oak

Thank you Frezno!

Oh Apologia*, (correction from Shiloh - I instinctively wrote Shiloh and I apologize)

If life is a matter of predertermined vessels made by God, for starters, what role do you attribute to redemption? Also why do we pray."And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil." (Matt 6:13). Lastly what is the purpose of Judgement?

There are two comments that caught my eye and I would like to address each one. There are of course more but I do have a time limit.

Apologia states: What is this idea of God loving Jacob and hating Esau based upon? It's right there in the text. That God's purpose according to election might stand. Jacob was one of the elect and Esau was not! To read this any other way is simply dishonest. Stick to the text!

Yes, the text stands. But there are important things that one may want to consider when reading the text. God is a Righteous and A Just God and I hope we don’t attribute randomness to God.

Bold believer states: It is GOD who chooses. So much for "free will", there IS no such thing. God is sovereign, not man. There is no favoritism in the matter; God could only show favoritism if he based his saving criteria on conduct. But the two had equal slates. Neither had done either god or evil.

I think the statement about Esau and Jacob calls for patience and faith not a general blanket statement about free will. There are many examples of free will throughout the Bible. Here are a few. First did Cain kill Abel by God’s will? If so, why did God confront Cain? Also why does the Bible call us to faith and belief in Christ if we have no will. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

I was wondering how members here deal with not doing or living Christ’s will during certain periods of their lives? Recently every area of my life is under attack. My prayers have been half-hearted and I have been negligent in terms of Church etc. I sometimes slide, due to the pressures of life. Is there anyone who has ways to persevere during these times? Also, a second question: do people know without doubt what talents God bestowed on them or is it trial an error? I’ll show later, why I linked these two questions together.

Oak

Chestertonrules

I think that is a stretch.

Check this out:

Gen 13

1 Jacob looked up and there was Esau, coming with his four hundred men; so he divided the children among Leah, Rachel and the two female servants. 2 He put the female servants and their children in front, Leah and her children next, and Rachel and Joseph in the rear. 3 He himself went on ahead and bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother.

4 But Esau ran to meet Jacob and embraced him; he threw his arms around his neck and kissed him. And they wept. 5 Then Esau looked up and saw the women and children. “Who are these with you?” he asked.

Jacob answered, “They are the children God has graciously given your servant.”

6 Then the female servants and their children approached and bowed down. 7 Next, Leah and her children came and bowed down. Last of all came Joseph and Rachel, and they too bowed down.

8 Esau asked, “What’s the meaning of all these flocks and herds I met?”

“To find favor in your eyes, my lord,” he said.

9 But Esau said, “I already have plenty, my brother. Keep what you have for yourself.”

10 “No, please!” said Jacob. “If I have found favor in your eyes, accept this gift from me. For to see your face is like seeing the face of God, now that you have received me favorably. 11 Please accept the present that was brought to you, for God has been gracious to me and I have all I need.” And because Jacob insisted, Esau accepted it.

12 Then Esau said, “Let us be on our way; I’ll accompany you.”

13 But Jacob said to him, “My lord knows that the children are tender and that I must care for the ewes and cows that are nursing their young. If they are driven hard just one day, all the animals will die. 14 So let my lord go on ahead of his servant, while I move along slowly at the pace of the flocks and herds before me and the pace of the children, until I come to my lord in Seir.”

15 Esau said, “Then let me leave some of my men with you.”

“But why do that?” Jacob asked. “Just let me find favor in the eyes of my lord.”

16 So that day Esau started on his way back to Seir.

First of all I think you’re quoting (Gen 33). The overwhelming evidence is that Jacob feared Esau and was very cautious with him. I’ll just mention what Jacob said to Esau during their meeting (which you quote as well) “… and I will lead on slowly, at the pace of the live stock that are ahead of me and at the pace of the children, until I come to my lord in Seir.” But Jacob didn’t do what he said but rather "journeyed to Succoth….” If everything was well, why didn’t Jacob follow his brother Esau, to Seir? Finally Paul, years upon years later wrote: [God saying] “… Jacob I loved but Esau I hated.” (Romans 9 13) I realize hate has different connotations thanks to Old Shep, but they are not positive. If Esau found favor with God, I don’t think Paul would have written something like that. For the record, I would like God to favor as many people as possible but in terms of Esau, I think God was not too favorable. As far as damnation, I conceed that I can't prove that but it's not unlikely.

