larryt

keep studying This entire thread makes me tired. To earnestly content for the faith means just that. It is the fact that men do not have convictions nor are they confident in what they believe. I can never tire of serving my Lord. God is sovereign or He is not. (Most do not know what the sovereignty of God really means nor have they thought much about it.) Man is totally depraved or he is not. God loves everyone? Tell that to the inhabitants of Sodom or those that live in Noah's day. God loves His people and hates all the workers of iniquity. The saint will persevere by trusting in God alone and not anything in themselves, or they can walk away because they have free will and trust they can hold on. The adversary is always trying to put heresies in the mind of people and they are necessary to show who really believes and who doesn't.

The idea of predestination without foreknowledge is either the result of taking scripture out of context or not knowing all of what scripture has to say about the subject of predestination. We must take all of scripture into account when we come to an understanding. If we do not, we can easily be led astray with having just partial understanding. By this are you saying that I am not taking into account ALL Scripture? This is true that we can be led astray if WE do not look at the whole picture. We read about foreknowledge being before predestination in Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." What does it mean that God foreknew? Foreknew what? God, being Omniscient and Omnipresence is able to look through time to know who will and who will not choose Him. This means that everything that ever happened, is happening and will happen is in front of Him always. The idea that God chooses whom He will without the person ever having a choice goes against the very reason why Jesus came. This is the point I was getting at. Foreknowledge is not about Omniscience or Omnipressence. It is not about man's choice. If God chooses based on a man's choice then it is not a Sovereign God choosing whom He will. Ro 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? You have not explained how Jesus NEVER KNEW them..... Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. And if you do not understand what it means to be foreknown of God you are missing a major part of what it means to be saved. The verse that is most popular in the whole world is John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." If predestination was true without choice, this would not be in scripture. It would have to read something like "For God so loved His chosen that He gave His only begotten Son, that those whom He chose would not perish but have everlasting life". But God chose the words "world", whoever" and "should" for a reason. It describes choice. We have the ability to choose whom will will follow. We read of this in Jushus 24:15 "And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." Does this mean God is not Omniscience or Omniscient? Not at all. The ability for us to choose is His plan, not ours. Does this mean God is not Sovereign? Not at all, since He created us with the ability to choose. Does this mean that God is a respecter of man? That depends on what you believe that verse is speaking to. The word respecter is not speaking to the will of man to choose, but that He will not follow what mans decides if it goes against His will. In other words, if a man decides that God has to accept him the way he is because that is his choice, God will not respect that persons decision to be accepted while being out of His will. That does not mean that we don't have a choice, for 1 Corinthians 13 is all about love. There is no room for love to be forceful in this passage "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails". God gives us the ability to choose if we will follow Him or not. He will not force Himself on us so we have to accept. Everything about salvation has to be a willful act of the one seeking salvation. The idea that man has the ability to choose is not the question. Adam was created with the ability to choose and he used that choice to disobey. What was the result. He became totally in bondage to sin. His thinking, his emotions, his will, his flesh, everything was totally in bondgae to sin. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. This whole post boils down to do you believe that man is totally depraved as one of the points of Calvinism or do you believe that man is only wounded and can raise himself from the dead, see though blind from birth on his own ...... choose to love God on his own. After all you seem to say that God bases His choice in salvation on those that He sees will choose Him if I understand your point.

