Healing Services

[Guest shadow2b]

-8) For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. (9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities

-WHAT DO YOU THINK AN-INFIRMITY--IS??--IF NOT A SICKNESS--DISEASE--AN AFFLICTION OF THE FLESH--BONES----try like

-POST-POLIO-MYLETIS-MUSCLE ATROPHY-I GUARANTEE THAT IS AN INFIRMITY--A SICKNESS--A DISEASE--A MALADY--AN AFFLICTION OF THE BONES--& FLESH--& MUSCLES---wanna talk bout that INFIRMITY fer awhile??- duhhhh

- :bright: :bright: --& several theologians have proposed that Pauls {thorn in the {Flesh?}was his EYES--since he went to the THIRD heaven & saw things that it was unlawful to talk about--now IF ya analyze that jes a mite--Where GOD ALMIGHTY is---There can be "NO-DARKNESS"-not an ounce--nor can SIN stay in GODS Presence--GOD can Not look on sin--I.E. Moses--wanted to SEE GOD--but was told he could not see GODS face--only his back-parts & HIS GLORY--Glory IS BRIGHT---

-YAS SEE the thing is IF GOD was to LOOK straight at SIN--SIN would Explode into NOTHINGNESS--NO longer Exist--period--Sooooo-since GOD cannot LOOK on SIN--Why do you think there was a CLOUD-Over the area of Jerusalem where JESUS was crucified????--GOD--CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH---THE FLESH OF JESUS BECAME SIN----GOD turned Away--& the Cloud "covered the SIN on the Cross--hence--JESUS SAID "MY GOD MY GOD WHY HAS THOU FORSAKEN ME"??

GOD THE FATHER-{MY-GOD}--MY GOD{the HOLY-SPIRIT}had Forsaken--turned away from the SIN -on that cross----jest sum thoughts ---mebby----I Reckon- :hug: :hug: -

[Scudbuddy]

Shadow,

Infirmity has 6 different meanings depending on how it is used. English is not a deep enough language to hold it. Our understanding of infirmity is not the total understanding of infirmity.

astheneia: want of strength-weakness;infirmity, which means a moral, mental, or physical weakness or flaw.

Used of utter helplessness of the body in death. (I Cor.15:43, II Cor.13:4)

infirmity of body-(Mt.8:17; Lk.5:15;8:2;13:11,12; Jn.5:5; 11:4; Acts28:9)

weakness of ability as a nation to cope with more powerful forces in war (Heb.11:34)

weakness of human nature (Rom. 6:19; 8:26; Gal.4:13; Heb. 4:15; 5:2;7:28)

weakness of human ability (I Cor.2:3)

Last but not least,

Pauls weakness and helplessness before Satan's angel (II Cor. 11:30;12:5;9-10)

Whenever infirmities is listed in this way, it is listed with reproaches, necessities, persecutions, and distresses. It is not listed with sickness. You have to look at it in its' context to know which one it is. In this case it is listed with non-sicknessess. It is perfectly described as to what it is. (Satan's angel)

[apothanein kerdos]

Okay, before I continue I want to ask a few questions and obviously get a few answers. I've been sitting back and wondering if we're saying the same thing, or believe the same thing, and just going about it in a different way.

1) What do you consider healing? If a Christian is sick (say with terminal cancer) and they go to Heaven to be with the Lord, is that healing? If a person has MS but God gives them the patience and grace to work through it, is that healing?

2) Do you believe our prayers can change God's Will?

3) Is all sickness caused by sin?

4) Can sickness sometimes be brought on by trals?

5) Is it wrong to pray for earthly healing, but acknowledge that this fits into God's plan somehow?

Let me summarize where I'm comming from so maybe we can get a better perspective. I'll do this by answering my own questions:

1) I believe that sometimes a person is healed by God taking them home. I don't believe all healing is the physical problems being removed while here on earth. I think God giving someone the grace to work through the sickness or the determination is the real miracle as well. Watching someone survive cancer is a miracle. Yet the real healing, the miracle, took place that they had the determination to make it. Yet someone who dies from cancer is still healed in that they were able to go home.