Oak

PS AFaithfulone, I'm sorry I missed your post. Let us say that though Jacob played a part in going against Isaac, Isaac was the one who took action and made Isaac sell his birthright for a meal.

To OldShep: excellent post, I appreciate that kind of insight in terms of word definitions. Though I still believe doesn't change moods, it is our free will that enables us to come nearer or further away from God the Father. God the Son took on a human form along with His God nature, so that becomes a bit different.

Chestertonerules wrote:

"I don't think we can conclude from scripture that Esau was not saved. All we know was that he lost his inheritance. That was the path he was given by God.

Later in Genesis he seems to be a very successful and Godly man. He forgives the brother who cheated him and welcomes he and his family with gifts and love."

To Chestertonrules: I see what you’re saying but in (Romans 9,) Pharaoh is brought in as an example, following Esau. Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, both are examples of "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction....” (Rom 9:22)

Esau didn't care about his birthright thats the thing, he cared so little about it and what it contained and pertained to, all he could see and feel was his immediate need. Esau also didn't have an inkling of the spiritual side of things either and perhaps Jacob didn't either so much but God did and had a plan. Jacob with his mothers insistance and help did take the birthright but it was not stolen from Esau but they did trick good old dad. But if it had been Gods will for none of that to happen it would not have. God knew what was in Esaus heart and what was in Jacob's, He knew which would willinging follow and accept Gods rule in their hearts and lifes.

First off there is no scriptural support that Esau killed Nimrod that comes from the book of Jasher which is what the sages used to write that midrash. Jacob became the father of the nation of Israel just as God wanted it to be. Just as the birthright is physical its also spiritual and Esau failed at them both.

shalom,

Mizz

I thank all of you for your replies. Mizzdy, took the most effort so I will answer her.

Anyway, Mizzdy, with hindsight we can judge correctly (thank you for Nimrod insight). But let’s put it in human terms: Jacob loved Esau because he was an outdoorsman, loved hunting and fixing meals for his dad (Jacob) he was capable of taking care of himself while Isaac was the nerd. The saved father wanted the unsaved son to inherit the promise. Wow, when you are part of God do you not sense God’s Will? Jacob didn’t. Part of the reason I wrote this is many unbelieving friends find fault with God/ Jesus Christ. How can Christ make merchants flee from a Synagogue? How is it, that Christ disrespects his elders, the Pharisees? Well part of the reason I think is that faults can become victories in the Name of God. Greed for God, an overwhelming pre-occupation with God, a service to God only is good and justifiable. The point is Isaac was not great morally and didn’t sacrifice as a Christian should, yet this story gives a wide interpretation in terms of things we devote to God.

Oak

The scripture that always jolted me (in the Bible) is, “As it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated,” (Rom 9:13) How can that be? Juxtapose this with: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism. , (Acts 10:34) Contrast this with, : “though they were not yet born and had nothing either good and bad – in order that God’s purpose of election might continue not of works but because of his call….” (Rom 9:11). In all the wisdom I have read from "Worthy Members," I do not think anyone will answer this with authority. I feel the Bible is full of descriptions that humans can't perfectly understand and just barely touch upon the Glory of God. God is a constant and consistent Being, it is our human nature that creates the changes in assigning God with fluctuations.

Back to the verse…. Isaac and Esau were both far from perfect. Let’s take a look at Isaac: Isaac stole Esau’s birth right by giving him a meal when he was hungry (is this a noble act?) and faked being him (Esau) by putting on sheep fur when it came time for the blessing from Jacob (their father) – though prompted by his mother. Jacob won by deception. Doesn’t God love men who have no guile? Esau was a hunter and and depicted as killing Nimrod who had Adam’s cloak; truthfully I need help with this action of Esau. The best I found was, “Esau followed the path of death, for he killed Nimrod..." ((Midrash Rabbah Bereshit 65:16) - Pirkei D'Rebbi Eliezer chapter 31).”

The summation is rather simple. Isaac searched for God in his heart, a truthful search of what is truly important. His brother that was born first and was enamored of the world and searched for earthly glory.... So let us at least be honest with ourselves about our true search. I know scripture say’s that the older will serve the youngest and God will not be unheard. The most important part is what we in our inner hearts search and seek out. The initial verse is full of things that we might look at differently. Please feel free to comment.

