Tithing is unscriptural in the New Covenant

[Guest yod]

where your treasure is, there your heart is also...

---Jesus

[AmariYah]

I certainly believe that the concept of tithes and offerings has been distorted and tainted by the "prosperity" message often preached today (and by greedy ministers). HOWEVER, I think what you are teaching here is perhaps no better.

So, you think that teaching the truth about what the Bible actualy says about tithing and giving- is no better than teaching man made doctrines?

Why? Because we are blessed people. God has blessed us so that we can be a blessing. Giving a percentage of your income is a discipline that teaches us dependence on God. I agree that the amount should not be pre-set, but that each person should give according to how the Holy Spirit leads. But lets not forget, if we sow sparingly, we reap sparingly. You see what you said here is where we are in perfect agreement Tess!

2 Corinthians 9:6-8

6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

And you will note that I myself quoted this scripture from the very beginning...

You may not find the mandate to tithe in the New Testament, but what you will find is believers living under the covenant of Grace. Something my brother has said is, "If they could give under the law, I can certainly give under grace". The ppl in the old covenant were required to give and make sacrifices. We, on the other hand, have the blessing of giving freely ..and should do so REGULARLY out of a heart of gratitude. We have so much more reason to give than they did in the Old Covenant...we have been set free!. Romans 12: 1 tells us we should be living sacrifices. Every part of our lives (including finances) should be lived as an offering back to God. Here we are still in perfect agreement Tess.

The problem I have with this type of topic/teaching (that tithing is unbiblical), is that it seems to come from a spirit of ungratefulness. I'm not saying you're ungrateful, but it appears that some are searching for loopholes to free them from something they see as an obligation, rather than an honor. Not only that, but it also seems to possess an attitude of "what i have is mine to keep if i choose". Um, no. Everything you have belongs to God in the first place, not you.

Here is where you might be missing the point. As far as I know no one is feeling ungrateful towards God here- & everyone I know who has discovered this truth about Biblical giving is certainly not looking for any loop- holes. Quite the contrary- having been set free from false teaching and false doctrine, they are not only more free to prosper but also free to give cheerfully and generously. Believe me most people who feel like someone is trying to defraud them or coerce them out of their $$$ will actually hold on to it even tighter. Once they are taught the truth- they do not feel compelled- and are more able to give freely and liberally. (Yes, it can take some time if one has been held captive under a false doctrine for many years. But the end result of being set free in Christ Jesus according to sound doctrine from God's unadulterated word is always an abundance of blessing to all concerned.) In my experience with God's word, it is always a good and positive thing to #1 stay in God's word- #2 do not water His word down- #3 Do not add anything to His word. the point that is being made which you might be missing is: that "tithing" as it is commonly taught in Christian churches today is a doctrine of man and not of God. All I am doing here is exposing it for what it is- a perversion of God's word which robs many people of God's freedom concerning New Testament Christian giving.

Also, according to Scripture (Galatians 3 to be exact) those of us in Christ are heirs to the promises God made to Abraham. What were those promises? That we would be blessed ... so that we could BE a blessing. There's no getting around the fact that we are called to give and to give abundantly.

This is all very good Tess- but unfortunately there are literally thousands of preachers who teach a doctrine which says you will be cursed with a curse if you do not bring exactly 10% of your gross paycheck to me. Or they teach that you will have a special blessing and favor when and if you bring your $$$ to me since I am God's man of the hour. It is a good and positive thing to expose this as a false teaching and this message has the potnetial to set many people free from artificial bondage and condemnation which they really shouldn't be carrying if they are born again.

Therefore, I see no point in wasting time and energy trying to disprove tithes and offerings. In my opinion, time could be better spent reminding ppl how blessed they are and how they can use that blessing. I'm concerned that teaching ppl that tithing is "unbiblical" sends the message that "you don't owe God" ...when in all reality, we owe Him absolutely everything. Truth be told, we should be willing to lay everything down...not just 10% but 100% ... none of it really belongs to us anyway.

Well this is just a matter of opinion... Many Christians also see not point in showing Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and other pseudo Christian cults the error of their ways- But thank God that some believers are called to this apologetic ministry. The effective teacher or preacher who shows that "tithing" is un-biblical will also teach simultaneously about what the Bible is really saying about Christian giving- So there shouldn't be any danger of believers not knowing that they are incredibly blessed and that they do indeed owe everything to Jesus.