Nobody reads that far back. To be honest I've noticed the same sort of thing with other posts. It isn't you. Folks read the current page or the pages of content they follow since their last post and that's it. To add fuel to the fire I don't believe that folks even consider the words they read for more than a second or two, just enough time for a knee jerk response. Certainly few come to these activities with a desire to learn something new. Opinions abound and the major impetus for participation is to vomit one's thoughts onto the internet. There is little or no reception of scholarly input here. Scripture quoted like holy bullets fired at one's opponent is about as far as it goes. Have you looked on more popular sites such as the news? CNN is the big one. CNN is more like an electronic spittoon than a place to get accurate or intelligently composed public information. There's also a lot of computerized censoring going on that doesn't help much. But there are way$ around it, if you know what I meen. It isn't you oneLight. If your posts are ignored, use the event as an opportunity to reiterate your assertion in a slightly different style. Think of it as an exercise in English composition. It certainly isn't an exercise in cerebral digestion by the reader(s). but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft... Actually you have not read many of the posts here. If you did you would notice that I have been posting here consistantly for several years. For me this is the most important thread because it is the heart of the gospel. Either man is totally depraved or his isn't; either election is unconditional and based solely on God's sovereignty or it is conditional and based on something in man; either Jesus died for every single person that ever lived and saved them or He died for his people and saved every single one not loosing any; either God's grace is INVINCIBLE (rather than irresistable IMO) or it is not; and either the saints persevere or they don't. Just be patienct. I am away for several days at a time and don't get on line al the time. Just be patienct. I am away for several days at a time and don't get on line al the time. Hi, Onelight I addressed your questions back in post 1345 page 68. Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me? Actually, history shows that you were responding to rjp34652 in that post because it was the post right after that where you told me to be patient and you will answer. I am not ignoring any post you address directly to me. So to keep it straight and inline, the next post after this is my post for you again to answer directly. I apologize it was 1344, and I was saying in 1346 that I don't answer all the time the same day as I don't get on the computer every day. So please check 1344. I do in fact try to check all the posts in this thread and give an answer when I can and find it relevent or in response to what I have already posted. And I will try to answer all that is addressed to me sometimes not right away and sometimes because I need to pray and study as to not be misunderstood as far as possible.

Does a baby have life before the seed is planted in the egg?

Just be patienct. I am away for several days at a time and don't get on line al the time. Hi, Onelight I addressed your questions back in post 1345 page 68. Have you decided not to discuss this any more with me?

Yes I was chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world to be transformed into His image because the scriptures say that whosoever shall call on His name shall be saved(Rom 10:13). And Rom 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Therefore, seeing as how I received Him when the gospel revealed to me my sinfulness and my need to have my sins forgiven, they also told me that God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. I believed Him and received Him as my Savior therefore as the Romans 8 passage says, all things work together for good to those who God, to those who are the called according to His purpose and the next 2 verses being in context must be true also because they were inspired by the Holy Spirit of Truth. Therefore, being an heir with Christ I am sealed unto the day of redemption. But when the scripture says God commands all men to repent, I believe He commands all men to repent and that they are capable of obeying. Capable yes, they have an ability to choose. Willing no, the sin nature hate God is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. The key word is subject. Put this in context. Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. First someone has to hear and secondly be thirsty and thirdly willing. Those that do not hear( see John 10:26), that are not thirsty, and are unwilling won't take of the water of life. And this is God enabling the person to respond by FIRST giving him life and changing his heart and opening his ears and giving him eyes to see. He that has ear to hear let HIM hear. He that doesn't have ears to hear won't(will not) hear.

Brothers, forgive me for once again butting into the middle of your discussions. Larry, you read the KJV, "pricking of the heart is biblical". The Holy Spirit convicts the hearts of men and they either reject, or accept the message being delivered. Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? The same basic message led to Stephens death because men were pierced(pricked) in heart or convicted. Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. Two different aspects of what happens when the Holy Spirit gives the light of truth to mankind. It will either harden, or cause one to fall on the mercy of God and receive the Lord Jesus Christ. Onelight was correct. When I asked the question I was thinking more along the lines of Heb. 4:12 but thank you for pointing out the direct reference. The piercing of the heart happens to those that believe and also to those that do not believe. This does not make it the determining factor in why someone believes and someone does not. So the question still stands that I pose: How does a spiritually dead person do anything????