You might try going at it a bit differently. Because your post does not make any sense at all. The first two paragraphs are totally unclear as to what point you are trying to get across. As for the third, homosexuality does have prostitutes within it, just as the heterosexual world does, so absurd? Not so much.

The Bible is about salvation, yes, primarily, but that does not negate the fact that it also talks about science, anthropology, military tactics, etc., it just does not deal with these things in minute detail. Every subject that one could name is discussed, in some way in the Bible, so your statement is false.

Well, to a degree, I agree. I tried to make a synopsis of the many topics on the board and it reads poorly. To make it clearer in the first paragraph, I was trying to express that morals are getting out of hand. The unbelievers have more to say than the belivers and that strikes me as strange. Plus the foundation of Christianity is being ignored for a more watered down version of Christianity. 2nd paragraph: An example of the confusion on the boards. In the case of saved by grace why can't works be incorporated as part of the expression of concern that comes with being saved. 3rd Paragraph: A continuation of some theories put forth on the boards. One was that homosexuality in itself is not wrong, it's all the fault of male prostitutes ( a true opinion given). Then another claim is God see's time like man. This is again a ridiculous position. Lastly though the Bible touches on many aspects of life but it can only be truly understood as a book of faith that opens the road to salvation. Ortherwise I don't understand why one would read it.

Finally sorry for the loosely put together post. It was an experiment that didn't go to well. I hope this clarification will help somewhat. I will not experiment with style again, I promise. I am not James Joyce.

Oak

I don’t like being on the outside but this is where I find myself. People are re-affirming themselves by putting forth their (only) opinions and it is frightening. Homosexual clergy are being married in a church and that opens up a trail of no return. Including pedophilia, bestiality and so forth it will go on and on. The unbelievers are having fun with as much legitimacy as those who screamed at Christ at the Cross, “bring yourself down.” Now, I have sins of my own and I’m not about to debate whose sins are more favored with God. Are my sins better than a homosexuals’: absurd thinking. Yes again, that is an insane proposition. Yes, I’m angry but Christ was never a hippie with peace, love and groovy as his Commandments attest to. Let’s sober up. The essence of Christianity is giving up your identity or ego, for Christ, period.

First let us look at the debate of saved by grace or works. If you love, really love somebody you learn to incorporate. That means if you married someone it doesn’t end at the ceremony!!!! You have to be Christ-like. And that means when you take a vow it doesn’t end with the vow. Christ is love and we have to be sensitive about what it means to be crucified with Him. Your born again experience is a start, a flash of the truth, maintained means expressing that love. Is this inexplicable, I hope not. If you are saved great, but if you feel you can let go of that obligation you are close to being damned. If you are a Christian think upon something you really loved. Did you stop thinking about it (constant prayer) did you want to start being pleasing (vigilance) did you start to believe there are others to love (fidelity). No, No, No, when you love you give everything you got and no less.

There are people here that surprise me. Homosexuality linked to a homosexual prostitute ring. That is absurd because a homosexual ring needs participants that are not exempt. God seeing time the same as man is another drug filled mind fantasy. The Bible is about salvation and not about science, anthropology or military tactics.... Get it yet? Is this so hard to comprehend? The bottom line and I’m guilty of being sinner since birth... Be on your knees for an answer. Then post. As far as the witness tapes, some evangelists promising money laughter here, have to start you thinking…. Be truthful to Christ and his sacrifice then talk about the limitations of God = and there are none.

Oak

You touched upon a post I wrote and deleted because it became convoluted. But one of the essential questions, I had, is why do we not see scripture as clearly as we need to as well as some people bending scripture for their own purposes. “For God commanded, Honor your Father and Mother…But you say, if anyone tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father’. So for the sake of your tradition you have made the void the Word of God.” Matt 15: 4-6. So Christians and Churches still engage in this type of behavior (not all).

Reading the posts I do find that though the Bible can be read from a historical or cultural point of view, but if that takes precedents over reading the Bible as a Book of Faith, this creates problems. Therefore its main purpose is Salvation. If you think a church is to be held on to for authority, I won’t totally disagree but I have difficulties with the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses for example. I can’t accept God being a man from another planet or disregarding The Holy Spirit.