May you be exceedingly blessed and prospered in all that you do for the Lord Tess,

Amariah

[Rick]

What is being taught today is basically a way to make some very wealthy at the expense of those that are seeking help.

Generous giving = leaders becoming wealthy?

As it happens, I belong to a church where the members give generously every week. With this money we plant churches, feed the poor, pay the staff, etc.

We don't have a fancy building to maintain. Nothing left for a gym or a waterslide, etc.

As for the lifestyles of our leaders: I have been into their homes, which are not luxurious. No fancy cars, private schools, no designer clothes, no jet-setting vacations.

Looks like a whola lotta generalizing here.

Steve,

Im not saying that giving should not be done, just that the reason for giving should be based on the abundance of the heart instead of obligation. Im sure there are many that use tithes in a productive way. But Im also just as sure that there are those that use tithes for their own personal benefit. My gripe is with those that stand before a needy congregation and through legalism and error use tithing as a way of extorting money from those who need it most. Many will stand boldly and declare that tithing is required of them. Then they will continue to call for the member to give their God due 10%. And if they fail to do so, they lack faith, or will not recieve the blessings of God. In some cases they may even suffer loss because they failed to plant this " seed money". Im sure we all have heard of those that do this, the whole time living far above the meager earnings of those that in most cases are the target of their selfish greed.

Not all denominations are Biblically sound. But yet one thing most have in common is that they require financial support in order to continue. Sure there are needs to be met. But through obligation and basically a spiritual threat, the members are called to support these unsound and sometimes harmful religious organizations. Maybe its because they lack cheerful givers and need to coerce in order to acquire the money they need to operate. Whereas if it was a God centered group without a love for money, whose spiritual needs were being met Biblically through their church, the love of God and the desire to reach out with the gospel to others would compel them to be those cheerful givers. The early church grew with alot less than present day churches. The gospel was taken by foot to those that were encountered. It continued to grow and prosper. Not through the love of money, but through the love of God.

How many modern day religious organizations are actually no different than the temple that had the money changers? They operate a den of thieves. It's these I speak of.

God Bless!

Rick

[Shelby]

I guess I am on the outside of this. MY church appoints ministers to the churches. The ministers just move every 2-7 years. They have really nothing but personal belongings so they are able to move so often. The church provides a house and a vehicle, and they receive no more than $300/week. But we do live decently. It is uniform, the International Leaders get paid fromt eh same pay scale as the local ministers. (they do get a small raise because of their travels), but it is a very even system. I think it shows God provides. So no matter the tithes, the ministers get like a 2% raise a year just for cost of living and it is a National thing not local.

So all in all I am out of the loop.

[Guest Called]

where your treasure is, there your heart is also...

---Jesus

AMEN!

[stevehut]

Now does this mean that you don't have to give? Of coarse not! We can give generously as the Holy Spirit guides us not under the compulsion of some self proclaimed men of God.

So you took all that time to explain the definition of a word...

Only to say yes, we should give...but we can't call it a tithe...

[stevehut]

Rick,

So if I understand you corectly:

Your issue isn't really about giving money at all. It's about sound doctrine and stewardship. (??)

[Guest Jason-P]

I'm not really arguing persay, but I would like someone's opinion about certain scriptures. First off, when NT verses refer to scripture they are referring to the Old Testament. So when 2Timothy 3:16 says that All scripture is given by inspiration of God, or when Hebrews4:12 says that the Word of God is living and powerfull, we know that at that time there was no NT nor any canon of scripture as we have it today. There fore they were referring to the OT.

That being said, I fear shirking off scriptures. I am wondering what do you do with Malachi. If it's no longer true or accurate, then do we disregard that portion of scripture? I mean, it's implications are direct, not vague. So what do we do with it? Scratch it out of our bibles as not for us today? It's a question that nags me in regard to tithing or not tithing.

Also Proverbs says something very interesting about tithing.

(Pro 3:7) Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear Jehovah and depart from evil.

(Pro 3:8) Healing shall be to your navel and marrow to your bones.

(Pro 3:9) Honor Jehovah with your substance, and with the firstfruits of all your increase;

I think we agree that proverbs is a timeless book of wisdom, correct? It intimates tithing as fearing God and being wise in God's eyes, while not tithing is being wise in our eyes, and not fearing God. Is that right?