I noticed the one you was posting to is away for a few days and as you state in your first sentence, I have not kept up except with a hit and miss reading. But I did notice above that the other was made aware that one of his terms was not scriptural and I noticed these two words I highlighted are not in the scriptures either, regardless of which is preferred. And you mentioned His sheep hear His voice, but they are already saved if they are His sheep so that is not strange. And John 1:12 says one becomes a child of God by receiving Christ so they cannot be His sheep prior to receiving Him by faith. Calvinist do have a way with explaining their opinions which are contrary to scripture, like the elect are regeneration in order to believe, but they are not forced to believe but do so freely. But they do not believe that the gospel has the power of God in it with enough power to convict the sinner of their sins because they are dead in their trespass and sins. But they over look the fact that they too, are dead in trespass and sin before they are regeneration in order to believe freely. Seems like it works for one group but not for the other. I don't recall where that is found, could you point me to that passage(s). Not to mention that God calls all men to repent (Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,) Sure sounds like must include all men every where to repent. How can it be even the Calvinist special term, a general call if they can not hear the call? Until both sides can use the same words printed in the scriptures equally, there will be no resolutions or coming to terms as I see it. Just remarked because I saw the contradiction that one should use scriptural terms and wanted to see if that applied to both sides of the issue. Do you believe I am a Calvinist? Why? Have you read why as I have stated that I am not a Calvinist? And the words invincible and irresistible are the terms used in the OP of this thread. I bellieve the Arminian possition is contrary to scripture and fail to address many of the paradoxes in the bible. In the eyes of God His sheep have always been His sheep. In time and space here on the earth there is a particular moment in time when they are BORN of the Spirit. A baby starts physical existace when the egg is fertilized. If you do not understand eternity past and future you will not grasp what I am saying. God does not have to deal with time, He is beyond time and if you have eternal life you will understand. Christ is REVEALED in His children at a particular time but in eternity they have alway been know of God. Were you chosen/elected before the foundaiton of the world? If you are not chosen then you are not His as He never knew them that claimed to be His followers.

Just be patienct. I am away for several days at a time and don't get on line al the time.

Nobody reads that far back. To be honest I've noticed the same sort of thing with other posts. It isn't you. Folks read the current page or the pages of content they follow since their last post and that's it. To add fuel to the fire I don't believe that folks even consider the words they read for more than a second or two, just enough time for a knee jerk response. Certainly few come to these activities with a desire to learn something new. Opinions abound and the major impetus for participation is to vomit one's thoughts onto the internet. There is little or no reception of scholarly input here. Scripture quoted like holy bullets fired at one's opponent is about as far as it goes. Have you looked on more popular sites such as the news? CNN is the big one. CNN is more like an electronic spittoon than a place to get accurate or intelligently composed public information. There's also a lot of computerized censoring going on that doesn't help much. But there are way$ around it, if you know what I meen. It isn't you oneLight. If your posts are ignored, use the event as an opportunity to reiterate your assertion in a slightly different style. Think of it as an exercise in English composition. It certainly isn't an exercise in cerebral digestion by the reader(s). but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft... Actually you have not read many of the posts here. If you did you would notice that I have been posting here consistantly for several years. For me this is the most important thread because it is the heart of the gospel. Either man is totally depraved or his isn't; either election is unconditional and based solely on God's sovereignty or it is conditional and based on something in man; either Jesus died for every single person that ever lived and saved them or He died for his people and saved every single one not loosing any; either God's grace is INVINCIBLE (rather than irresistable IMO) or it is not; and either the saints persevere or they don't.

