Guest astralis Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 Racer, :???: Explain the relationship between your two different statements. It sounds like an ad hominem attack on Church Authority to me. Because I don't understand, how does Catholic Teaching Authority and a discussion among lay persons equate? Please explain. Or was it just an attack on Catholic Authority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest racer Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 astralis, Because, it is clearly apparent to me, that you can not keep up with simple discussions and debates amongst the people on this MB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest astralis Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 I've always believed that when someone can't attack my argument, then they will attack me. You have proved my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest racer Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 Umm, You proved that! Just look at what you posted after you challenged me to provide you with evidence of the "Original Hebrew Text." All that information I posted you responded: I think 33,000 Protestant Denominations are enough to explain this. This was a post a page or two back which had absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. You continually divert the subject when you are put on the spot. Whats up with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest astralis Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 You have not proved that the Masoretic Text is the "Original Hebrew Text" when in fact there was no canon among Jews before AD 90 when it was chosen at the Council of Jamnia sixty years after the death of our Lord which makes it unbinding on Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest racer Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 astralis, Would the Dead Sea Scrolls be authoratitive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest racer Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 astralis, This is from the other thread. You said: Many Christians do not realize that some of their favorite passages in the New Testament Gospels are deuterocanonical - their inspiration was in doubt and contested for significant periods of Church history: Mk 16:9-20 Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him, as they mourned and wept. 11 But when they heard that he was alive and had been seen by her, they would not believe it. 12 After this he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country. 13 And they went back and told the rest, but they did not believe them. 14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they sat at table; and he upbraided them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover." 19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it. Amen. Lk 22:43-44 43 (And to strengthen him an angel from heaven appeared to him. 44 He was in such agony and he prayed so fervently that his sweat became like drops of blood falling on the ground.) Jn 5:4 For from time to time an angel of the Lord used to come down into the pool, and the water was stirred up, so that the first one to get in (after the stirring of the water) was healed of whatever disease afflicted him. Jn 8:1-11 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple; all the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?" 