stevehut Posted July 26, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,216 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/16/1962 Share Posted July 26, 2004 In 180, Irenaeus is calling Mary the 'New Eve'. By calling her this, he is saying that, like Eve, she was created sinless. You mean the Eve who eventually gave in to temptation and sinned? Mary is being compared to her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmwhalen Posted July 26, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 80 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 997 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 26, 2004 GoodSamaritan: Re. your "'personal relationship with Jesus'(a term that is nowhere in the Bible)" comment- By this type of "logic", then please refrain from "celebrating" the following RCC "feast days"-none of these "terms" are in the Holy Bible(for that matter, technically the "term" the Holy Bible is not in the Holy Bible-"the book" is): Feast of All Saints, Feast of the Holy Rosary, Feast of The Sacred Heart of Jesus, Feast of Our Lady of the Rosary, Feast of Our Lady of Sorrows, Feast of Holy Innocents, Feast of All Souls, Feast of the Holy Family, Feast of the Queenship of the Virgin Mary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehut Posted July 26, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,216 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/16/1962 Share Posted July 26, 2004 Additionally, since you do not believe that the Holy Bible is the sole source of authority, why are you quoting it as your authority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServingHim Posted July 26, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,156 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 60 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/19/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 26, 2004 In 180, Irenaeus is calling Mary the 'New Eve'. By calling her this, he is saying that, like Eve, she was created sinless. You mean the Eve who eventually gave in to temptation and sinned? Mary is being compared to her? isn't Jesus called the "new Adam"? The O.T. "type" is always inferior to the N.T. reality, or "antitype", and sometimes it is the opposite. Have you heard "the OT is the NT 'concealed' . . . the NT is the OT 'REVEALED'! And we know the NT is BETTER than the OLD. Adam is a "type" of Jesus Christ, and Jesus is even called "The Last Adam" in 1 Cor 15:45. Scriptures say that we have a first and second Adam. Adam had Eve, the 'mother' of all humanity. Adam condemned the human race; Jesus freed it. Since Eve was created without original sin as well as Adam (created sinless), then the realities of these Old Testament "types" had to be without original sin also. We know that Jesus had no original sin, and so Mary, the New Testament reality of Eve had to be without original sin also, or else she was inferior to her "type". We KNOW that Jesus was NOT 'inferior' to his "type" (Adam). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehut Posted July 26, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,216 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/16/1962 Share Posted July 26, 2004 Mary, the New Testament reality of Eve had to be without original sin also How do we know this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServingHim Posted July 26, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,156 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 60 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/19/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 26, 2004 "...as all have sinned and have need of the glory of GOD." Rom 3:23 Many people point to this verse as 'proof' against the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The Immaculate Conception means the Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived and born without original sin. However this verse does not even address 'Original Sin', which is imputed to almost all of mankind by the sin of Adam and Eve. "Almost all" is said simply because a few did not have original sin imputed to them, namely Adam, Eve, Jesus Christ, and the New Eve, Blessed Mary. Romans 3:23 addresses only the sins that we commit of our own free will. According to Scripture, there are there a few exceptions to the word 'All'? What about Jesus Christ? Did He in His humanity ever sin? What about babies and those with a mental retardation who have no reasoning power? Have they sinned? Have children below the age of reason sinned? Have comatose and senile people sinned? There are exceptions. In Luke 1:6, Zachary and Elizabeth, the parents of John the Baptist were "Both just before GOD, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord". In Luke 1:15, John the Baptist was spoken of this way ... "For he shall be great before the Lord; he shall drink no wine or strong drink, and shall be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mothers womb". I believe these verses sound as if Zachary, Elizabeth, and John the Baptist have not sinned. So I do think there are exceptions to the term 'All have sinned'. Since scriptures alludes that there are exceptions to the word 'ALL', why then should anyone not allow one more exception for the Mother of the Savior of the World ... the Mother of Jesus Christ, the Mother of God? John 12:19 states ... "The entire world has gone after him!" Did everyone in the entire world really go after Christ? No, I don't think so. Matt 3:5-6 states ... "Then went out to Him Jerusalem, and ALL Judea, and ALL the region about the Jordan; and they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins." Were all of the people of Judea, and the region about the Jordan baptized? Again, I don't think ALL of them were, but a great many I'm sure. The phrase 'the whole world', does not really mean everybody in the world. The words 'whole world' and 'all' are used in several different senses of Scripture, and seldom do they literally mean all persons. Romans 11:26 says "ALL Israel shall be saved." We know for certain that 'ALL' in Israel will not be saved. Romans 15:14 says "...you yourselves are full of love, filled with 'ALL' knowledge..." I kow FOR SURE that the only person filled with 'ALL' knowledge is GOD Himself. The word "all" apparently can mean a 'great number', or 'a lot'. Since there are exceptions for Jesus Christ, and for others as shown above, the meaning could be seen as, 'ALL are subject to sin'. In the case of the Blessed Virgin Mary, a prevention of sin was brought about by a special grace from GOD, for God can do ALL things . . . even give grace to prevent someone from sinning, and especially, His own mother... 1 John 3:9 states ... "He who is born of GOD does not commit sin." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LCPGUY Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted July 26, 2004 Share Posted July 26, 2004 "Both just before GOD, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord". In Luke 1:15, John the Baptist was spoken of this way ... "For he shall be great before the Lord; he shall drink no wine or strong drink, and shall be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mothers womb". as christians, filled with the Holy Spirit, we ALL walk blamelessly. that doesn't make us sinless, nor do i believe for a moment that it made them sinless. when God says "all have sinned", i believe it means just that. ALL have sinned, except Christ Himself. and immaculate conception means she was born sinless? i've even heard some argue that mary's mother was ALSO sinless. seems to me that an immaculate conception is a man-made (not biblical that i'm aware of) term, which SHOULD indicate exactly what scriptures tell of... mary got pregnant without having ever been touched by a man. scripture says mary needed a savior too. if she was sinless, or if john the baptist and his parents were sinless, they wouldn't have needed a savior. i noticed nobody wanted to touch the previous posts i made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehut Posted July 26, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,216 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/16/1962 Share Posted July 26, 2004 1- and immaculate conception means she was born sinless? 2- an immaculate conception is a man-made (not biblical that i'm aware of) term, which SHOULD indicate exactly what scriptures tell of... mary got pregnant without having ever been touched by a man. 1- Yes, that's exactly what the I.C. doctrine means. Not that I agree with it, but that's what it means, according to the First Vatican Council, 1870's. 2- That's the doctrine of the virgin birth. Different subject. I find a lot of lifelong Catholics who also struggle with this distinction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServingHim Posted July 27, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,156 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 60 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/19/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 27, 2004 I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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