In conclusion there are three wills at play, man’s will, evil’s will and God’s will. We are in the midst of warfare. I try to find people face to face that are in the Holy Spirit and with love strive to do God’s will, regardless of the cost. For them the Bible is less paradoxical. For those that read the Bible for knowledge and perhaps feel mental ascension is a viable way, it is nothing but a stumbling block. I see true faith as struggle that has hardships along the way. Suffering and self- sacrifice are inevitable even for those who were graced by Christ’s peace; I feel they care about the fallen etc. We are in a period of confusion that is reaching great heights; we can’t rely on ourselves but only Christ. How do we do this? Maybe one of the answers is that God knows are heart. I am not against knowledge and edification but if it’s not prioritized it becomes void. And if you feel lost in the wilderness repentance, forgiveness, love, humility, obedience, prayer and patience, are great gifts. Who can argue about the truth of the Beatitudes? There is so much more to say, but I pray Christ’s Truth will be written in our hearts, and then the Scriptures will come alive and surpass understanding.

Oak

PS I have a long way to go.

I got very interested in this post because it shows a dramatic caution of hypnosis. In a way it’s ironic that this attitude is not seen in posts that can really use it, such as fostering an attitude towards God in approaching him in an intellectual way, a scientific surgical glove approach. Our entertainment industry is full of people who try their utmost to keep our attention when our conscious is not alert to the many scenes in films, TV as well as music that is peppered with a view point and subliminal messages - that are for the most part certainly not Christ like. In an interesting article I read how modern man is being desensitized to death, how many killings and violence do people view on TV per year, I think it’s over a 1000. The main concerns in the article are for children. Even medication for pain, depression and anxiety will change passage ways in your brain. They can cause great harm when mixed with alcohol or non-prescribed drugs. They can lead to dependence and abuse. Kramer in his book on Prozac, it can develop a flaw where you can start tolerating the intolerable.

I was contemplating hypnosis for anxiety. I went in but did not fit the profile. To aware of my surroundings.... However hypnosis does not produce lasting effects and is mostly used to stop smoking for 3 weeks of abstanance. However you may have to go back for a “re-fill.” Hypnosis can’t cure things like your personality traits, nor can it cure addiction. It has limitations.

Forms of hypnotism can be good when an Olympic downhill racer, for example, just sits in a chair and see’s a perfect run. Post Stress Traumatic Disorder uses a type of hypnosis by use of a pen that your eyes concentrate on and enable you go the worst parts of your life. It isn’t a 100% cure but there are good results. I went through a phase where I locked into positive thinking. One book by Maxwell Maltz entitled “Psycho-Cybernetics,” in which he talks about how he left plastic surgery since most people he saw had esteem and no self-worth, rather than anything really being wrong with them. It’s an interesting book which delves into our perceptions of ourselves and our subconscious (which is a recorder of everything and does not in itself have any sense of right or wrong). Without it you would have to measure out inch by inch the movement of your fork while eating etc. In your sleep your mind works on problems and thereby we say, “sleep on it.”

To finish the story I looked at a trial on hypnosis and acupuncture, conducted by leading scientist. Acupuncture won by a big margin. My final thoughts, is have a good intent and always lean on Christ whatever you do because any method can be approached with Christ as first in mind. Pray for answers, but the myth of you acting like a chicken as soon as you hear the operative word is nonsense, at the very least the effect has a short span and for the most part you will be able to resist it, when even in a trance, you can raise your hand indicating you feel something is wrong. Always use your conscience and good God given sense. Again, watch yourselves for anything under the sun can be perverted by evil.

Oak

I read your message and want to commend you for your honesty. I’ll pray. Also, realize in this day an age an hour on the computer searching for ideas and resources can bring you a lot of information. As soon as I read your story, I went to the internet and found quite a few interesting things. And all I did was type ‘wheelchair vacations’. From renting some rubber made tires for wheelchairs for accessibility to the beach to organizations like Disney, I found a lot of services that can make things happen. Now I don’t know your particular situation in terms of coverage and severity but I can let you know there are even people who can perhaps visit your house that are specialists in your area. You’re not the first one with this problem and there are opportunities and charities out there.