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again." How many people are willing to throw out the story of the adulterous woman, the story that Jesus' sweat was like blood during the Agony in the Garden, the story of the angel stirring the pool, or Christ's appearance to Mary Magdelene? Yet, why whould one accept deuterocanonical New Testament passages and accounts while rejecting deuterocanonical Old Testament passages and accounts? If the Popes and the Church Councils got it wrong with the Old Testament, why would they get it right with the New Testament? If bishops who could trace their consecration back to Peter and the Apostles were not infallible in their definitions, why should today's Christians be so certain that THEY have the true canon of Scripture? One could argue that Christians couldn't be wrong on something so basic, and yet, historically speaking, if sola scriptura Christians are correct, the whole of Christendom MUST have been wrong for some period of time prior to Trent, for the whole Church admitted the deuterocanonical Old Testament books; everyone used them in liturgical worship during the several centuries leading up to Trent. How do we know we aren't still all wrong today, just as they were all wrong in that era? Without an infallible teaching authority, there is simply no way to tell. I'm not sure how this proves use of the Deuterocanons in the NT. :???: What am I missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest astralis Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 So, then should we add the Gospel of Thomas and the Book of Enoch? The Early Christians were not certain which books were inspired or not. It wasn't until the Council of Rome that a canon was officially confirmed and this didn't go without controversy. For example, the previous post before this mentions many of the verses in the NT which were not accepted by all questions and were questioned by Christians for many years. But, it's in our Bible today because of the ecumenical councils. They also decided that the Gospel of Thomas and the Book of Enoch are not inspired texts (although they may be inspiring to read, they're not inspired). We only know they're not inspired because the Holy Spirit led these councils to confirm the canon we use. At every council the same canon was confirmed and it's the same that is used in the Catholic Bible. It wasn't until the Reformation that books were cut out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munari Posted July 22, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 444 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2002 I hope I'm putting this in the right place... Racer, you said: astralis, You asked for references and you got them at least 100 or 200 of them - I didn't count. What's the problem? Like I said, just a tad bit dishonest - 100 or 200? Ha! References to what? Just to make sure you and everyone else sees it, I'm going to post the entire list the web page astralis gave