2) I believe God's Will is unchangable. While I am not a Calvinist by any means (I believe he have free will), I believe that God has a perfect plan that He WILL enact, regardless of us. I think sometimes God allows for us to be sick and incorporates it into His Will. Job is a perfect example for when he recieved boils. It was part of a trial. A test of faith to grow Job. God allowed it (important that we realize He didn't cause it, thus He didn't Will it to happen). I believe in the end God's Will is always done. Yet at the beginning it's open. Thus God's Will for Job was for him to grow closer to God. God allowed for unforunate and devestating circumstances at the beginning to achieve this goal in the end.

3) Again, going back to Job, I don't think all sickness is caused by sin. We even see in Matthew that the disciples asked who had sinnned (over the blind man), the parents or the child. Jesus replied that no one had sin but the child had been born blind in order to bring glory to God.

4) My obvious answer on this is yes.

5) When I have a friend that needs prayer to be healed, I will always pray for healing in mind that they'll be healed here on earth. I always pray that God will take care of them while here on earth. At the same time, I acknowledge that my ways are not His ways and that His ways are pefect. I equate it to this:

How often have you seen a child that gets everything they want? They beg and beg and beg and beg and cry and cry and cry and cry until they get exactly what they want. That child is spoiled. Do you want a spoiled child? Of course not. So what makes you think God does? We can pray for a certain type of healing (i.e. cure the cancer right now), but God has His ways. His plan might be to heal that person by bringing them home (taking them to heaven). In the course of this, at the funeral the gospel could be preached, and people could come to know Christ. My zada (grandfather) was cut off from his family for twenty years because he abandoned Judaism to become a Christian. Before he died his family finally began to contact him again. His brothers and sister, who had never before stepped into a church, attended his funeral and heard the gospel for the first time. Since then they've been asking quesitons and two of them are extremely close to accepting Christ. My grandfather didn't suffer for a long time. He went quickly. I firmly believe that he was healed, and that God's Will worked through it.

So that's basically where I stand. How about you?

[apothanein kerdos]

Also, careful in your interpretation of astheneia. This Greek word is refering to weakness to the body and/or the soul. It does depend on context as to which one it is refering to. In Luke 13:11 the Greek word is refering to the soul, that is, a weak and/or carnal spirit. Yet in John 5:5 we have to interpret astheneia to mean physical, because in context it wouldn't fit in the spiritual realm.

In interpreting 2 Corinthians 12:7, we learn that this is actually a physical weakness caused by an Evil Spirit. We know in Chapter 11 Paul is talking about how is is phyisically weak, yet will still boast in his weakness. So contextually we know that 12:7 should be talking about a physical weakness. When we look at the word buffet in the Greek we discover that kolaphizo is a purely physical action that refers to striking under the eye. We look to classical Greek writings to see that when "thorn" and "buffet" are together, it is always a physical action. In Mark 14:65 we see the word kolaphizo used again, again, a physical action. This is why scholars for centuries have agreed that the "thorn in the flesh" was an eye sight problem sent by an evil spirit. Further evidence of this is that most of Paul's letters were dictated. Why would an educated man need to have a letter dictated unless he couldn't see? Thus, God chose not to heal Paul of this eye problem, but to use it to His own glory.

[Kabowd]

Bravo Super Jew

[Scudbuddy]

Okay, before I continue I want to ask a few questions and obviously get a few answers. I've been sitting back and wondering if we're saying the same thing, or believe the same thing, and just going about it in a different way.

1) What do you consider healing? If a Christian is sick (say with terminal cancer) and they go to Heaven to be with the Lord, is that healing? If a person has MS but God gives them the patience and grace to work through it, is that healing?

2) Do you believe our prayers can change God's Will?

3) Is all sickness caused by sin?

4) Can sickness sometimes be brought on by trals?

5) Is it wrong to pray for earthly healing, but acknowledge that this fits into God's plan somehow?