When the Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin, where does this take place? Is it in the body? Nope, the body does not hold our spirit. The mind? No, because in the mind we can just brush it off as a thought, but the heart is a place where we cannot ignore. God spoke of the intent of the heart in Genesis 6:5 "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." The phrase "prick the heart" is a descriptive phrase describing what is going on, like "stub your toe". You have not explained what you mean scripturally by "pricks the heart" or where you come up with this idea. Men need to stick with God's Word instead of trying to explain their own ideas to get around some of the paradoxes that cannot be explained by the natural man. The passage you refer to is not about the spread of the Gospel so much as a condemnation of the world. The sheep have no need of having their heart pricked. Jesus said that they WOULD hear His voice, hear the Spirit, and Will follow Him. Those that are not His sheep won't! The idea of predestination without foreknowledge is either the result of taking scripture out of context or not knowing all of what scripture has to say about the subject of predestination. We must take all of scripture into account when we come to an understanding. If we do not, we can easily be led astray with having just partial understanding. We read about foreknowledge being before predestination in Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." What does it mean that God foreknew? Foreknew what? God, being Omniscient and Omnipresence is able to look through time to know who will and who will not choose Him. This means that everything that ever happened, is happening and will happen is in front of Him always. The idea that God chooses whom He will without the person ever having a choice goes against the very reason why Jesus came. The verse that is most popular in the whole world is John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." If predestination was true without choice, this would not be in scripture. It would have to read something like "For God so loved His chosen that He gave His only begotten Son, that those whom He chose would not perish but have everlasting life". But God chose the words "world", whoever" and "should" for a reason. It describes choice. If foreknowledge is omniscience then God is not omniscient. Jesus said I never knew you to those that claimed to do good deeds. Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Secondly if foreknowledge is knowing before hand then salvation is based on those that will choose and not God's sovereignty. It makes God a respecter of persons because He "respects" them because they will choose and those that won't are not chosen. And the "cosmos" translated world, does it mean every last person that lived in all the verses that it is used? Or is it a general term determined by the context as in: Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. There is clearly a distinction between the believers/disciples and the rest of humanity here. So now how does your theology reconcile the fact that Jesus will not loose any of His people/sheep? And the pharasees were not His sheep and do not believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep to begin with. Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus came to save His people from their sin. Those that are not His He did not come to save. And how do you understand this verse. Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Hi saved, Have you read much in this thread? I have mentioned several times that I am not a Calvinist though I believe a lot of what he taught is true. I have mentioned several times that I believe that Invincible is a much more accurate understanding of the grace doctrine. Even the elect resist the grace of God before submitting to God. The warning to "harden not your heart" is mentioned 4 times. Keep in mind who this is written to. I see this as a warning to believers. Believers can harden their heart and not loose salvation but can provoke God to chastise them. Also it says that Pharoah hardened his heart but it also says God hardened his heart. It also says God caused David to nunber the people. 2Sa 24:1 ¶ And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. This shows the Sovereignty of God. The sense of Heb. 6 is not stating a warning but in reality a reasurance. I am currious which version you use. The KJ say If they shall fall away. Which poses a hypothetical question for the purpose of making the point that Christ only died once. In verse 9 the writer gets back on tract reassuring his hearers that this is not the case with them. (On a side note: if you are using a version that is copyrighted you need to mention the version or you could be in violation of copyright laws.) And this gets into the issue of total depravity. Where does it say God is obligated to save anybody? Now I will ask you a question. Since you answered a post that was a dicussion with someone else how do you understand the verses I mentioned. Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. did they believe because they were ordained to etenal life as the scripture says or were they ordained to eternal life because they believe. And how does that fit with John 6 & 10 Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Would you like to talk to one? An ex dead man I mean. I am an ex-dead man. He gave me life and then I lived, He opened my eyes and then I saw, He took away the stony heart and put in a heart of flesh that I could believe. We are saved by grace -- getting everything that we need even though we don't deserve it; through faith and that is even the gift of God. I know from my experience that OneLight is correct. My heart was hard, stone, and God had to crush it, prick it, rebuild it, over a period of months before I accepted Jesus. I knew it was the Holy Spirit talking to me in that hardened state, and I fought against Him, often just lying on the bed sobbing, why me, why me? I had the choice to continue in my sinful state, or I had the choice to choose Jesus. And I knew this. The alternative of not choosing Jesus, which the Holy Spirit had shown to me, was an awful place. So this dead man walked. (seems like he could do something) So you deserve some of the glory because you could do it on your own. That doesn't give Christ ALL THE GLORY! now does it. What does it mean to be called according to His purpose? What does it mean to be chosen in Him before the foundation of the world? And you will need to explain the verses I posted to Onelight in light of your "free" will. Will Jesus loose any that the Father gave to Him? Will any that were given to Him not come to Him? Did the Lord make sure you would want/will to believe in Him or did you do that on your own. Now where on earth do you get the idea I could do it on my own? The very reason He broke my pride was to save me. Isn't that what you said? So this dead man walked. (seems like he could do something) The bible uses the word predestination 4 times. It only mentions born again once. You don't want to discuss these verses? Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Would you like to talk to one? An ex dead man I mean. I am an ex-dead man. He gave me life and then I lived, He opened my eyes and then I saw, He took away the stony heart and put in a heart of flesh that I could believe. We are saved by grace -- getting everything that we need even though we don't deserve it; through faith and that is even the gift of God. I know from my experience that OneLight is correct. My heart was hard, stone, and God had to crush it, prick it, rebuild it, over a period of months before I accepted Jesus. I knew it was the Holy Spirit talking to me in that hardened state, and I fought against Him, often just lying on the bed sobbing, why me, why me? I had the choice to continue in my sinful state, or I had the choice to choose Jesus. And I knew this. The alternative of not choosing Jesus, which the Holy Spirit had shown to me, was an awful place. So this dead man walked. (seems like he could do something) So you deserve some of the glory because you could do it on your own. That doesn't give Christ ALL THE GLORY! now does it. What does it mean to be called according to His purpose? What does it mean to be chosen in Him before the foundation of the world? And you will need to explain the verses I posted to Onelight in light of your "free" will. Will Jesus loose any that the Father gave to Him? Will any that were given to Him not come to Him? Did the Lord make sure you would want/will to believe in Him or did you do that on your own.

