On no, not another threadon Acts 2:38!

[Rick-Parker]

This is a clear example of ES-OSAS DRIVEL!!!! See how he holds on to the son analogy and tries to apply it to the spiritual reality. It ends in total DRIVEL! Christians end up in Hell!!!!!!!!!!! And No this not what John 10:28,29 is talking about. It is true that no outside force can remove someone from Gods Kingdom. However, this this not mean that the person in the Kingdom cannot choose to leave under his own will. If a person chooses to leave this is sin, and that sin will remove you from from the KIngdom of God. Prodigal son is a clear example of this.

e

Interesting that you would call God's Word drivel. For even if you disagree on the interpretation of Scripture, it is still written in God's Word. Some one is wrong in their interpretation since there is disagreement, but you don't know if it is yours' or the others' which is wrong. One is being lead by the Holy Spirit, the other is not. And you are not the one who is the final authority on the matter. Perhaps you should learn how to control your mind since that is what comes out of your mouth.

p

[Guest]

And if ye call on the Father,

who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Peter 1:17-19

>>>>>()<<<<<

.... This is a clear example of ES-OSAS DRIVEL!!!! See how he holds on to the son analogy and tries to apply it to the spiritual reality. It ends in total DRIVEL! Christians end up in Hell!!!!!!!!!!! And No this not what John 10:28,29 is talking about. It is true that no outside force can remove someone from Gods Kingdom. However, this this not mean that the person in the Kingdom cannot choose to leave under his own will. If a person chooses to leave this is sin, and that sin will remove you from from the Kingdom of God. Prodigal son is a clear example of this....

.... Interesting that you would call God's Word drivel. For even if you disagree on the interpretation of Scripture, it is still written in God's Word. Some one is wrong in their interpretation since there is disagreement, but you don't know if it is yours' or the others' which is wrong. One is being lead by the Holy Spirit, the other is not. And you are not the one who is the final authority on the matter. Perhaps you should learn how to control your mind since that is what comes out of your mouth....

Well Actually

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. Matthew 15:18

Perhaps Dear Brother e lansing Is Not The Root Cause Of This "Disturbance" Within Our Fellowship

For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. James 1:20

For There Are "Elders" Who In The Name Of Water Baptism Would Condemn All Believers Trusting In Jesus Christ And Him Crucified Alone For Their Salvation

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5

And Who Write Books And Such And Who Preach Sermons Crying All Others Are In Error

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20

Saying, I Along Know The Truth And The Way To The Father

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

And I Alone Will Truly Baptize You

John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Luke 3:16

And I Alone Will Teach You

So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Revelation 2:15

So Follow Me See

But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. Revelation 2:6

Follow Me

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:2

Follow

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:27

Or Die

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18

>>>>>()<<<<<

Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

And Be Blessed Beloved

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Romans 8:15

Love, Joe

[UncleAbee]

I'm going to reply to this with James 2:22 - "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;"

In this scripture the formula is faith added with works = the perfection of faith. The perfection of faith = salvation. Your equation adds faith & salvation. James's equation adds faith and works. We need faith to do the works. The works that faith produces are judged by God. What is hard for most to understand is that you work because you are saved and you work to be saved. Both are true. You are saved when you become a Christian; you are being saved as you work by faith in Christ; you are eternally saved in the end by the grace of God.

And I shall reply with this: For what does the Scripture say? who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 2 Timothy 1:9 NKJV

You see works are removed from the formula. Salvation is BY grace, THROUGH faith. ANY works done prior to salvation are in vain. Works are a result of a person that has experienced salvation exercising their faith, that is how their faith is made perfect.

Noah was saved after he built the ark. I'll let you tell Noah that building the ark had zero to do with his salvation. 2 Tim 1:9 is saying that we are not the "authors of salvation" not that there is nothing for us to do to receive the salvation that Christ authored. Salvation did not come to the world because of something you or I did. Therefore it is not according to "our works."

You said "Works are a result of a person that has experienced salvation exercising their faith, that is how their faith is made perfect." This is not what James says in James 2:22 - "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;" James says that faith combined with works produces salvation. Salvation = faith perfected. James 2:24 says - "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Everything God gave (faith, works, grace) is necessary for your salvation.

Noah was saved prior to his building the Ark, or else he would never have done what God commanded. (Do lost people usually adhere to God's commands? NO. Or else they would believe on His Son and be saved.)

Paul is saying Faith is the only catalyst that can react to God's grace and produce salvation. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Epesians 2:8-10 KJV

The works ONLY come from us, AFTER God has done His work in us.

I love these debates. I hope no one is getting offended with me. OK........