I don't want to argue or say who's right or wrong, but before I drop tithing, something has to be done with these scriptures to reconcile them with not tithing any longer.

I agree that tithing is really pushed to heavily, and especially with the TV people, to whom tithes should probably not go to. What is someone's opinion on these verses.

Thanks,

Jason

[Guest yod]

Abraham tithed to Malchizadek before there was a law. If we are the spiritual seed of Abraham then what is the problem?

If you don't want to tithe to your church, I would totally understand. I tithe by giving to people who would be touched by it. I try to use the unrighteous mammon to make friends in the world by helping them.

I don't actually calculate whether it's 10% or not. It is usually over in my estimation...but the Lord knows I'm a hilarious giver and His opinion is all that matters.

I do agree that this "tithe teaching" is a beating in the church. They have actually caused the opposite to happen because christians are LESS likely to open their wallets in churches that give this sermon every week before the collection plate. And most of the money in that plate is given under compulsion which means there is no reward.

Another good thing about messianic congregations....we put a box in the back and you give or you don't. Not a problem...

[AmariYah]

I'm not really arguing persay, but I would like someone's opinion about certain scriptures. First off, when NT verses refer to scripture they are referring to the Old Testament. So when 2Timothy 3:16 says that All scripture is given by inspiration of God, or when Hebrews4:12 says that the Word of God is living and powerfull, we know that at that time there was no NT nor any canon of scripture as we have it today. There fore they were referring to the OT.

That being said, I fear shirking off scriptures. I am wondering what do you do with Malachi. If it's no longer true or accurate, then do we disregard that portion of scripture? I mean, it's implications are direct, not vague. So what do we do with it? Scratch it out of our bibles as not for us today? It's a question that nags me in regard to tithing or not tithing.

No of coarse we do not need to scratch out any scriptures. It's all about context, and to whom the word of God was originally given... In the case of the book of Malachi this whole book was written to the sons of Jacob- primarily the priests and Levites. These people were living under the Old Covenant and were not only subject to the Laws of Moses but they were also the leaders who were suppose to be examples to the Nation of Israel. When you read throughout the Old Testament and specifically in Deuteronomy you will see that there are indeed many blessing and cursings that go hand in hand with keeping or not keeping the Law. This of coarse included tithing. (Read the first post to get a perspective on exactly who God was rebuking in Malachi 3.) This precious book of Malachi still serves as an example and a type and shadow to those of us living in the New Covenant- but we are by no means subject to it because we have A NEW AND BETTER COVENANT! Something I pointed out in a previous post which is extremely important here is that Biblical tithing scarecely even resembles the doctrine of "tithing" commonly taught today. And without a Temple with a storehouse and without Levites it is quite impossible to actually practice tithing according to the Bible in our society today!

Also Proverbs says something very interesting about tithing.

(Pro 3:7) Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear Jehovah and depart from evil.

(Pro 3:8) Healing shall be to your navel and marrow to your bones.

(Pro 3:9) Honor Jehovah with your substance, and with the firstfruits of all your increase;

I think we agree that proverbs is a timeless book of wisdom, correct? It intimates tithing as fearing God and being wise in God's eyes, while not tithing is being wise in our eyes, and not fearing God. Is that right?

I don't want to argue or say who's right or wrong, but before I drop tithing, something has to be done with these scriptures to reconcile them with not tithing any longer.

I agree that tithing is really pushed to heavily, and especially with the TV people, to whom tithes should probably not go to. What is someone's opinion on these verses.

Thanks,

Jason

Now if a believer is led of the Spirit to give in a like manner to Abraham then let him obey the voice of God. But let's keep a perspective here on exactly when and how the patriarch practiced tithing. according to the Bible Abraham gave only once that we know of- and that particular time he did not give even one penny out of his own great wealth! Look at the verses of scripture again- Abraham gave one tenth OUT OF THE SPOILS OF WAR! In other words he gave one tenth of the belongings of the Sodomites which Abraham and his men had just recovered. NOW THERE IS A TRUTH OF THE HOLY BIBLE THAT YOU NEVER HEAR ANY PREACHERS GIVE A COMPLETE AND HONEST SERMON ON!

"Folks according to the Bible you should tithe like Abraham did to the servant of the Most High God- just bring your 10% offering once in your lifetime, when and if you ever help someone recover lost or stolen property!" This is the honest and correct exhortation based upon the Holy Scriptures.

Edited August 13, 2004 by AmariYah