The Lord gives us ideas, as well as strength and courage. Be creative. Maybe even call her school and find out what they suggest because they are probably prepared to answer you. I’ll even be glad to do the research for you if you are too nervous for that. Just PM me, and I’ll need general information such as the area you live in and the particulars of your child’s disease. Your friends who know you can probably come up with good ideas. Use your time creatively and you will find God supplying you with alternatives from everywhere. Get the search engines of your mind and your family focused on a goal. Your husband could certainly come up with ideas etc.

Best of the best,

Oak

Ok, lets make it to the point. Did you write what is in Italics with my lettering (a, b etc.)?

a)God has never experienced what it is to be sinful, because God never sinned.

b)God has never experienced what it is to be created or to cease to exist, as God is eternal.

c)God has never experienced what it is to not be God, as He has always been God.

e)God has never experienced any personal need, as He has always been entirely self-sufficient and in need of nothing.

Of Course you did. your assertions are implying that you know God’s Mind and Abilities.

a) Could God have a Characteristic that makes him know sin better than humans and makes Him have more experiential knowledge than us. Secondly Christ took up all the wotlds sin on the cross. The profound nature of just that can include the experiental knowledge of sin and taking it on punishment for the sin. You can't unequivocally say no.Third the Holy Spirit is within us, He is not sinning but feels are temptation and sin action. "...but the Spirit intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words." Rom 8:26 Does that not sound like experienial knowledge?

b -c) Christ for our sakes became human and was born in a human womb.. The Nician Council holds that Christ is fully human and fully God. We don't know how The Trinity's exactly share their union.

d) But there must be some reason God made humans and angels. It may be expressed by something in God's nature that we don't fully understand.

from previos post:

Also you’re implying that you know God’s Mind and Every Purpose? (Oak)

No, that is what you are trying to assign to me. I have neither implied nor indicated any such thing. (shiloh)

Yes you did by seeing him from your human perspective. Further, I believe God has many qualities that we don't know yet understand that includes experiential knowledge (Oak)

Oak

But are you claiming that you know of very attribute of God the Father. Does God have abilities that you don’t know about? Such as knowing a thought or emotion that would agree and supersede the experiential method? Also you’re implying that you know God’s Mind and Every Purpose. I know you can have difficulty in your understanding the Bible. And in many cases you only can give your subjective interpretation. Try these:

“The Lord saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every intention of thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry he had made man on earth... Gen 6:5.

“And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what will they do. And nothing they propose to do will now will be impossible for them .” Gen 11:7

Please explain why did God feel sorry? Also why didn’t He start with different languages to start with? Also, do you feel you could have come up with better tempting questions then the Evil one to Christ? While you’re at it can you give me an explanation of what God was talking about with scientific facts, when speaking to Job about “storing snow” and the rest (all rhetorical, if you like)?

Realize you’re no wiser than the kid who wrote in, “if God knew Adam and Eve would sin, why didn’t he prevent it.” In fact according to you why did He create them with His Self Sufficiency?

I expected much more from you,

Oak

PS But then again I don't really know you.

Shiloh, you continue to answer only certain questions (maybe to prolong the thread), makes me feel that you don’t believe God is One. And if you believe in Christ certainly that includes experiential knowledge of humans. Also, God is in a dimension of no time as well as being in our present. Even evil has that ability in showing Christ all the kingdoms of the world. This coupled with being an All Knowing Creator, does make him knowledgeable of the experiential including death. Where are you going with this? "Mental Ascension" by Shiloh?

Thank you Fresno Joe for actually bringing clarity. And you prompt me to say that the Bible is subjective propositional evidence.

Well, first I have whole post about treating the Bible that includes God in a reverential manner. In essence not using knowledge to come forth with new doctrines based on knowing of language or taking an 11th grade science or philosophy course. No irreverence is shown as of yet and the subject matter is in the grey area so I will answer. You took a question that is usually posed to man, a believer. A Christian can have subjective* propositional knowledge based on the Bible but as far as far as experiential knowledge, a non-believer will say, “you have not met or spoken with God?” “Have you believed because you have seen me? “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed,” John 21:29.

As far as your direct question, Bless and praise Christ in the strongest of faith and reverence. He condescended to have experiential knowledge of humans by becoming a human, and not with prestige and earthly honors. And, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow, to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” Rom 14:11 None will dare say to God, you don’t know what it’s like to be human.