you right here. from: http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/deutero3.htm Matthew Matthew 4:4 Wisdom 16:26 Matthew 4:15 1 Maccabees 5:15 Matthew 5:18 Baruch 4:1 Matthew 5:28 Sirach 9:8 Matthew 5:2ss Sirach 25:7-12 Matthew 5:4 Sirach 48:24 Matthew 6:7 Sirach 7:14 Matthew 6:9 Sirach 23:1, 4 Matthew 6:10 1 Maccabees 3:60 Matthew 6:12 Sirach 28:2 Matthew 6:13 Sirach 33:1 Matthew 6:20 Sirach 29:10s Matthew 6:23 Sirach 14:10 Matthew 6:33 Wisdom 7:11 Matthew 7:12 Tobit 4:15 Matthew 7:12 Sirach 31:15 Matthew 7:16 Sirach 27:6 Matthew 8:11 Baruch 4:37 Matthew 8:21 Tobit 4:3 Matthew 9:36 Judith 11:19 Matthew 9:38 1 Maccabees 12:17 Matthew 10:16 Sirach 13:17 Matthew 11:14 Sirach 48:10 Matthew 11:22 Judith 16:17 Matthew 11:25 Tobit 7:17 Matthew 11:25 Sirach 51:1 Matthew 11:28 Sirach 24:19 Matthew 11:28 Sirach 51:23 Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:24s Matthew 11:29 Sirach 6:28s Matthew 11:29 Sirach 51:26s Matthew 12:4 2 Maccabees 10:3 Matthew 12:5 Sirach 40:15 Matthew 13:44 Sirach 20:30s Matthew 16:18 Wisdom 16:13 Matthew 16:22 1 Maccabees 2:21 Matthew 16:27 Sirach 35:22 Matthew 17:11 Sirach 48:10 Matthew 18:10 Tobit 12:15 Matthew 20:2 Tobit 5:15 Matthew 22:13 Wisdom 17:2 Matthew 23:38 Tobit 14:4 Matthew 24:15 1 Maccabees 1:54 Matthew 24:15 2 Maccabees 8:17 Matthew 24:16 1 Maccabees 2:28 Matthew 25:35 Tobit 4:17 Matthew 25:36 Sirach 7:32-35 Matthew 26:38 Sirach 37:2 Matthew 27:24 Daniel 13:46 Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:13 Matthew 27:43 Wisdom 2:18-20 Mark Mark 1:15 Tobit 14:5 Mark 4:5 Sirach 40:15 Mark 4:11 Wisdom 2:22 Mark 5:34 Judith 8:35 Mark 6:49 Wisdom 17:15 Mark 8:37 Sirach 26:14 Mark 9:31 Sirach 2:18 Mark 9:48 Judith 16:17 Mark 10:18 Sirach 4:1 Mark 14:34 Sirach 37:2 Mark 15:29 Wisdom 2:17s Luke Luke 1:17 Sirach 48:10 Luke 1:19 Tobit 12:15 Luke 1:42 Judith 13:18 Luke 1:52 Sirach 10:14 Luke 2:29 Tobit 11:9 Luke 2:37 Judith 8:6 Luke 6:35 Wisdom 15:1 Luke 7:22 Sirach 48:5 Luke 9:8 Sirach 48:10 Luke 10:17 Tobit 7:17 Luke 10:19 Sirach 11:19 Luke 10:21 Sirach 51:1 Luke 12:19 Tobit 7:10 Luke 12:20 Wisdom 15:8 Luke 13:25 Tobit 14:4 Luke 13:27 1 Maccabees 3:6 Luke 13:29 Baruch 4:37 Luke 14:13 Tobit 2:2 Luke 15:12 1 Maccabees 10:29 [30] Luke 15:12 Tobit 3:17 Luke 18:7 Sirach 35:22 Luke 19:44 Wisdom 3:7 Luke 21:24 Tobit 14:5 Luke 21:24 Sirach 28:18 Luke 21:25 Wisdom 5:22 Luke 24:4 2 Maccabees 3:26 Luke 24:31 2 Maccabees 3:34 Luke 24:50 Sirach 50:20s Luke 24:53 Sirach 50:22 John John 1:3 Wisdom 9:1 John 3:8 Sirach 16:21 John 3:12 Wisdom 9:16 John 3:12 Wisdom 18:15s John 3:13 Baruch 3:29 John 3:28 1 Maccabees 9:39 John 3:32 Tobit 4:6 John 4:9 Sirach 50:25s John 4:48 Wisdom 8:8 John 5:18 Wisdom 2:16 John 6:35 Sirach 24:21 John 7:38 Sirach 24:40, 43[30s] John 8:44 Wisdom 2:24 John 8:53 Sirach 44:19 John 10:20 Wisdom 5:4 John 10:22 1 Maccabees 4:59 John 14:15 Wisdom 6:18 John 15:9s Wisdom 3:9 John 17:3 Wisdom 15:3 John 20:22 Wisdom 15:11 Acts Acts 1:10 2 Maccabees 3:26 Acts 1:18 Wisdom 4:19 Acts 2:4 Sirach 48:12 Acts 2:11 Sirach 36:7 Acts 2:39 Sirach 24:32 Acts 4:24 Judith 9:12 Acts 5:2 2 Maccabees 4:32 Acts 5:12 1 Maccabees 12:6 Acts 5:21 2 Maccabees 1:10 Acts 5:39 2 Maccabees 7:19 Acts 9:1-29 2 Maccabees 3:24-40 