To me most have a one sided view of salvation. Most view works as only a response to salvation. Noah was "in a saved state" before the flood. But, if he wanted to stay saved he had to build the ark and get in it. Let me give an example. You are sleeping in your house. Your spouse wakes you up as says "the house is on fire." You run out of the house and your life is saved. Two questions. 1) Why were you saved? - You were saved because you believed your wife. 2) WHEN were you saved? - You were saved after you ran out the house. Question - Were you saved at the very moment you believed your wife? In the same why Noah was saved because he believed God. That's the "why." The "when" is after he built the ark and got on it. Christianity works the same way. You are saved because you believe God but not until after you obey his commands. This is how faith and works co-operate together to perfect faith (James 2:22). I work because I am saved and to continue in that salvation.

You wrote - "(Do lost people usually adhere to God's commands? NO. Or else they would believe on His Son and be saved.)" - Sure they do. Isn't a person lost before they become a Christian? Were you a Christian from birth? You had to respond to Jesus to be saved.

[UncleAbee]

Alright, guys, there's an issue that has bothered me for some time; maybe someone here can offer an insight...

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Here's the text of acts 2:38. Some people in here have suggested that the word "for" (Greek: eis) causes the sentence to mean "because your sins are already forgiven."

But if this is the case, then...at what point were they forgiven? I don't know, what do you think? As far as I can tell, up this point, the people did nothing and nothing happened to them. Given the broader teaching of the Bible, in both testaments, it seems strange to suggest that repentance should follow salvation.

Any takers?

People ought to follow the Bible rather than fancying themselves as being able to correct it.

The fact that their is such a thing as you've brought out in this thread makes me ill.

I beleve you are quite correct, however, let me point out that Cornelius in Acts 10 receives the Holy Spirit BEFORE Baptism as the first indication that Baptism is not necessary for Salvation but is a wittness once Saved.

Second: If Baptism were truly necessary for Salvation. When a Gentile asks a inspired Apostle led by the Holy Spirit what one must do to be saved. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit merely forgot to mention Baptism? what view of God does that put forward? one that is Abscent minded at best.

Yet in Acts 16 the Philippian Jailer a gentile asks Paul what must I do to be saved and the anwser is Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is never mentioned in connection with salvation when the full question is asked. Either God is forgetful, or its not a part of salvation but an act to obey

once your saved.

Well.......what did Peter say in response to the question in Acts 2:38. In Acts 16 with the jailor you have to continue reading. Paul spoke words to the jailor. The jailor was baptized and then all the celebrating occurred. It ended up by saying Acts 16:34 - "And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household." "Having believed" is all the thing the jailor accepted and performed to be saved. There was no celebrating until after the baptism. Why not celebrate before the baptism if one is saved at the point of belief? If the jailor was saved at the point of baptism why baptize him immediately. Why not wait for "the special baptism service" at the end of the month? Brothers......you gotta keep reading and stop pulling one or two verses to support your stance.

By no means am I saying I earned my own salvation. I am saying that through faith I received the salvation that Christ brought.

Now, my preacher said that faith = trust + works. I don't fully agree with him though. I believe rather that faith is "believing in something to the point where you know you will do something." You still have to do the work to be saved though. Faith gives you the power to do the work.

[EricH]

Alright, guys, there's an issue that has bothered me for some time; maybe someone here can offer an insight...

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Here's the text of acts 2:38. Some people in here have suggested that the word "for" (Greek: eis) causes the sentence to mean "because your sins are already forgiven."

But if this is the case, then...at what point were they forgiven? I don't know, what do you think? As far as I can tell, up this point, the people did nothing and nothing happened to them. Given the broader teaching of the Bible, in both testaments, it seems strange to suggest that repentance should follow salvation.

Any takers?

People ought to follow the Bible rather than fancying themselves as being able to correct it.

The fact that their is such a thing as you've brought out in this thread makes me ill.

I beleve you are quite correct, however, let me point out that Cornelius in Acts 10 receives the Holy Spirit BEFORE Baptism as the first indication that Baptism is not necessary for Salvation but is a wittness once Saved.

Second: If Baptism were truly necessary for Salvation. When a Gentile asks a inspired Apostle led by the Holy Spirit what one must do to be saved. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit merely forgot to mention Baptism? what view of God does that put forward? one that is Abscent minded at best.

Yet in Acts 16 the Philippian Jailer a gentile asks Paul what must I do to be saved and the anwser is Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is never mentioned in connection with salvation when the full question is asked. Either God is forgetful, or its not a part of salvation but an act to obey

once your saved.

Well.......what did Peter say in response to the question in Acts 2:38. In Acts 16 with the jailor you have to continue reading. Paul spoke words to the jailor. The jailor was baptized and then all the celebrating occurred. It ended up by saying Acts 16:34 - "And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household." "Having believed" is all the thing the jailor accepted and performed to be saved. There was no celebrating until after the baptism. Why not celebrate before the baptism if one is saved at the point of belief? If the jailor was saved at the point of baptism why baptize him immediately. Why not wait for "the special baptism service" at the end of the month? Brothers......you gotta keep reading and stop pulling one or two verses to support your stance.