Oak

* correction.

Are you trying to tell us that you get dangerous when you get bored???

Well out of the responses I have anticipated - I consider them gifts even when ugly - this one took me by surprise. I'm fine, though I am my own worst enemy. Thanks for the humor, if that was intended. We miss out a lot when not seeing each other's facial expressions. And thank you for your post. lol

“Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. Matt 10:39

First of all there is the highest form of losing your life to Christ and that is martyrdom. You don’t choose the time and place, you dread the thought, and I pray that cup will pass us. But within these words I find there is a call to lose yourself to Christ while being alive and I wish that on everyone in God’s time. Since I was young I was fascinated with fame and fortune; I wanted to be a star in chess, tennis, and music. I felt that was the only way to live - to be known and sought after and have money. Existence is drab, grey and there is the waiting in lines, and the filling in forms. I vowed that it would never happen to me. I would stand out and would be different from the rest of humanity.

And to a certain degree I had these things happen but they were mostly negative. I stand apart mostly because of my depression and anxiety. Yet, what I loved most in chess, tennis and music was when I lost myself and was totally immersed in the moment. Life had meaning. I didn’t really think about that at the time. Friends of mine lost their lives to drugs and I have to watch alcohol. We can lose ourselves to the most horrid of things. Then there is money you can lose yourself to it by feeling totally secure and respectable; but you may fail as a Christian because your trust is mostly in your money and not in God. “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the Kingdom of heaven.” Matt 19:23 Therefore it’s good to give your life to Christ, but be aware it might be a nominal giving. Know that the least in this world, realize they are living on a string - their fate is not in their hands. It may be poverty, persecution, disease and so forth.

So is it as simple as I once asked a priest, “the people who have a poor, bad life, go to heaven; the people who have a good life go to hell?” It’s not that simple because David wasn’t poor but Job suffered for a time, yet regained wealth. There is no doubt (in my mind) that you have to have an honest need for Christ. In this day and age, it’s getting easier and easier to want to lose oneself. It may be a good time to lose yourself totally to Christ. “Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:3 When there is something terribly missing in your heart and you need to fill it up. That’s the first step. If you have already committed yourself to Christ, it may be asking Him to keep that type of faith within your heart till you meet again.

In Christ,

Oak

PS Sorry for posting so many times but I am waiting on doctors calls.

The Life of Jesus Christ who is the Living expression of God, the Living Word, is to be expressed in gospel proclamation that shares the "word of truth," the "word of life," the "word of salvation." II Timothy 3:16 indicates that "all scripture/writings are profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be adequately equipped for every good work" (which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them - Ephesians 2:10). It is true that the Bible is to be taught, and that God has gifted some as teachers (Ephesians 4:11; I Corinthians 12:28; Romans 12:7). But the process of Biblical instruction (teaching), and the product of the instruction (Bible-knowledge) must not become ends in themselves. It appears to me that there has been the perpetuation of a poisonous and counter-productive pedagogy in evangelical ecclesiasticism, a "teaching model" that perpetuates book-religion, Bible knowledge, and getting "fed" through Scripture instruction. This creates dysfunctional Christianity, mere Christian-religion, which does not issue forth in the outworking expression of Christ's life. Christianity is not a book-religion! Christianity is Christ functioning as the expressive Word of God in man.

It’s ironic that from a man that wants to put the Bible in as secondary source, he uses it as his main source to prove his point. That makes no sense to me. I understand his point that the Bible should not take precedents over Christ Himself but when does it do that? Where do we find this information? In the Bible itself. The Epistles argue that the Jews tried to get saved by law and didn’t lean on of faith. “For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.” Yes the Bible itself shpw's us the misuse of scriptures within the Bible. Pretty amazing.

What is the Bible? “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace and are turning to a different gospel – not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.” Gal 1:6-7

I am personally persuaded that if you truly seek the promise, The Holy Spirit will prompt you or deter you, according to God’s will. A personal example comes to mind. I was in a group setting where some people were not liked and even made fun of. So, I wanted to help. And I made friends with them, to show the cruelty of others. I did not pray to God, I did not seek His council because I thought it was obvious. My attempt to do good (perhaps by boasting myself) turned into a disaster. Not because I was doing good but because my faith was weak. It was a very unpleasant time, here I was doing, good yet rebuked by God. I came to the task unprepared and was paid my just reward. I was humbled then and now know that pride was part of my actions. The Bible exhorts and calls us to action. It’s a journey and it doesn’t always result in victory. Those who use it in an inappropriate way – if they truly seek Christ - will be notified of it – I truly believe that. Thank you FresnoJoe.