You are correct that barring the intervention of Jesus Christ, none would be saved. None would seek after God. Man has the ability to make choices but he WILL NOT believe unless he gets a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone. This is God's prevenient grace. Ps 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God. Ps 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one. So I guess that you do not believe that the natural man is spiritually dead, blind, lame, deaf..... Just wounded? We cannot and do not receive a heart of flesh until after salvation. Until their sins are forgiven, their heart remain hardened. That is why the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts a person of their sins. They do not come into this knowledge by themselves. This is a point that I disagree with. The doctrine of Total depravity says that man will not submit himself to God and seek salvation. It is totally against the his fallen/carnal nature. God says that there is none that seek after Him, there are none that understand. You say that there are some that do in fact seek after God on their own and need no help in asking for salvtion. Who said man was seeking God? I didn't. I said that the Holy Spirit convicts them of sin, which is God seeking man. You have it backwards in the way you are looking at this. You just said that man gets the heart of flesh after salvation. So how does a spiritually dead person live unless he is given life? .....the spiritually blind man see unless he is given eyes to see? .... the lame made to walk or the deaf have his ears loosed. You seem to believe that man is capable of seeking God. God says he isn't. His nature corrupt as it is will not seek after God unless God does something first. Will Jesus loose any that the Father gave to Him? He said He would not. He is going to make sure that every sheep of His makes it. Those that are not His sheep do not hear His words. Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Why do the pharasees not believe? I refer back to my explanation above. God pricks the heart of man through the Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin while his heart is in a harden state. It is not until after we have the Holy Spirit in us that He is able to create in us a new creation. Where do you get that in scripture. Where did it say God pricks the heart? What does that mean to say God pricks the heart? Because God convicts the world of sin does not imply that they will believe. I don't know about you but I am one of the elect, chosen before the foundation of the world by the Father and given to the Son that He should find me and give me eternal life. In due time God revealed His Son in me the same as Paul. Gal 1:15-16 So one person chooses and another doesn't. And how does that fit with John 6 & 10 above. Also Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. did they believe because they were ordained to etenal life as the scripture says or were they ordained to eternal life because they believe. And you have not explained how a dead man can do anything.

They are parables. One does not arrive at doctrine through parables. Parables help to understand doctrine. The sheep hear the Master's voice and understand that salvation/eternal life/ heaven are of greater value than anything of this earth. These parables are not talking about HOW someone is saved but that those that are saved give up everything for the new life in Christ. How do you see the direct statements of the Lord that He will not loose any that the Father has given to Him? Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You are correct that barring the intervention of Jesus Christ, none would be saved. None would seek after God. Man has the ability to make choices but he WILL NOT believe unless he gets a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone. This is God's prevenient grace. Ps 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God. Ps 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one. So I guess that you do not believe that the natural man is spiritually dead, blind, lame, deaf..... Just wounded? We cannot and do not receive a heart of flesh until after salvation. Until their sins are forgiven, their heart remain hardened. That is why the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts a person of their sins. They do not come into this knowledge by themselves. This is a point that I disagree with. The doctrine of Total depravity says that man will not submit himself to God and seek salvation. It is totally against the his fallen/carnal nature. God says that there is none that seek after Him, there are none that understand. You say that there are some that do in fact seek after God on their own and need no help in asking for salvtion. You just said that man gets the heart of flesh after salvation. So how does a spiritually dead person live unless he is given life? .....the spiritually blind man see unless he is given eyes to see? .... the lame made to walk or the deaf have his ears loosed. You seem to believe that man is capable of seeking God. God says he isn't. His nature corrupt as it is will not seek after God unless God does something first. Will Jesus loose any that the Father gave to Him? He said He would not. He is going to make sure that every sheep of His makes it. Those that are not His sheep do not hear His words. Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Why do the pharasees not believe?