By no means am I saying I earned my own salvation. I am saying that through faith I received the salvation that Christ brought.

Now, my preacher said that faith = trust + works. I don't fully agree with him though. I believe rather that faith is "believing in something to the point where you know you will do something." You still have to do the work to be saved though. Faith gives you the power to do the work.

Actually faith is defined in scripture:

Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen. (Hebrews 11:1 HCSB)

The remander of the chapter contains example of what faith allowed people to do..."by faith Abraham

The grammatical contruction indicates that faith was the agent that enabled the works (not that faith was the works)

[Guest]

Faith

But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2 Timothy 3:13-15

Not Strut

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4

>>>>>()<<<<<

Actually faith is defined in scripture:

Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen. (Hebrews 11:1 HCSB)

The remander of the chapter contains example of what faith allowed people to do..."by faith Abraham

The grammatical construction indicates that faith was the agent that enabled the works (not that faith was the works)

Thank You Dear Eric

A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver. Proverbs 25:11

>>>>>()<<<<<

When I See Folks Teaching Salvation By Works

He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them. He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail. 2 Samuel 2:8-9

And Hear Of Righteousness By Works Added To The Work Of The LORD At Calvary

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

I Usually See Some Taskmaster Or Another Trampling Upon Holy Blood

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Peter 1:18-19

While Condemning The Children Of Grace

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Peter 1:23

And Sitting In Master's Place

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Ephesians 1:17-23

Oh How I Love Jesus

[e lansing]

This is a clear example of ES-OSAS DRIVEL!!!! See how he holds on to the son analogy and tries to apply it to the spiritual reality. It ends in total DRIVEL! Christians end up in Hell!!!!!!!!!!! And No this not what John 10:28,29 is talking about. It is true that no outside force can remove someone from Gods Kingdom. However, this this not mean that the person in the Kingdom cannot choose to leave under his own will. If a person chooses to leave this is sin, and that sin will remove you from from the KIngdom of God. Prodigal son is a clear example of this.

e

Dude, this has nothing to do with ES, nothing at all. You are obsessed and it is starting to affect your ability to think straight.

Please, for the sake of all of us, step back and take a deep breath

it sure comes out in a lot of things people write who believe as such.

[e lansing]

This is a clear example of ES-OSAS DRIVEL!!!!

e

Please take note of the terms of serice. Calling people's opinions drivel is a personal attack. Please refrain

So when gator tells me I need professional help, that is christ like? it appears that the only ones who get corrected are those who disagree with most here at WF. Or if someone like fresno joe calles me wicked indirectly by quoting scripture this is ok as well? These attact me and yet i give my opinion about a doctrine and it is called an attact on someones person?!!! Maybe if I was in your camp, i would get a free pass! not suprised at all by this.

e

[e lansing]

This is a clear example of ES-OSAS DRIVEL!!!! See how he holds on to the son analogy and tries to apply it to the spiritual reality. It ends in total DRIVEL! Christians end up in Hell!!!!!!!!!!! And No this not what John 10:28,29 is talking about. It is true that no outside force can remove someone from Gods Kingdom. However, this this not mean that the person in the Kingdom cannot choose to leave under his own will. If a person chooses to leave this is sin, and that sin will remove you from from the KIngdom of God. Prodigal son is a clear example of this.

e

Interesting that you would call God's Word drivel. For even if you disagree on the interpretation of Scripture, it is still written in God's Word. Some one is wrong in their interpretation since there is disagreement, but you don't know if it is yours' or the others' which is wrong. One is being lead by the Holy Spirit, the other is not. And you are not the one who is the final authority on the matter. Perhaps you should learn how to control your mind since that is what comes out of your mouth.

p

I am not suprised by your twisting of my words, its what you do. Big difference between calling Gods word drivel and someones opinion, like yours, drivel. This may require you to stop twisting my words and appling your meaning to them for you to understand the difference between calling Gods word drivel and ones opinion. And so you do not even realize that your argument cuts both ways. Because you agree with the rest in your camp, I am wrong and am not being lead by the Holy Spirit because you think I am wrong. it appears that you and the rest cannot handle differing opinions and are reduced to attacting a person. So I should control my mind to control my mouth! So is the nice way to tell me to shut up? You will get a free pass on your christ likeness by your peers and that is fine. I will continue to pray for you and the rest.

e

[e lansing]

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. Matthew 15:18

Perhaps Dear Brother e lansing Is Not The Root Cause Of This "Disturbance" Within Our Fellowship

For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. James 1:20

Wow, just because you can use scripture to show how you feel about me, is the same as telling me directly. So because you think my heart is full of defilement I am defiled. How is this not an attact on me? O help! where are all the morel police like Pault and Parker? Just because I have a different opinion and share it with passion, I am bringing wrath to your fellowship? Someone once said "he who lives in glass houses, should not throw stones". I love ya Joe, but it feels a bit chilly in Fresno.

e