Doowopjock

'Doowopjock' date='Nov 22 2009,

"Christ has told us that none come to Him but such as the Father draws (John 6:44). We are not only weak, and cannot come of ourselves any further than we are helped, but we are naturally backward and averse to come, and therefore must pray for those influences and operations of the Spirit, by the power of which we are unwilling made [to be] willing."

We are drawn to God by the convicting power of the Spirit of God. The conviction power of the Spirit is whooing every person born but some will reject the Lord despite the Spirit of God.

I believe that there are those who do come willing to Christ as they surrender to the Lord. They've given the Lord the altar of there hearts and let him sit on the throne of their hearts as well. This comes willing from our hearts and we are not made by God to do anything it's simply if we love the Lord we will keep his commandments. If any man be in Christ he is a new creature old things are passed away behold all things are made new.

I just am having trouble with the statement ["by the power of which we are unwilling "MADE" [to be] willing."] The Lord does wash away our sins thus making us clean before him as the blood cleansed us. If you could give me more into what that statement means?

What are those influences and operations of the Spirit that we must pray about is it before salvation or after? The Lord does not make slaves out of us once were saved. It was Christ death of the cross that bought our freedom from the bondage of sin which Satan held us in prison slaves to him. But God is not Satan who makes slaves out of his children we are given a choice to lay our lives down willingly.

OC

To me, the "Power" spoken of is that of the Holy Spirit helping us to overcome our "natural" man, which is--by its nature--unwilling, and bent on keeping us unwilling, to will and do the Father's good pleasure. I reckon a comparison would be like a magnet drawing metal, and if the metal could be personified it would be like a person who wouldn't want to move toward the Magnet because of its own nature, which it wouldn't be able to overcome by itself without the help of the Power. I believe this is speaking of after we are saved, because it's only then that we have the Holy Spirit of Whom we are reborn. And I don't see it as us being made slaves either--we still have free-will. But a lot of free-will is just common-sense; i.e., I have free-will to cross the street against traffic or I can choose instead to wait until the street is clear (things LIKE that, I'm saying).

I know that no Scripture is of private interpretation, but at least that's what these things are saying to me.

I just read this and wanted to share with all my brothers- and sisters-in-Christ Jesus here. I hope it blesses you as much as it just did me:

"Christ has told us that none come to Him but such as the Father draws (John 6:44). We are not only weak, and cannot come of ourselves any further than we are helped, but we are naturally backward and averse to come, and therefore must pray for those influences and operations of the Spirit, by the power of which we are unwilling made [to be] willing."

--Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible (New Modern Edition), Vol. 3, pg. 869. (brackets, emphasis mine)

This seems to explain what Paul is talking about that is happening within each of us after we are born again at Phil. 2:13--to will and to do of His "good pleasure". And what is the "good pleasure" spoken of there..?? THAT'S at Luke 12:32..!! To me, anyway, that's one of the most AWESOME bits of Truth I've read in a long time..!!

Y'all be blessed now, hear..??

A lot has been said--especially in these final days--about the gospel of Jesus Christ being, in so many words, politically-incorrect or offensive to the sensitivities of those who do not believe. Even some Christians, in the name of something akin to "peace and love and harmony" have bought into the fantasy that there can ever be peace on earth without the physical presence--once again--of the Prince of Peace Himself. It'll never happen like that. God's Word says it won't.

What follows is a portion of a communique between myself and another Christian not so very long ago. I believe it speaks well to the appropriate response to have (at least for myself, anyway) towards the hostility of the gospel that will continue to happen with greater and greater intensity as we approach the climax of the age:

"Well, I never meant to offend you or the other Christians here (speaking for my part in the whole affair). I'm just convinced that Jesus--who was Himself the very Rock of 'offence' (Isa. 8:14; Rom. 9:33; I Peter 2:8, KJV)--is still telling me what He first told the world at Matt. 5:11-12, and that if I can never allow myself an 'insult' or two for His sake from the relatively easy venue of the web (because I really don't care about 'popularity'), I'm not doing much good at reciprocating to Him the love He's giving me.

The church has gone for a long time trying to spread the Word as 'The Gospel According to the World's Palatability'. It hasn't worked very well. A Sword that is 'sharper than any (other) two-edged sword' (Heb. 4:12) is bound to inevitably bring forth some 'cutting' remarks if it isn't sheathed (once again) in the scabbard of palatability. My only 'excuse' for anything is Acts 4:20."

He who has ears....(etc.)

That's two of my favorite Scriptures--where it talx about "on earth as it is in Texas" and the one where it says "And on the eighth day God created Texas after a good, long rest so He could save His best for last". I think those are somewhere in Genesis, but I'm not sure. Of course, I reckon not many folx north of that Rio Rojo actually HAVE a copy of the RLV (Revised Longhorn Version).