PS Methinkshe, I read the whole article but chose to just quote the last paragraph.

Thank you, methinkshe and Smalcald for your respective posts.

Methinkshe, I feel the article you brought up can be a thread on its own. Certainly, I never intended to say The Bible supersedes Christ. I’m in search of the Holy Spirit to guide me and find people in the forum and other places that are alive in the Spirit. However as the case with Church and Bible they have a part to play in terms of guiding us. And guides are not to be treated disrespectfully. If you are approached by a person interested in Christianity how do begin to guide him and what do you refer him to? The state of your heart and conscience and intent are very important in terms of dealing with anything that gives us an understanding and if rightly kept will point to Christ and keeping faith in Him.

Smalcald, you are a fighter who has found what the good fight is and I believe and pray that you will be a champion in Christ in the 12th round. You are not a lukewarm person and may that serve you well in this life and the one to come.

Oak

This is certainly not a happy ending In Christ. However the most important part is you had a meeting with them, it was a time for resolving the matter, and they agreed with you. That agreement though not written is binding. If they value their promises, they could have an opportunity, to call you and say that they are having doubts about your directives. We are sinners; the church can be likened to a hospital. But if let’s say your Doctor examines you and prescribes you medication and warns you to avoid certain foods or situation, to get healthy you follow the recommendation. As far as telling them to leave the church, I don’t know about your specific church and dogma. Wouldn’t the church elders want to meet with the brother? This is the best I can do to help.

Oak

I thank and agree with what most people on the post have written. However, I do feel the debates are open to any or many views; I don’t want to come off as some kind of Grand Inquisitor, and repress or disregard anyone. I don’t want people to go to hell. But I am concerned that some Christians are not respectful of the Bible. And treat it like a science or history book. Know you are dealing with God. Some scripture to ponder:

Old Testament

“…Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God (it contained the two stone tablets containing the commandments) and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God struck him down there because of his error and died… Sam 6:6-7.

New Testament

Now the Pharisees were the priests responsible for teaching scripture.

"They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch." Matt 15:14

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in." Matt 23:13

Now the Pharisees were the guardians of scripture at the time of Christ.

Now there is much more I can cite. Therefore I feel Christ keeps attention to how use the Word.

We’re using Sacred text. The point I keep mentioning is now I’m seeing less or no reverence for the Bible from Christians.

Oak

There used to be more freedom of discussion and less dictatorial authority. As you said 1=3. Though all agree, should anyone wish to discuss, the discussion is ended. As I pointed out in another post brother in many parts of the world means something different than it does in the English language. It means cousin, brother-in-law and brother. The English language is not absolute. neither is any language there are so many difficulties in the translation of a word or meaning in a paragraph or book. We miss out a great deal by not being open to ideas. The Bible stands firm in its meaning - there is no question but after so many translations even going back to the original - look in our time the meaning of the words 'gay' and 'cool' generations from now would question and argue over the meaning of a phrase just by those 2 words.

Discussion is good if it offends the way one thinks of a topic look that person should look away and let the rest discuss.

There is learning in discussion as long as there is no hostility.

First of all not all Christians believe, 1=3. I also put my basic beliefs down of which other Christians might not agree with. Not every Christian denomination believes in the Holy Spirit in the way I put forth. I think all things can and should be discussed; I am free not to participate. My main point was to openly react to what I find is a new approach to viewing or discussing the Bible. That is discussing it just like any other book from people who consider themselves Christian.