You are correct that barring the intervention of Jesus Christ, none would be saved. None would seek after God. Man has the ability to make choices but he WILL NOT believe unless he gets a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone. This is God's prevenient grace. Ps 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God. Ps 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one. So I guess that you do not believe that the natural man is spiritually dead, blind, lame, deaf..... Just wounded?

God created man in His image and that image is a being with free will. God leaves it up to us to accept or not accept grace. If God is in complete control with no human input, then one of two scenarios are likely: 1) God gives everyone salvation 2) God gives a select few salvation and He decides who is selected In the first case, there was no need for Christ because God makes his own rules and didn't need Christ to set an example for us to follow. In the second case, Christianity is a cruel joke for those who were not predestined for salvation. That is, unless all of the people who choose Christ were predestined to choose Christ and then all those who reject grace were obviously not predestined. Again, what is the point of Christ if its all just a facade for predestination? God lets us choose as part of a refining process. He is bringing us back to paradise and full communion with Him and we need to be perfected first. Hi Bryan, You are correct that man was created in the image of God. I put the emphasis on was. What happened in the fall????? The problem I find in free will is no one is willing to define free will. What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything? 1) God does not give salvation to everyone. That is agreed. 2) This is what the bible describes as election. Those chosen/elected before the foundation of the world. Who are the elect in the following? Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [it is] God that justifieth. Col 3:12 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Did God choose to save some even before the foundation of the world? Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Grace & Peace great verses but as scriptures says we must live by every word, and You as a die hard Calvinist have forgotten to include that most important word" FOREKNOWLEDGE" foreknowledge of the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus and this only is applied to those who call upon the name of the Lord, with a true heart: 1Pe_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. and are we to believe John Calvin or scriptures on who will be given a change for the Blood to be applied Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of onethe free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. and Whom did Jesus stand in the gap , the elect? or the whole World? 1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2.And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. so let's break this down, By His foreknowledge, not a random pick of you are in or you are out, but By His Knowledge of the Blood and whom receives it. He elects and whom can receive this Blood "All Men(mankind) and the WHOLE WORLD! why would anyone want to preach to turn some away from salvation when it is neither the truth or their job to do so, as calvinist can't give an invitation, seeing they don't know who are called and whom are not! " If I be lifted up I will draw ALL MEN unto me" quote JESUS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR FOR THE WHOLE WORLD If you want to site where I quoted Calvin please do. I have not quoted Calvin for I do not follow him. The 5 points of Calvinism as I have pointed out before were not coined by Calvin but at the council of Dort in response to the Arminian teaching that was creeping in. You through out one verse taken out of context of Romans and pick and choose what you will address and what you cannot answer. I have positively stated my possition and I ask that you positively state yours. Is man totally depraved? If he is not then you need to explain how a spiritually dead man can see spiritually, how a blind man can see, how a spiritually deaf man can hear, the lame walk. And this verse has been taken out of context more times than I can count. The invitation is out, those that are thirsty will hear and desire to drink of the Water of Life. Those that are not thirsty WON'T come and drink. So you have not addressed my question about the will. What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything? and around and around we go, calvinist or not, a rose by any other name is still a false doctrine, man's free will is to turn from being evil and death and to choose good and life, scriptures says to choose ye this day, our hearts are evil we must have free will to serve God, God is not an enforcer of His Love, He commends/sends out His love that whosoever, if it seems evil to you to serve God, choose ye whom ye will serve, doesn't say that God forces anyone to love Him, if one can reject the love of Christ, then one can accept the love of Chirst ! my last post, concerning this, let those that have eyes, see and those that have ears, hear! And again I will conceed that man has a will, that he can choose but the will is not free. It is in bondage to the carnal mind that cannot please God. Nowhere in scripture is there any indication that the will of man is free. And if you cannot debate the issue without labeling me or attacking the messanger you only prove you have no teeth. Grace and Peace