Let me summarize where I'm comming from so maybe we can get a better perspective. I'll do this by answering my own questions:

1) I believe that sometimes a person is healed by God taking them home. I don't believe all healing is the physical problems being removed while here on earth. I think God giving someone the grace to work through the sickness or the determination is the real miracle as well. Watching someone survive cancer is a miracle. Yet the real healing, the miracle, took place that they had the determination to make it. Yet someone who dies from cancer is still healed in that they were able to go home.

2) I believe God's Will is unchangable. While I am not a Calvinist by any means (I believe he have free will), I believe that God has a perfect plan that He WILL enact, regardless of us. I think sometimes God allows for us to be sick and incorporates it into His Will. Job is a perfect example for when he recieved boils. It was part of a trial. A test of faith to grow Job. God allowed it (important that we realize He didn't cause it, thus He didn't Will it to happen). I believe in the end God's Will is always done. Yet at the beginning it's open. Thus God's Will for Job was for him to grow closer to God. God allowed for unforunate and devestating circumstances at the beginning to achieve this goal in the end.

3) Again, going back to Job, I don't think all sickness is caused by sin. We even see in Matthew that the disciples asked who had sinnned (over the blind man), the parents or the child. Jesus replied that no one had sin but the child had been born blind in order to bring glory to God.

4) My obvious answer on this is yes.

5) When I have a friend that needs prayer to be healed, I will always pray for healing in mind that they'll be healed here on earth. I always pray that God will take care of them while here on earth. At the same time, I acknowledge that my ways are not His ways and that His ways are pefect. I equate it to this:

How often have you seen a child that gets everything they want? They beg and beg and beg and beg and cry and cry and cry and cry until they get exactly what they want. That child is spoiled. Do you want a spoiled child? Of course not. So what makes you think God does? We can pray for a certain type of healing (i.e. cure the cancer right now), but God has His ways. His plan might be to heal that person by bringing them home (taking them to heaven). In the course of this, at the funeral the gospel could be preached, and people could come to know Christ. My zada (grandfather) was cut off from his family for twenty years because he abandoned Judaism to become a Christian. Before he died his family finally began to contact him again. His brothers and sister, who had never before stepped into a church, attended his funeral and heard the gospel for the first time. Since then they've been asking quesitons and two of them are extremely close to accepting Christ. My grandfather didn't suffer for a long time. He went quickly. I firmly believe that he was healed, and that God's Will worked through it.

So that's basically where I stand. How about you?

Super Jew,

Thank you for continuing this vital conversation. I really do believe that many are reading these discussions who never contribute to the discussion, and they learn something from the different points of view. I know I have at times reading these forums even when I did not enter the fray.

For all to know, I have apoligized to SJ for any out of line remark. He has been gracious enough to accept my apoligy. Thank you so very much.

First thing. The word healing in the greek many times but not always comes from the word "souza". That word can also mean salvation. So healing and salvation are tied together scripturally. I do believe that God uses suffering in peoples lives. It is obvious when like last night I watched Joni Eareckson Tada on Larry King, and see wisdom pouring out of her from the years of suffering and yet thanking God. My posistion though is that though she has accepted her sufferings, she wouldn't refuse healing.

In my ministry to the church overseas, ecspecially the persecuted church, all of them are living with horrible suffering thanking God in the midst of it. But they will die knocking on Heavens door for their deliverance. They asked for that from me that I would petition the church to pray for their deliverance.

I recognize suffering for the agent of change that it is. That in it, we identify with Christ. But I am not so wise as to know Gods will, nor am I a person who thinks it is healthy to pray out of the realities of the desires of any normal person to be delivered from our enemies even if their trials are making them stronger in their faith. That would be spiritual masochism.

In Cuba, I had noticed a people that were happier than any I had ever met. And yet these were the poorest people who were being persecuted horribly. These are the best represenatives of my stance. Though thankful in their trials, all of them were praying for their deliverance. This is a God-induced instinct that is healthy. Otherwise our suffering becomes an unhealthy thing.

Here are my anwsers to your 5 questions. Some of the above also anwsers some of these questions.