Yippie-ki-yo-ki-yay, y'all.*

*-("Texan" for "Hal LaLooya")

Oh no kiddin. Some of those "moments" for me have happened right here on Worthy.

Shux, I might not always be right. But I ain't NEVER wrong.

Not addicted. Overwhelmed by the enormous size (compared to other boards I've been on) and very often out of my element. But I still enjoy coming in here to read and learn.

Brother - if you're "out of your element" then I'm lost on some backroad somewhere.

You're just precious, you are. You got so much Jesus inside you you couldn't keep it from leaking out and getting all over everybody you come in contact with if you was to lock yourself up in a closet and throw away the key for the rest of your life. And you can take that to the bank.

Not addicted. Overwhelmed by the enormous size (compared to other boards I've been on) and very often out of my element. But I still enjoy coming in here to read and learn.

(((((((BIG HUG)))))))

Wish I could do more, Trav.

But have you tried BC..??

Well...I won't lie to y'all--they DO wear you out all right (LOL..!!).

But it just makes the rest you DO get all the more "sweeter" when it comes around.

.....Please don't take offense to this, but I take great pleasure in hearing what my elders have to say. As a young(er) person (31), I do not know it all, and I love to hear what my elders have to say since they have been around longer than I. I can learn from them (you). Thank you for this post, I have something to chew on for today!

May God richly bless you and your family!

No offense taken at all, brother. These days, I do find myself elder to more people than not. (LOL..!! ) Thanx for your blessing, and may God bless you and your loved ones as well.

Yesterday, my three grandchildren and I went up into town to the picture-show (and if y'all haven't taken your kids/grandkids to see "G-Force" yet, it's really a cute movie). But I had an altogether unexpected experience which came about from actually watching my grandkids more than the movie. I started remembering how I was at their age from the things they did while we were there:

--Wanting to sit on the front-row so the screen and characters could seem "larger than life" and you could be that "close" to the action.

--Giggling almost uncontrollably at the shenanigans going on up on the screen (though this was largely a big "blur" to me--LOL..!!)

--Only taking an occasional bite or nibble from the popcorn or candy because really, it was there to keep you company--to watch the show with you--more than to be consumed.

--Looking around at the auditorium and counting all the other kids who were there with their parents/grandparents and keeping count of them as they came in.

--(my youngest granddaughter)Snuggling up next to Grandpa to get warm because it was cold inside with the air-conditioning turned on (her older sister, of course, is too old and mature for such "baby-stuff" and her little brother is a real "man"--LOL..!!).

--Wanting to go to the bathroom (again, the youngest granddaughter) and not being in there for as much as two minutes--obviously just to see what the inside of the bathroom there looked like.

--Talking incessantly all the way home about the movie and their favorite parts of it, as if it wasn't completely "watched" yet until each one of them could lodge their critique of it.

I haven't thought of those things in a long time, but in a way--I was seeing myself from so many years ago. And there were certain song-lyrics running through my mind, as if I was subconciously searching for appropriate background music to all that had been happening:

"The mem'ries of a man in his old age

Are the deeds of a man in his prime."

--(Pink Floyd)

Naahhh--I thought. I'm already past my "prime".

"Yesterday's dreams...are tomorrow's sighs...

Watch children playing...they seem so wise."

--(Moody Blues)

Close, I thought. But still not quite right.

"Little ones remind us of a place we used to be;

Echoes of the 'ever-land; discover who you really am."

--(Young Rascals)

THAT was it..!! It was perfect..!!

And then I thought of something even more meaningful:

"Except ye become as little children, ye cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven." (Matt. 18:3)

And everything seemed to come into perfect focus then. This "life" we live in this world is only the entry into another birth-canal that leads to a life where there is no end--where children are still children at 100 years old. As Christians, we have nothing to fear when facing death head-on. It's only the beginning of our birth--our REAL birth to our REAL life that is hid from us until we reach it (Col. 3:3). So much of what I see in my grandchildren that I was when I was their age is so much what I see myself becoming as I near becoming that age again.

We have SO MUCH MORE to look forward to than all we have put together to look back upon. God bless us all.

The other day, I was volunteering at a summer camp. At the end of the day, the kids are picked up by parents as this is a day camp and not an over-nighter.

Anyway, there was one kid (I'll just call him "Jack") whose mom was going to be pretty late. Rather than sit in the boring camp room, I took him outside to hang out with other counselors and just be outside (whatever happened to playing outside?? I guess that's an entirely different post, lol ) Well, on the sidewalk, there was a rather interesting bug just crawling along. It didn't look menacing, so I let it crawl on my hand. I picked it up and took it over to where Jack was waiting to show him. The bug had a neat shell that reflected light in a rainbow-like pattern. Very cool-looking. Upon showing it to Jack, I said, "Hey, bud- what do you think about this? Isn't it cool?" I was thinking about what the bug might eat, if it flew, etc. Jack took a good look at it and said, without hesitation and with all conviction, "Yeah, isn't God amazing how He made that bug so pretty to look at?!"

