When Israel Became a nation again...

[Guest shadow2b]

- If you read Zechariah 14, you will see that those currently in the land will not remain there and the ones that ARE there are destroyed by all the nations armies. Then will Christ come WITH ALL HIS SAINTS and destroy the nations.

-ZECH.14:vss.1.Thru.21--------

-Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of

-thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be

-taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall

-go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the

-city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he

-fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of

-Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall

-cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall

-be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north,

-and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains;

-for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye

-fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the

-LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass

-in that day, [that] the light shall not be clear, [nor] dark: But it shall be one day

-which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass,

-[that] at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, [that] living

-waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half

-of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD

-shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his

-name one. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of

-Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's

-gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and [from] the tower of

-Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. And [men] shall dwell in it, and there shall

-be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. And this

-shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought

-against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their

-feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall

-consume away in their mouth. And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] a great

-tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on

-the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his

-neighbour. And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of

-all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and

-apparel, in great abundance. And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule,

-of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as

-this plague. And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the

-nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to

-worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it

-shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto

-Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no

-rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain];

-there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come

-not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt,

-and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of

-tabernacles. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS

-UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before

-the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the

-LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and

-seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house

-of the LORD of hosts. 

-uhhhhh??Hey DAD--WeLLL, NOT ALL are destroyed ,it's quite obvious "SOME" survive & remain to FIGHT against ISRAEL'S Enemies The NUCLEAR War here is rather obvious as NUKES are the "PLAGUE"that flesh melts from the bones "While men are standing & their eyes are consumed or melt"--This can ONLY be a Nuclear

war & I am sure the LORD does Not need to throw nuclear missiles around to destroy HIS Enemies--Just a "WORD"from HIS mouth would totally consume & cause man & beast to simply {NO-LONGER-EXIST-}-Be Blasted into Nothingness with just "ONE-SIMPLE-WORD"From GOD would extinguish HIS emenies totally & completely--{IMHO} of course-----

-PLUS--DAD The book of Daniel has to be considered where all prophecies about "The Day of the LORD"-&-"The Great Tribulation"-are studied--But SO Many do NOT consider the fact that "THE-GREAT-TRIBULATION"IS THE WRATH OF THE DEVIL POURED OUT AGAINST THE CHURCH--THE BRIDE---THE SAINTS---Any REAL-Bible student Truly wanting to understand the "END-TIMES" will have to realize that there is ONLY ONE-SECOND-COMING-OF-THE-LORD----NOT One where HE comes "SECRETLY & HIS Feet Do NOT Touch the "Mount-of-Olives" & THIS then is THE-RAPTURE-OF-THE-CHURCH"& They ALL Go back into heaven with JESUS for seven years while all "The Tribulation saints are purified--tried--tested-"--

MY Question is always "Since only the Saints-that GO-THRU--The Tribulation & are tried--tested--purified- & these Saints Make their ROBES White in the BLOOD of the LAMB & Only "These"Saints Rule & Reign with JESUS for 1,000 years--Then

-{What are those Raptured saints--who have NOT washed their Robes in the BLOOD of the LAMB & have NOT made their Robes white--What are They gonna be doing for the 1,000 years??---They certainly can NOT Rule & Reign since they are not Clothed in White-Robes---{Rev.7.vss.13.Thru.17-}

-REV.7.vss.13.Thru.17-------

-And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are

-arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou

-knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation,

-and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

-Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his

-temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall

-hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor

-any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and

-shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears

-from their eyes. 

-Dan 12:vss.1.Thru.13---------

-And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the

-children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was

-since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people

-shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of

-them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and

-some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as

-the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the

-stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book,

-[even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be

-increased. Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on

-this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the

-river. And [one] said to the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of

-the river, How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders? And I heard the man

-clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his

-right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever

-that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have

-accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be

-finished. And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what [shall

-be] the end of these [things]? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words

-[are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and

-made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked

-shall understand; but the wise shall understand. And from the time [that] the daily

-[sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up,

-[there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed [is] he that

-waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But

-go thou thy way till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the

-end of the days. 

-DAD--Notice that there is a {45-day}Difference here that those that "Waiteth & cometh to are blessed...

--1,335-days

--1290-days-

== 45-days-------

-What goes on for these "45"days & What is the BLESSING-the Tribulation saints Receive After the 45 days have passed??

-I really don't wanna Argue I Am only "Asking-questions" & really want some answers IF there are any----- --Soooo You got enny I-DEE'S-??