1.Going to heaven is the ultimate healing. Love it, can't wait till I see the day. I just like the fact that though Jesus didn't heal all around Him, He healed everyone He prayed for; and He gave us instructions to bring this Kingdom to our surroundings whereever we were. I like what I heard Bill Johnson say numerous times. "We owe this world an encounter with God." And as I have stated before, I believe in the concept Jesus spoke of. Persistant prayer. Die knocking. Be happy and thankful in the midst of it, but die knocking.

2.As much as I do that Moses changed Gods mind. That Abraham changed Gods mind. But I am careful with those verses that we mature as Saints. Even though Abrahams prayer bought a break from God for the few, in reality Sodom was destroyed. He got his 10, and I believe that God all that time meant for him to get that 10, so that he could learn persistant intercession. And yes Job was sick through a trial of God sent from Satan. But Job didn't stay sick. He was eventually healed and blessed beyond belief. That whole scenario was about attitude during suffering. I do believe that that is the key. But we never see Job giving up on his deliverance. We see him willing to to suffer if that was what God wanted. "Though He slay me, I will trust Him."

The word intercession is key to this understanding. To intercede in the midst of a situation in and of itself shows that we are coming to God to plead for something. If God is going to do something, what should our prayers be for if they are not meant to change his direction? Gods will is going to be done anyways; right? No, we are given an opportunity to intercede with God for situations. In the process, maybe instead He will change our heart. Or maybe that is part of the process of how He does things. His will being to be moved in a direction by our prayers. It is the way He has set things up.

3.Take the blindness of the man healed by Jesus in Matthew. I think that Jesus was making it clear that no one in the family was responsible for his blindness due to sin. My contention though is that all sickness and death is rooted in original sin. Neither took place till sin took place. Though it is Gods will sometimes for us to die, He still says that Death was swallowed up in Victory. God calls death our enemy. These things are used by God, buy they are still our enemy.

One other thing. I do believe in being thankful in the midst of our trial. Besides its' help in making us Godly, thankfulness keeps us positive, thus it is a boost to our immune system. It helps us heal naturally. I do believe though that suffering can bring God glory. I will never pretend to know what Gods will is in every situation. Just that what I do know is "Thy Kingdom Come, They will be done. On Earth as it is in Heaven." That is the marching orders. That is the prayer taught by Jesus. It is my only clue to Gods will. So I will pray like that. His will will be done no matter what. But my prayers of intercession might be part of that will. And Hope is a GOD THING!

4.More and more evidence is being brought to the medical world that our immune system is deeply effected by our state of mind. Depression can literally stop our white blood cells from working whereas joy gives it a boost. Every study shows this. Scripture says it. "A Merry heart doeth good like medicine, but by sorrow of the heart, the spirit is broken."

5. It can never be wrong to be thankful in all things. It is not healthy though to just sit back and not petition God for change. It goes against everything about life that God put in us. In other words, "Be happy while you die knocking!" Who knows, God just might anwser that knock.

[apothanein kerdos]

The only thing that I can really say I disagree on is you saying Moses and Abraham changed God's mind (it's a matter of interpretation), but that gets into an Open Theism debate, which would derail the thread

[Arthur Durnan]

God alone is the Healer. By the way, please inform us the first time a Benjamin Hinn or a Ken Copeland holds a Divine Healing Service in the local AIDS Ward or, even better (ie, because God would get the GREATER glory, yes?) in the local cemetery.

God will most certainly heal us of each & every ailment right up until the last one!

Then He (wonderful!) calls us home! AMEN!

Thank You, Jesus!

God Bless America!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Scudbuddy]

Super Jew,

"Also, careful in your interpretation of astheneia. This Greek word is refering to weakness to the body and/or the soul. It does depend on context as to which one it is refering to. In Luke 13:11 the Greek word is refering to the soul, that is, a weak and/or carnal spirit. Yet in John 5:5 we have to interpret astheneia to mean physical, because in context it wouldn't fit in the spiritual realm.

