiritualy maturing) which is typified by Israels wilderness experience. Our soul is conformed to Christ our mind is renewed (Eph 4: 22-26) wherein it talks of having the " spirit of your mind renewed , and concludes that you " sin not " , Read all the sites i gave you as i gave them to you?......good . If you have NOT, you have NO authority to disagree with what I said ! Sincerely, Lifesharer PS and PLEASE get the bible study i have prepared for your further enjoyment and edification

Finaly to John P, You have made a basic exegesis error. You are looking at the latin or middle english. Such a error is basicaly flawed since the scriptures defined scriptures: paligennesia (regeneration in the KJV) is defined in Strongs concordance as a spiritual rebirth; "either literaly or figurativly". I encourage you to look this up yourself if you doubt this defintion. Its root words give the rest as i already stated, and as Ez . 11: 19 clearly states and John 3:6 and ro. 2: 28-29. If you do NOT look up the sites i give you how can you ask intelligent questions ? No offense intended. As for defintion 2: I find it misses the mark of accurate defintion while having some merit: its like saying : the car is red, it may be accurate but not the defintion of what makes up a " car". As for defintion 3 it is the same as number 2: both are missing the mark when you consider that its God's definition that's what is accurate. You would not use a dictionary of Mars languages to define Earth words would you? Jesus' defintion of regeneration is found in JOHN 3:6! God's defintion of regeneration is found in Ro. 2: 28-29 and col. 2: 10-?. Regeneration (rebirth or born from above: john 3:6) is a LITERAL restoration of our spirit to its originaly intended and created state: fully functioning and able to have that intimate communion with God that God created it to do. Whether it a totaly new spirit of just the old one restored is irrelevant. Further; it includes ( (renewing Titus 3:5) the idea of setting it free from the overshadowing ( heb. 4: 12) or bondage to the carnal man ( all of the flesh, and that part of the soul thats not conformed to Christ ) ALL of this was addressed clearly in my previouse posts so i am a bit confused why you seem to have totaly NOT seen it or understood it? Perhaps you should read the posts OVER a few times looking to see if the answers to your questions are already there, before reponding AND also >look up the sites i give. As for your LAST question : it is "inferred" that the "wind Not seen" (john 3:8) is like the personal private leading of the holy Spirit (personal private relationship ) that every born again ( regenerated ) person will walk in. It is by this "leading" that we can know Gods perfect will and participate in the KINGDOM ( john 3:5 "enter") I am sadden that some choose to ignore my request about the " further effects" of regeneration . It is important that you fully understand what regeneration IS before you attempt to grasp what it's effects will be. Regeneration is a literal restoration of our " sin nature ": a DEAD (cut off from God) spirit by sin. It restores (Eph. 2:1) our ability to Know God in a personal living relationship, and to have "good conscience" (1Peter 3: 21) and to be able to be led by the Spirit and under grace and NOT the Law) it is the foundation of spiritual growth to spiritual maturity and to the ability to exercise spiritual gifts and other functions of our spirit by God's Spirit. Please feel free to ask me for the bible study. THE NEXT POST WILL BE ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF REGENERATION ON THE BELIEVER,....... I HOPE . Sincerely , Lifesharer