This comes at a frightful time where we see churches changing doctrine due to man’s dictates. What is more the inclusion of homosexuals is just the start of confusing Christians. On the horizon there are going to many new inventions – such as genetically changing the DNA of a person. How we handle these show our view of the Bible and our integrity as Christians. My concern is that we never lose sight of the Bible being a book of Faith. If we approach it through a system of linguistics or logic and hold to opinions that are anti-faith, we will see the Bible as a fantastic History book. There is a reverence and approach that is lacking that will cause confusion and could be likened to a fun and game approach. I have engaged or sometimes just read the views of atheists, skeptics and Muslims etc. Their point of view is clear. Christians have argued and should continue to argue in terms of their set of beliefs; and most hold their belief as sacred and their challenges come from a tradition that most of us are aware of like OSAS etc. They are serious about belief and the Bible. But what I’m beginning to see is an approach by Christians that is equivalent to a crossword puzzle. I don’t mind discussing the Bible with them but what I see from them is lack of concern for the topic and lack of understanding about faith. That scares me. Because it is not knowledge of the Truth that is being sought but rather a game. I admit there are gray areas. But I see a trend that is destructive and that is starting to manifest itself. It’s delving into the Bible without a soul. I believe the Bible to be a guide to a soul and I feel most people that I have spoken to feel their putting thought into their salvation which is very real for them. I feel as Christians our intent is very important. In closing, I am seeing Christians that take on the Bible without concern for salvation.

Oak

Recently, I have encountered a dangerous trend in worthy. It supersedes the atheist and skeptic mode. For the first time I now see that people are coming towards the Bible in a semi-scholastic, sophomoric way. They basically lean on their own knowledge.

To start with (humor me) a basic guide to logic – a=b. If (a) is true then (b) is true. If insects share some common characteristic than we can easily put them in this category. Therefore, insects=mosquitoes. There are thousands of permutations of the model including fallacies with arrows, unequal signs and so forth.

Similarly, there are musicians who have little bit of knowledge and try to impress others with their “unparallel” view of music and say they mastered diatonic scale. Well all scales are based on the C scale and all they’re saying is that they found a different note to start with. Yes there are minor keys but still based on the c major scale. That’s, do(I) re(2) mi(3) fa(4) so(5) la(6) ti(7) – do (repeat 1 in a higher pitch); minor: do(1) re(2) me -flat note one behind (3) fa (4) so (5) le - flat note (6) te - flat note (7)- do. Rock is based on I, IV, V= do ©, fa (F), and so (G)- though keys can vary, you can play “Twist and Shout,” “ I Love Rock n’ Roll,” “La Bamba” etc., all are, playable with these three chords. With a little variation you can Play Little Red Corvette, Why don’t we do it in the Road (adding 11 note). If you want to go for a touch of the esoteric : do©, Flat le (Am), fa (F) so (G) which is I-6-4-5 = Run Around Sue, Beyond the Sea, Goodnight Sweet Heart, I Will, You Take a Piece Of Me (minus bridge).

Why am I going through this pain? To show you everything under the stars has its own purpose and system except the Bible. In the Bible, 1=3 (a logical contradiction) in terms of God and the Trinity.... The Bible has God’s Mind at play. It doesn’t fit the earthly scheme of things. Even in terms of common sense, a Virgin Birth, a Crucifixion and then a Resurrection of the Son of God for our Salvation and the conquering of death (only Christian dogma); the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. It’s beyond any thought process known to man, yet I believe. I know in my heart it is the Truth and I have the freedom to choose it or not. Know I have nothing against – in fact encourage – people finding out more. But something is breaking down from the questions of the past. Internet teens will be saying where is the Atom Bomb mentioned in the Bible? With genetic science growing soon you will probably be able to give our kids special features (like looking like me, kidding). What will our response be then? Also, we are mired in the 60’s boom generations; there will be opportunities to get yourself killed before your time (voluntarily or not). And what’s more, science has developed a memory pill – it could have been on the market except it causes PSTD (post traumatic disorder).

Most importantly, where do we stand morally? Do we want Worthy to be a quiz show? I know, this started with a sophomore-type that knows some logic terms (but probably never read Socrates or Aristotle) making a cool stance on homosexuality. Well, you know, I would like as many people saved as possible, I had two seminarian friends who were homosexual friends but died of aids; I hope Christ accepts them. He will not accept them or anyone that has, “I have all knowing proud approach towards God or the Bible.” In short morally, if anything we went downhill. And God is unchangeable. By the Bible we know enough about Salvation but we don’t know or think like God. Yet I find more and more, the new trend is not following God morally but for educational purposes and to make a statements about how “bright” you think you are. What a waste.

Oak