I was floored. Here I am, an adult, with all my years of schooling, with all my "knowledge", and God uses a 6 year old to show me how amazing and holy He is!

This is what I learned-

Sometimes, my siblings, we need to simply look at things with a childlike faith and wonder. I encourage you to slow down and enjoy God's creation as a way for Him to show you something about Himself. Instead of letting the things of this earth get in the way between you and your Father, let His creation show you His glory.

May our Father bless you, my brothers and sisters- may He be your one source of happiness, and may He be glorified in you!

I love you all!

WOW--this is so cool..!! Thanx for sharing this, Drawn. I had a "learning" experience with my three grandkids the other day, but since it's a bit detailed I thought I'd just start a new thread with the story. Still--I really like this one.

To be as honest as I know how to be, I hardly know how to tell if someone is Jewish or not unless they say they are. I've been around racism before, yes--all my life really. But that's one kind of racism I've never known how somebody can tell who IS (a Jew) and who IS NOT just on the surface. And like I said--I'm glad I don't know any more about it than I do. In like manner, I don't know how anybody can be "attracted" in a physical way to someone of their same gender. But there are just some things I don't WANT to ever understand.

Not quite sure what you are trying to say, but the Bible is clear enough that there really can't be disparities. Many people, in an attempt to rob the Jewish people of what God has promised them have created entire theologies designed to sanitize their anti-Semitism. If you will simply remember that Israel, 100% of the time, without exception, ALWAYS refers to the physical nation in Scripture, that will remove any and all confusion.

The only "disparities" I refer to (and maybe that's a poor word-choice) would be the same thing as a road sign on one highway pointing one direction to a certain destination and a road sign on another highway pointing another direction to the same place. I doubt I will ever be able to understand all the things the Jewish people do in this lifetime--maybe the next one; but because Jesus has laid His life down for me anyway--even though I'm a Gentile--He has also made a way for me to understand the things I must to reach the place He would have me to go in terms that I CAN understand and relate to.

I've never known or understood how ANYONE can be anti-Semitic, even though that obviously exists. I'm not interested in ever learning why someone CAN or WOULD be that way; I don't want to ever be.

Just from reading all the fascinating things that have been written here--by all of you--something entirely new has occured to me. I'm not sure exactly how to put it, but here's an effort:

I believe God knew what words to use that would be translated into English the way He intended them to be before English was ever a language. I believe His Word in English--to me and others like me, who would have to learn a lot more than we know now to understand Jewish language and culture--is as reliable to US as it is in the original language and context to those who ARE blessed with a familiarity of a Jewish understanding. I believe there probably ARE certain disparities, sorta like road-signs on the way to a certain place, but I believe that as long as it's God's Word, that certain place winds up being the same for all of us. Maybe the road is straight and narrow for each group--BOTH roads.

Just a hunch, if ya' wanna call it that. I call it something else, but no matter--I'm grateful to get enlightenment from those who can see a side of the "road" that I can't.

Here is a link to an article that discusses and contrasts the 3 standard views on this topic:

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Israel/israel.html

Thanx, Eric--bookmarked it.

The only meaning the Bible supplies is that Israel means to have power with man and God and prevail. It does not mean to prevail over God but to prevail with God which also gives rise to the view that "Israel" means "Prince of God." That is conjecture and is not the meaning provided to us by Scripture.

Jacob prevailed over Laban and this name change would also fortify Jacob when he would again encounter Esau.

It is really a prophecy. Israel will prevail. The most universally hated of all nations will prevail, but will do so in the power an strength of the Lord. Even in modern times Israel has continued to struggle and has prevailed against every attempt to destroy that nation. It is clear that God still considers the nation of Israel today to be the biblical Israel of old whom He promised to restore.

The nations who struggle against Israel do not realize that they are also struggling against God.

It is interesting to note along with this that while he did prevail, he was physically disabled in the process.

Somehow I have a concept in my mind of how that applies and manifests itself with the whole of Isreal, but I can't put it into words.

OK--thanx, folx.

Hey, since we're talking about telepreachers (Joel Olsteen...), I thought I'd throw Joyce Meyer out there. What do you think of her? I know the same thing that bugs me about Joel bugs me about her.

I haven't watched her in quite some time, but there has been a time in my life where the Holy Spirit ministered to me through her. I've only seen Joel once or twice total--although I used to watch his daddy some before he passed on. With any of them, I think it's just a matter of taking forth the Precious (which is ALWAYS God's Word) from the vile (which is when the vessel starts putting their own "twist" on things). That's what God told Jeremiah to do (Jer. 15:19) and said it would be like getting it straight from his mouth. There are times when a gifted teacher/expositor would rather run a political campaign or some social platform than to teach the Word. It's times like that where I just have to "tune them out" and wait for another day.