Now as to SUPER JEW and John P i said i did not wish to enter into this specific issue as of yet! why are you then ignoring my request? I suggest you taske a little time yourself and read about these word topics using a concordance to find them: " sin NOT", "perfect", "Divine Nature" I think you will find it enlightening as to what we can be capable of . also consider that GOD said to satan:" have you considered my servant JOB who is PERFECT...." fINALY CONSIDER CAREFULY ROMANS CHAPTERS 6-8:1-17 AND gal. 5: 18 Ask your self this: If i am " dead" in Christ does the LAW have any ability to convince me or accuse or condemn me of sin? see romans chapter 7 specificaly. secondly since i am dead and the law has NO dominion ( jurisdiction ) over me , and i am walking in obediance to the leading of the holy Spirit in all that i can and am covered by Grace for that which i do not do<(ro. 8: 1-17) WHO is accusing you of sin? there is NO OT patriarch who did not fail in some way and fail to walk perfectly before God , YET God said Thier faith has saved them a walk with God is by Faith and NOT by works . it is based in being obediant to the LIVING God in a personal relationship, not a system of do's OR DON'TS. Consider this also : 1) we are washed of ALL sin when we repent and asK God to forgive us . 2) we have been given the " faith of Christ" . 3) we have been given the "righteousness of Christ". IT is clear that if we do " sin" there is NO law to condemn or pass sentence or to accuse us and even so the Lord will "convince " or convict us of sin but it is NOT a " sin unto "death" ( not " condemnation) unless we ignore this conviction ( 1 Peter 3:21 and Hebrews chapter 6) we walk under grace and NOT under the law which had no mercy but we were commanded : " DO it ALL and live!". We CAN walk "perfect" before God and we can overcome our flesh and walk in and KNOW his perfect will . That is the very testimony of the Word , over and over:" i write these words that you sin NOT ... paul said . But if you sin you have an advocate with the Father..." Weak men and carnal have said that walking without sinning is impossible, based on ONE verse that is speaking to men in general BEFORE salvation. BUt God has said (Ezekiel 11: 19) I will put a new spirit in you and cause you to walk in my commandments...) jeremiah 31: 33 I will write my commandments on your heart and ...." This is GOD'S promise and the ONLY logical way God would end his salvation: that you walk in the "measure and stature of Christ" Did Christ sin? Ephesians 4: 11-16. I know that I am walking in Grace and sin has NO dominion over me . I may not yet be walking in perfection BUt i am running the race to attain it as Paul said, and NOONE can condemn me because the Father does NOT!

hello again To address "dad Ernie" first: I Find that the scripture refers to a future KINGDOM ( matt 19:28) not to a future regeneration in context. Regeneration is used in both scriptures as exactly the same word: "Paliggenesia" And the future tense in Matt. refers soley to the KINGDOM. it is clear that regeneration is about us and is a spiritual rebirth ( JOHN 3:6)in context so your derivation of this verse is not logical. Jesus was saying that those who are regenerated ( followed him ) will be able to participate in the KINGDOM ( john 3:5) when iot is established and according to Jesus the KINGDOM is IN US NOW . IF we are regenerated and submitted to Gods perfect will and operating in His power and authority.(which is what the word KINGDOM means ) The kingdom is exsistant Now since Jesus finished the issue of legal claim satan made against us and has fullfilled the Law. IN Acts is speaks of the Kingdom coming with the Spirit of God, since at that time all the leagal flase claims satan made were thouroughly proven false, his legal claims over man and this world being found wanting. As for the second scripture in Titus , we see a two part operation which i clearly said. a regeneration and a RENEWING by the holy Spirit . " ...by the washing OF regeneration ( 1 Peter 3: 21), and the renewing of the holy Spirit ..." ( Heb. 4: 12) It is by careful study of the full context and a clear understanding of ALL the word and the meaning of paliggenesia that we see that there is a rebirth of our spirit AND a soulical process of renewing as two independant stages of a complete sanctification of the believer. These two stages are typed and shadowed by the red sea crossing ( regeneration ) and by the wilderness experience ( soulical sanctification "renewing". The washing of the water of the word , having our MINDS ( soulical) renewed... . I encourage you to get the bible study I have prepared so you can get a fuller understanding of this truth. I am afraid you not being careful enough over the precise meanings and contextual diagramming of these verses. Sincerely, lifesharer