God created man in His image and that image is a being with free will. God leaves it up to us to accept or not accept grace. If God is in complete control with no human input, then one of two scenarios are likely: 1) God gives everyone salvation 2) God gives a select few salvation and He decides who is selected In the first case, there was no need for Christ because God makes his own rules and didn't need Christ to set an example for us to follow. In the second case, Christianity is a cruel joke for those who were not predestined for salvation. That is, unless all of the people who choose Christ were predestined to choose Christ and then all those who reject grace were obviously not predestined. Again, what is the point of Christ if its all just a facade for predestination? God lets us choose as part of a refining process. He is bringing us back to paradise and full communion with Him and we need to be perfected first. Hi Bryan, You are correct that man was created in the image of God. I put the emphasis on was. What happened in the fall????? The problem I find in free will is no one is willing to define free will. What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything? 1) God does not give salvation to everyone. That is agreed. 2) This is what the bible describes as election. Those chosen/elected before the foundation of the world. Who are the elect in the following? Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [it is] God that justifieth. Col 3:12 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Did God choose to save some even before the foundation of the world? Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Grace & Peace great verses but as scriptures says we must live by every word, and You as a die hard Calvinist have forgotten to include that most important word" FOREKNOWLEDGE" foreknowledge of the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus and this only is applied to those who call upon the name of the Lord, with a true heart: 1Pe_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. and are we to believe John Calvin or scriptures on who will be given a change for the Blood to be applied Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of onethe free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. and Whom did Jesus stand in the gap , the elect? or the whole World? 1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2.And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. so let's break this down, By His foreknowledge, not a random pick of you are in or you are out, but By His Knowledge of the Blood and whom receives it. He elects and whom can receive this Blood "All Men(mankind) and the WHOLE WORLD! why would anyone want to preach to turn some away from salvation when it is neither the truth or their job to do so, as calvinist can't give an invitation, seeing they don't know who are called and whom are not! " If I be lifted up I will draw ALL MEN unto me" quote JESUS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR FOR THE WHOLE WORLD If you want to site where I quoted Calvin please do. I have not quoted Calvin for I do not follow him. The 5 points of Calvinism as I have pointed out before were not coined by Calvin but at the council of Dort in response to the Arminian teaching that was creeping in. You through out one verse taken out of context of Romans and pick and choose what you will address and what you cannot answer. I have positively stated my possition and I ask that you positively state yours. Is man totally depraved? If he is not then you need to explain how a spiritually dead man can see spiritually, how a blind man can see, how a spiritually deaf man can hear, the lame walk. And this verse has been taken out of context more times than I can count. The invitation is out, those that are thirsty will hear and desire to drink of the Water of Life. Those that are not thirsty WON'T come and drink. So you have not addressed my question about the will. What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything?

That makes sense. When you view it through the lens of total depravity, then free will is certainly not free. But, I guess I was meant to be a Methodist because Wesley's doctrine that includes Deprivation and restoration through Prevenient Grace has made more sense to me since the first time I ever saw the two doctrines compared. I'm not going to say that it is absolutely correct, but I could not teach or preach using a doctrine that doesn't offer salvation to everyone who is listening. I prefer to speak of a God who "so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." Nothing found in an epistle is more important than that. Salvation is presented to everyone that hears it. And Prevenient Grace has a lot to do with who eventually gets saved. All of grace and nothing of works, nothing of me. When we get to the gates of Heaven and see the invitation: Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. It is truly whosoever chooses to take of the water of life. When we pass through and see on the inside of the gate: Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Salvation is entirely of the Lord and He will have ALL the Glory. Grace & Peace LT

I see what you are saying. We're looking at freedom from opposite vantage points. I look at freedom as only in Christ. Outside of Christ is only bondage. Everything about the natural man is about bondage. The new man is made free indeed. The old man wants nothing of God. The new man only wants Jesus Christ. Paul describes the struggle in Rom. 1-7. Grace & Peace LT What does "Everything about the natural man is about bondage" really mean to you? Don't quote scripture, but what does it really mean to you? The natural man is dead unto God and spiritual things. He is a slave to sin. The devil takes them captive at his will. Except for the general grace of God the natural man is powerless to resist.(Gen 20:6) The natural man is at war with God, is enmity against God. In the flesh there is no good thing nothing that God would even consider saving. It is only His pleasure and His decision that He saves anyone. It is the doctrine of total depravity. Did Adam die spiritually? And what does it mean to be spiritually dead? Some questions you can ponder. Grace & Peace. LT