In interpreting 2 Corinthians 12:7, we learn that this is actually a physical weakness caused by an Evil Spirit. We know in Chapter 11 Paul is talking about how is is phyisically weak, yet will still boast in his weakness. So contextually we know that 12:7 should be talking about a physical weakness. When we look at the word buffet in the Greek we discover that kolaphizo is a purely physical action that refers to striking under the eye. We look to classical Greek writings to see that when "thorn" and "buffet" are together, it is always a physical action. In Mark 14:65 we see the word kolaphizo used again, again, a physical action. This is why scholars for centuries have agreed that the "thorn in the flesh" was an eye sight problem sent by an evil spirit. Further evidence of this is that most of Paul's letters were dictated. Why would an educated man need to have a letter dictated unless he couldn't see? Thus, God chose not to heal Paul of this eye problem, but to use it to His own glory."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First, John 5:5 is obvious in context to mean a physical infirmity. I acknowledged that infirmities according to context mean a different thing.

Second, I read chapter 11, and yes Paul boast in his weaknessess. But let us name those infirmities that caused his weaknessess. Vs.23-29

1.Hard labours

2. Whipped

3.Prison

4.Literally died often, only to have someone "Die knocking!"

5.Stripes again (I am listing these trials in order as listed.)

6.Beaten with rods

7.Suffered shipwreck

8.In the water for a day and a half.

9.Hard journeys

10.Perils of water. (I imagine that was either about ocean travel or river crossing or floods.)

11.Perils of being pursued by Jews to kill him.

12.Perils of pagans killing him.

13.Perils in the city

14.Perils in the wilderness

15.Perils in the sea

16.Perils among false accusers

17.Exhaustion

18.Pain

19.Watchings which I believe is keeping up through the night in intercession, but you might have something else to add to that.

20.Hunger

21.Thirst

22.Fasting often

23.Cold

24.Nakedness

25.Cares of administering the church

But not one mention of bad eyesight. He listed alot of things. Some three times. But nothing about blindness or poor eyesight. I would think that would be on the list before fasting or exhaustion. Or staying up to intercede. Ecspecially if that is what he is referring to in chapter 12. Because he sure makes a big deal about it there.

I am aware of what some scholars say about this. Again, it depends on perspective. I think the obvious is the anwser. I believe that Paul knew how to say he had an eye sight problem. I also think that God knows how to put in scripture a clear cut message on how to pray, and if He wanted us to pray "If it be thy will" when we pray for the sick, we would have had that as a prayer model.

I believe that the covering of Jesus face in Mark 14:65 caused Jesus to not be able to see. I believe that the buffet the scriptures talk about there is the beating he took. Just as when Paul uses it in his description of "buffeting his body" like a boxer. A boxer has to be able to take a hit as well as give one. That is why trainers don't just allow the boxer to hit people and bags, but to be hit by other boxers.

I believe those scholars are stretching a verse to fit their mindset, while ignoring the obvious context of the verse. And I can point to scholars who say the same thing. I also believe that if Paul was healed of his blindness in Acts after the Road to Damascus, then this would take away from that healing. "Maybe he wasn't healed? Maybe God didn't ........." All kinds of doubts can be raised if Pauls eyesight is bad after Acts claims he was healed. God doesn't operate in such a way as to cause legitimate doubt. He would at least explain clearly what that blindness is about.

No, Large letters were in reference to the length of the letters. You see, if he was having the letters dictated, then the person doing the writing would have no reason to write in large letters. The evidence that these scholars offer contradicts itself. Paul like most men in authority have professionals dictate their letters. Allows for them to not tire and think clearly. I have had a secretary before, and I can tell you that from experience. (You can probaly tell that I don't now have one by poor spelling and grammer. :down: )

[Scudbuddy]

The only thing that I can really say I disagree on is you saying Moses and Abraham changed God's mind (it's a matter of interpretation), but that gets into an Open Theism debate, which would derail the thread

Yes, that is a hard one. Again, I am not so foolish to think that I can outguide God. That I can give him advice. I think those passages were about the importance of man in the practice of intercession. The bible says that they changed Gods mind. I see it as God steering mans prayers to his will, and giving us the credit for it. Which is what He does when we "Die knocking!" If it truly isn't His will, we will die knocking with nothing to show for it but persistence and bended knee. That can't be a bad thing.