One more question:

In the original language used to tell of Jacob's name being changed to "Israel", I've heard it said a literal translation to English is "he who reigns with God". I don't remember who taught that, but my question--for anyone who knows: is that true..??

I love this thread!! thanks guys!

LOL..!! Well, it certainly 'took off" all right. WOW..!! There's enough here to mull over and digest for a LONG time.

I sure do appreciate all of y'all who are taking part here.

There are indeed many interpretations of certain passages of Scripture that all seem to be sound even if they also are seemingly contradictory one to the other. I believe the only reason they seem that way is because we as human-beings have a limited understanding--even those of us with a great amount of it. I see a lot of "parallels" myself with ancient Israel and the church today, but I know and understand very little in comparison to how much I don't. I thank God that Jesus said if I just "BELIEVE" on Him that He would cover the rest. If He had asked me to have it all figured out by the time He got here to set up the kingdom, there would be no hope for me.

Israel in biblical terms doesn't mean the present country of Israel, there was no country of Israel. There was the northern and southern kingdoms, Judah where we get the term Jew from and Israel the other '10' tribes. G-d said at the end of the age He will start bringing them back together as a nation which I believe is the present nation. I find way too many who think the term Israel means the modern state. As Yod said Israel does have different meanings.

I wish I understood every meaning of it (I have suspected this for a long time). But this might be one of those things that fall under Deut. 29:29 for me--it could be that it's not for me to know. That doesn't mean, however, that I don't find it intriguing. Perhaps I always will--which isn't a complaint, not at all. Maybe I wouldn't recognize life for being what it is if there weren't things to wonder about or daydream about. If that's the way it has to be, I'm OK with that. Not like it's something I'm not used to. (LOL..!!)

If not, why are those fruits missing in what the world identifies as Israel..??

why do you assume that? Isn't the world full of believers in the Messiah of Israel? How do you think that happened?

yet the Word also speaks of a time yet future when we will see "life from the dead" when all of Israel will be saved. (Romans 11)

I thought this would mean that the "fruits" here spoken of would be those from a nation who believed in Jesus, as opposed to one that didn't. Unless I've been hearing wrong all this time, the nation Israel today is not predominantly "Christian". It's one of the main reasons for my disclaimer in the OP of being a "British Israelite". But until I read just now what y'all posted above this post, I have always thought the reference was to a "Spiritual" race without regard at all to any flesh-and-blood race. It might be fair to say it was a conclusion I arrived at on my own--it has been the only thing that seems to make sense to me about it in all these years.

VERY interesting and informative--thank you for this insight, y'all..!! This gives me a lot to think about (and that happens here a whole lot). I'm gonna c/p y'all's posts into an e-mail to myself to refer back to as I continue looking into all the stuff I'm trying to learn about. And yod, yeah I betcha' I DO have a bunch more questions--about these things and a lotta other things as well. I'm just glad even though I know so little concerning all the things about being a Jew and the richness of that culture to relate to that Jesus knows everything He needs to know about being a Texas redneck and He still loves me enough to accept me as I am.

I really appreciate y'all helping me to better understand these things.

NOTE: This is in NO WAY WHATSOEVER meant in any anti-Semitic way; I have nothing but respect and compassion for the Jewish people. These are just things I wonder about is all:

WHO is Israel..?? Has the world correctly identified it as the nation at the Eastern end of the Mediterrainean or could it be that Jesus's words in Matt. 21:43 are literal..?? IF so, who brings forth the fruits of the kingdom taken away..?? If not, why are those fruits missing in what the world identifies as Israel..?? Is the Jerusalem above the mother of us all that we should pray for the peace of..?? Or is it the same as the one identified in a negative way at Rev. 11:8..?? Could the fact that "blindness in part has happened to Israel" mean that Israel doesn't even know who they are..?? Let me emphasize--I am NOT a British Israelite. I'm not even entirely sure what that means. But I do wonder about these things and have for some time.

The church is also said to be a "Spiritual race" (as opposed to a fleshly one). Does that mean that Gentiles and Jews are mixed together when born of the same Spirit..?? I "think" so, anyway. I've heard it said before that all Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews. That also makes sense to me since there are supposed to be eleven other tribes besides Judah. Paul said he is not a Jew who is circumcised in the flesh (I take this to mean one who is born as a Jew in his fleshly race), but one who is circumcised in the heart. All things that I wonder about--and it's just like Isaiah said, "...line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept, here a little, there a little...".

Can anybody here shed a little light on this to where I ain't so much "in the dark" on it..??