I see what you are saying. We're looking at freedom from opposite vantage points. I look at freedom as only in Christ. Outside of Christ is only bondage. Everything about the natural man is about bondage. The new man is made free indeed. The old man wants nothing of God. The new man only wants Jesus Christ. Paul describes the struggle in Rom. 1-7. Grace & Peace LT

Will that isn't free is nothing. Free is actually an unnecessary adjective, but its a word we use to emphasize the nature of our will. Why would God put the human race through all this drama and sufferring if He intended to take only a certain number of predestined souls at the end? If we are just ants that are forced to walk a pathway and then most (many? some? who knows?) of us are discarded as trash, then that goes against the basic idea that God is Love. Why would Jesus tell us about the lost sheep and how He would leave the flock to find the one missing one and rejoice when it was found, if He already knew which sheep he was keeping and which ones were being set free. Jesus speaks over and over again on finding the lost, willingly sacrificing, and about coming to Him. If He knew that He was only taking an elect, then why bother? Is it just a trick to keep the non-elect peaceful until He takes His elect? I don't think so. I have been contending all along that the will is NOT free but is in bondage. It is controlled by our mind and how we think. Our nature is that we are slaves to sin. We are in bondage to sin. When Adam fell he became the slave of sin and the devil for all humanity. All his descendants were and are born under sin. That is why I have asked you to tell me what we are free to do and free from doing. Your answer tells me you do not know what it is that we are free from. You are struggling with ideas that you cannot reconcile with what I have presented. You mention ants. we are worse than ants and worms before God. There is nothing good in us that God would find to redeemabel. Every human deserves to be in hell for the rebellion of our federal head Adam. You have not mentioned any scripture that you could base your reasoning on at all to contradict what I have posted. And you say that Arminianism can point to scriptures to. What scriptures are you referring to? Point them out to me so I can have a frame of reference. And I do not believe in Calvinism. I believe in Jesus Christ. The term Calvinism only describes ideas that are found in scripture. I agree with them for the most part but as I mention before you can preach Calvinism and not preach Christ. Grace & Peace LT

God created man in His image and that image is a being with free will. God leaves it up to us to accept or not accept grace. If God is in complete control with no human input, then one of two scenarios are likely: 1) God gives everyone salvation 2) God gives a select few salvation and He decides who is selected In the first case, there was no need for Christ because God makes his own rules and didn't need Christ to set an example for us to follow. In the second case, Christianity is a cruel joke for those who were not predestined for salvation. That is, unless all of the people who choose Christ were predestined to choose Christ and then all those who reject grace were obviously not predestined. Again, what is the point of Christ if its all just a facade for predestination? God lets us choose as part of a refining process. He is bringing us back to paradise and full communion with Him and we need to be perfected first. Hi Bryan, You are correct that man was created in the image of God. I put the emphasis on was. What happened in the fall????? The problem I find in free will is no one is willing to define free will. What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything? 1) God does not give salvation to everyone. That is agreed. 2) This is what the bible describes as election. Those chosen/elected before the foundation of the world. Who are the elect in the following? Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [it is] God that justifieth. Col 3:12 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Did God choose to save some even before the foundation of the world? Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Grace & Peace Free will is the ability to reason and decide on a course of action based on whatever criteria you decide is best. Sometimes you make the right decision. Sometimes you make the wrong one. And the counsel you choose to listen to is your responsibility. After Pentecost, mankind was ready to receive a Counselor in the form of the Holy Spirit to guide us into the next phase of our return to the garden, which is simply full communion with God. As for the quotes proving the elect: someone who believes strongly in Arminianism has a similar set of quotes proving his case too. Each epistle was written as a letter to a specific person or persons for a specific reason. Pulling quotes from them like they are a law book without context can serve any agenda. Hi Bryan, What you describe is the WILL. The word free is an adjecttive that describes the will and therefore is an added word. I do not dispute that man has a will. I do dispute whether or not it is free. To determine that point is to define just what is free about the will if anything. I put the versed there not as proof but in reference to a question. Who are these "elect" in the verses I posted and what does it mean in context of each verse. If you are arminian in your thinking then present the verses that you refer to. Those that hold to this view have little scripture to back up their possition. I find that most often it is because they cannot reconcile a God who is absolutely sovereign with their desire to be part of the process of salvation. Salvation is all, entirely of the Lord. Grace & Peace LT