Acts 9:2 1 Maccabees 15:21 Acts 9:7 Wisdom 18:1 Acts 10:2 Tobit 12:8 Acts 10:22 1 Maccabees 10:25 Acts 10:22 1 Maccabees 11:30, 33 etc. Acts 10:26 Wisdom 7:1 Acts 10:30 2 Maccabees 11:8 Acts 10:34 Sirach 35:12s Acts 10:36 Wisdom 6:7 Acts 10:36 Wisdom 8:3 etc. Acts 11:18 Wisdom 12:19 Acts 12:5 Judith 4:9 Acts 12:10 Sirach 19:26 Acts 12:23 Judith 16:17 Acts 12:23 Sirach 48:21 Acts 12:23 1 Maccabees 7:41 Acts 12:23 2 Maccabees 9:9 Acts 13:10 Sirach 1:30 Acts 13:17 Wisdom 19:10 Acts 14:14 Judith 14:16s Acts 14:15 Wisdom 7:3 Acts 15:4 Judith 8:26 Acts 16:14 2 Maccabees 1:4 Acts 17:23 Wisdom 14:20 Acts 17:23 Wisdom 15:17 Acts 17:24, 25 Wisdom 9:1 Acts 17:24 Tobit 7:17 Acts 17:24 Wisdom 9:9 Acts 17:26 Wisdom 7:18 Acts 17:27 Wisdom 13:6 Acts 17:29 Wisdom 13:10 Acts 17:30 Sirach 28:7 Acts 19:27 Wisdom 3:17 Acts 19:28 Daniel 14:18, 41 Acts 20:26 Daniel 13:46 Acts 20:32 Wisdom 5:5 Acts 20:35 Sirach 4:31 Acts 21:26 1 Maccabees 3:49 Acts 22.9 Wisdom 18.1 Acts 24:2 2 Maccabees 4:6 Acts 26:18 Wisdom 5:5 Acts 26:25 Judith 10:13 Romans Romans 1:19-32 Wisdom 13-15 Romans 1:21 Wisdom 13:1 Romans 1:23 Wisdom 11:15 Romans 1:23 Wisdom 12:24 Romans 1:28 2 Maccabees 6:4 Romans 2:4 Wisdom 11:23 Romans 2:11 Sirach 35:12s Romans 2:15 Wisdom 17:11 Romans 4:13 Sirach 44:21 Romans 4:17 Sirach 44:19 Romans 5:5 Sirach 18:11 Romans 5:12 Wisdom 2:24 Romans 9:4 Sirach 44:12 Romans 9:4 2 Maccabees 6:23 Romans 9:19 Wisdom 12:12 Romans 9:21 Wisdom 15:7 Romans 9:31 Sirach 27:8 Romans 9:31 Wisdom 2:11 Romans 10.7 Wisdom 16.13 Romans 10:6 Baruch 3:29 Romans 11:4 2 Maccabees 2:4 Romans 11:15 Sirach 10:20s Romans 11:33 Wisdom 17:1 Romans 12:15 Sirach 7:34 Romans 13:1 Sirach 4:27 Romans 13:1 Wisdom 6:3s Romans 13.10 Wisdom 6.18 Romans 15:4 1 Maccabees 12:9 Romans 15:8 Sirach 36:20 1 Corinthians 1 Corinthians 1:24 Wisdom 7:24s 1 Corinthians 2:16 Wisdom 9:13 1 Corinthians 2:9 Sirach 1:10 1 Corinthians 4:13 Tobit 5:19 1 Corinthians 4:14 Wisdom 11:10 1 Corinthians 6:2 Wisdom 3:8 1 Corinthians 6:12 Sirach 37:28 1 Corinthians 6:13 Sirach 36:18 1 Corinthians 6:18 Sirach 23:17 1 Corinthians 7:19 Sirach 32:23 1 Corinthians 9:19 Sirach 6:19 1 Corinthians 9:25 Wisdom 4:2 1 Corinthians 10:1 Wisdom 19:7s 1 Corinthians 10:20 Baruch 4:7 1 Corinthians 10:23 Sirach 37:28 1 Corinthians 11:7 Sirach 17:3 1 Corinthians 11:7 Wisdom 2:23 1 Corinthians 11:24 Wisdom 16:6 1 Corinthians 15:29 2 Maccabees 12:43s 1 Corinthians 15:32 Wisdom 2:5s 1 Corinthians 15:34 Wisdom 13:1 2 Corinthians 2 Corinthians 5:1, 4 Wisdom 9:15 2 Corinthians 12:12 Wisdom 10:16 Galatians Galatians 2:6 Sirach 35:13 Galatians 4:4 Tobit 14:5 Galatians 6:1 Wisdom 17:17 Ephesians Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 45:1 Ephesians 1:6 Sirach 46:13 Ephesians 1:17 Wisdom 7:7 Ephesians 4:14 Sirach 5:9 Ephesians 4:24 Wisdom 9:3 Ephesians 6:12 Wisdom 5:17 Ephesians 6:14 Wisdom 5:18 Ephesians 6:16 Wisdom 5:19, 21 Philippians Philippians 4:5 Wisdom 2:19 Philippians 4:13 Wisdom 7:23 Philippians 4:18 Sirach 35:6 Colossian Colossians 2:3 Sirach 1:24s 1 Thessalonians 1 Thessalonians 3:11 Judith 12:8 1 Thessalonians 4:6 Sirach 5:3 1 Thessalonians 4:13 Wisdom 3:18 1 Thessalonians 5:1 Wisdom 8:8 1 Thessalonians 5:2 Wisdom 18:14s 1 Thessalonians 5:3 