I am sorry I should have addressed each comment in the first post. lolol. as to Gladiator: Thankyou. Now as to John P Your post is the fullest with content so it may take a bit of "muddying" to address each idea. First i thank you for that advice and its good advice. BUT lolol The entire study on regeneration i have prepared takes some 180 K ( about 20 pages lolol so i was being very concise . As for "generalized statements:" I have spent thousands of hours online seeking and teaching this study. I have spent many of them just looking for 1 christian with a hunger for the word. So actualy this is not a " generalization" at all but a salient fact based on my personal experiences. MOST christian in this country are cold or spiritual babes without a deep hunger for Gods word, and have little real grasp of the "meat" of Gods word. (you may be that exception) That's My experiencial opinion and witness after some 5 years online and fourty years as a christian in churches all over this country. Nothing important about it other than it saddened me to see this so prevalent. You have succiently stated my point: MOST Christian do not understand regeneration , nor walk in it because they do not know about it as a real experience we can have in Christ. This was not a "message" but an opening to share what I have learned through years of study, revelation and personal experience about what regeneration is, and its foundational importance to all christians. To get to the "meat" of this: Regeneration: from paliggenesia (Greek). means literaly or figurativly a spiritual rebirth. the two root words are palig refering to osscilation: as in a reversal or (re)turn or (re)wind, and genesia meaning a former nature or state of an ancient "generation". ( Strongs concordance) Coupled with John 3:6, Ro.2: 28-29, and Ezekiel 11: 19 we see that it refers to a literal rebirth (john 3: 3-8 (restoration or regeneration) of our human spirit by God. Now Adams "nature" was perfect before he sinned, as God had created him that way. The difference was that sin caused a "cutting off "(dead in tresspasses and sins Ephesians 2: 1) or "dead " spirit unable to have that intimate "face to face" communion with God as before. Thats why In Genesis we read that God said :" Where art thou Adam?" this being a metaphorical statement revealing the broken communion that had occured. Obviously God KNEW where he was. And this is why Jesus said in John 3:8 that those who are born again are able to be led by a personal private (inferred) communion of the Spirit. And is what Ro. 8: 1-17 is all about too. The " Adamic sin nature", or also called the "original sin nature" is that nature of a dead spirit cut off from God. Obviously. regeneration makes us a NEW creation ( 1Cor.5:17 and able to walk in "newness of Life" Ro. 6:4. We are returned to that former nature of an ancient generation ( Adam's) we NO LONGER HAVE a " sin Nature". Profound as this is to much of the "we cannot stop sinning" theology out there. (Let's not address this subject yet so as to finish the issue of what regeneration is, thank you, I won't respond to such comments as they would be out of order) So to begin properly we MUST correctly define what regeneration is. As i said its a "new nature" ( the originaly divinely created nature 2Peter 1: 4) which allows us to be led by the Spirit, to overcome the flesh (gal. 5: 16-17 and Ro. 8:1-17)to "enter" (participate in) the KINGDOM (john 3:5 Matt. 19: 28 John 1:12-13) , because we can start to grow spiritualy and eventualy walk in spiritual maturity: "of the measure and stature of Christ" ( Ephesians 4: 13) Well thats enough to start with. Please so as to not "muddy" the waters: try to keep your responses to the topic of: What precisely IS regeneration ? We will get to its ramifications in turn, I promise. Sincerely Lifesharer, PS if you are one who is impatient, i do have all of this study written out and ready for you to read ,Just ask me or GLADIATOR for it. lolol Lifesharer

Thank you for all your responses First to Botz I am not sure what your intent is in your response, but regeneration is a message directed to christians: who are already saved. Regeneration is NOT salvation. These are two entirely different concepts with two entirely different defintions. Thank you for the verse, again, but it is not really germain to the issue as regeneration follows after salvation as another experience ( fruit of ) with-in our total salvation experience. To see this you will need to identify regeneration clearly then note where (and when) this occures to us. Lifesharer

Regeneration is a foundational doctrine not well understood by most christians. From greek "paliggenesia" it means a spiritual rebirth. i am well versed in this subject, exhaustivly. Its root words refer to a retuirn to a former nature (as adam Had before he sinned). I encourage you to look at Ezekiel 11: 19 , John 3:6, Ro. 2: 28-29 and then Colossians 2: to see this defined. My question is why are christians so blind to this spiritual truth and its foundational effects in our spiritual lives? why are so many cold to this truth that Jesus emphasised in his teaching on it; more than any other he gave? (john 3:3-8 "verily" four times in five short verses!). And how can we reach christians with this message ? Sincerely, Lifesharer. Please contact me if you wish more info on this subject