Wisdom 17:14 1 Thessalonians 5:8 Wisdom 5:18 2 Thessalonians 2 Thessalonians 2:1 2 Maccabees 2:7 1 Timothy 1 Timothy 1:17 Tobit 13:7, 11 1 Timothy 2:2 2 Maccabees 3:11 1 Timothy 2:2 Baruch 1:11s 1 Timothy 6:15 Sirach 46:5 1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 12:15 1 Timothy 6:15 2 Maccabees 13:4 2 Timothy 2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 17:26 2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 23:10v1 2 Timothy 2:19 Sirach 35:3 2 Timothy 4:8 Wisdom 5:16 2 Timothy 4:17 1 Maccabees 2:60 Titus Titus 2:11 2 Maccabees 3:30 Titus 3:4 Wisdom 1:6 Hebrews Hebrews 1:3 Wisdom 7:25s Hebrews 2:5 Sirach 17:17 Hebrews 4.12 Wisdom 18.15s Hebrews 4:12 Wisdom 7:22-30 Hebrews 5:6 1 Maccabees 14:41 Hebrews 7:22 Sirach 29:14ss Hebrews 11:5 Sirach 44:16 Hebrews 11:5 Wisdom 4:10 Hebrews 11:6 Wisdom 10:17 Hebrews 11.10 Wisdom 13.1 Hebrews 11:10 2 Maccabees 4:1 Hebrews 11:17 1 Maccabees 2:52 Hebrews 11:17 Sirach 44:20 Hebrews 11:27 Sirach 2:2 Hebrews 11:28 Wisdom 18:25 Hebrews 11:35 2 Maccabees 6:18-7:42 Hebrews 12:4 2 Maccabees 13:14 Hebrews 12:9 2 Maccabees 3:24 Hebrews 12:12 Sirach 25:23 Hebrews 12:17 Wisdom 12:10 Hebrews 12:21 1 Maccabees 13:2 Hebrews 13:7 Sirach 33:19 Hebrews 13:7 Wisdom 2:17 James James 1:1 2 Maccabees 1:27 James 1:13 Sirach 15:11-20 James 1:19 Sirach 5:11 James 1:2 Sirach 2:1 James 1:2 Wisdom 3:4s James 1:21 Sirach 3:17 James 2:13 Tobit 4:10 James 2:23 Wisdom 7:27 James 3:2 Sirach 14:1 James 3:6 Sirach 5:13 James 3:9 Sirach 23:1, 4 James 3:10 Sirach 5:13 James 3:10 Sirach 28:12 James 3:13 Sirach 3:17 James 4:2 1 Maccabees 8:16 James 4:11 Wisdom 1:11 James 5:3 Judith 16:17 James 5:3 Sirach 29:10 James 5:4 Tobit 4:14 James 5:6 Wisdom 2:10 James 5:6 Wisdom 2:12 James 5:6 Wisdom 2:19 1 Peter 1 Peter 1:3 Sirach 16:12 1 Peter 1:7 Sirach 2:5 1 Peter 2:25 Wisdom 1:6 1 Peter 4:19 2 Maccabees 1:24 etc. 1 Peter 5:7 Wisdom 12:13 2 Peter 2 Peter 2:2 Wisdom 5:6 2 Peter 2:7 Wisdom 10:6 2 Peter 3:9 Sirach 35:19 2 Peter 3:18 Sirach 18:10 1 John 1 John 5:21 Baruch 5:72 Jude Jude 13 Wisdom 14:1 Revelation Revelation 1:18 Sirach 18:1 Revelation 2:10 2 Maccabees 13:14 Revelation 2:12 Wisdom 18:16 [15] Revelation 2:17 2 Maccabees 2:4-8 Revelation 4:11 Sirach 18:1 Revelation 4:11 Wisdom 1:14 Revelation 5:7 Sirach 1:8 Revelation 7:9 2 Maccabees 10:7 Revelation 8:1 Wisdom 18:14 Revelation 8:2 Tobit 12:15 Revelation 8:3 Tobit 12:12 Revelation 8:7 Sirach 39:29 Revelation 8:7 Wisdom 16:22 Revelation 9:3 Wisdom 16:9 Revelation 9:4 Sirach 44:18 etc. Revelation 11:19 2 Maccabees 2:4-8 Revelation 17:14 2 Maccabees 13:4 Revelation 18:2 Baruch 4:35 Revelation 19:1 Tobit 13:18 Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 3:25 Revelation 19:11 2 Maccabees 11:8 Revelation 19:16 2 Maccabees 13:4 Revelation 20:12s Sirach 16:12 Revelation 21:19s Tobit 13:17 I did a quick count and know that there are about 325 references listed there... 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Guest racer Posted July 22, 2002 Share Posted July 22, 2002 astralis, No, the Septuagint added the deuterocanons. The Reformation did remove those texts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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