- :hug: :hug: :oww: --Whaddayathink??

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Shadow,

Good post. I overstated when I was referring to Israel being destroyed. You observed correctly.

DAD--Notice that there is a {45-day}Difference here that those that "Waiteth & cometh to are blessed...

--1,335-days

--1290-days-

== 45-days-------

-What goes on for these "45"days & What is the BLESSING-the Tribulation saints Receive After the 45 days have passed??

Well, this is a "mystery" because it is the time of the SEVEN THUNDERS and John was told to seal up the vision, HOWEVER, I believe we can determine a couple things about it.

We agree that there are two events precede God's wrath being poured out upon this world, i.e. Babylon. That is the RESURRECTION, -THEN- THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP.

I see the RESURRECTION of the TWO WITNESSES as the "first resurrection" and THEN 45 days later at the sound of the 7th trumpet (the last trump) is the RAPTURE of those mentioned in Rev 11:13 - the remnant of believers WHO MISSED THE FIRST RESURRECTION AND WERE NOT KILLED BY THE BEAST.

Does that explain it?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest shadow2b]

-Good post. I overstated when I was referring to Israel being destroyed. You observed correctly.

-=Wowwwwww--That jes knocks me over--What a great complement--Thank You SIR-DAD-

-Well, this is a "mystery" because it is the time of the SEVEN THUNDERS and John was told to seal up the vision, HOWEVER, I believe we can determine a couple things about it.

-ahhhhhh--YA GOT ME DAD- :down: :down: :down: how Embarrassking{mo-spinich-please----popeye muze be gittin weak?-in the haid?}I Forgetted about the "Mystery"part in Rev/s.- :oww:

-REV.11:vss.3.Thru.12-------

-And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a

-thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the

-two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 

-And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth

-their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 

-These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:

-and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all

-plagues, as often as they will. And when they shall have finished their testimony,

-the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them,

-and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the

-street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also

-our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and

-nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer

-their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall

-rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because

-these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days

-and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon

-their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great

-voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to

-heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

-two-candlesticks--two-olive trees-----

-Strongs-GR.1417---"Duo"--duo {doo'-o}--a primary numeral----AV - two 122, twain 10, both 2, two and two + 303 1; 135------

-Witnesses---Gr.3144---martus {mar'-toos}--of uncertain affinity--1) a witness

-a) in a legal sense )-{b- an historical sense} 1 one who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest}  c in an ethical sense--1 those who after his example have proved the strength and genuineness of their faith in Christ by undergoing a violent death-------

-DAD----Not Arggy-fying wit ya Bro. just giving "some-more-light"or at least tryin to- :hug: :x: whaddayathink??could this be just the actual--Two-Men"??Two-Witnesses??--CUZ--Really there are Not but TWO Resurrections--Not three--#1--According to 1st..Thess.4.vss.13.Thru.17---The resurrection of the "Dead-in-Christ--& The ones that "remain & are alive--1st.Resurrection--then #2- the Resurrection of the UNjust after the 1,000 year reign of JESUS--& HIS Saints{that have "gone-thru"-{Come-out-of-}-Great-Tribulation-& are clothed in "white-Robes-washed in the BLOOD of the LAMB"------

-So I really don't think that these"TWO"olive-Trees--Two-Candlesticks--Two-Witnesses-can be anything other than the "Two-Witnesses"Two-men"--That "prophesy"for the 1260 days-3-1/2 years"---

-O'Course I haz been proved "Wrong"be'fo--sooooo-I kin live thru it IF yas dooze it ta me Agin??---I---Reckon- :oww: :x: :oww:

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Shadow,

Somewhere in the Eschatology section, I believe, I have written extensively on the Two witnesses. I have identified them as TWO GROUPS - Jews and Gentile believers in Christ. Please note these things:

1) No where in Rev 11 is mentioned ONLY two men. It is ONLY assumed, but if you look at what "witnesses" mean in the scriptures, then it becomes clear my interpretation is a distinct possibility.

2) We know that the saints will overcome by the word of their testimony and the blood of the lamb and they will not love their lives even unto death. Certainly is appropriate for the TWO WITNESSES.

3) As much as the Gospels and the Epistles talk about the "resurrection" it seems only probable that somewhere in Revelation should reveal a clear picture of the "resurrection", which it does in Rev 11.

4) We can see a picture of the two Olive Trees in Romans 11. The Two lampstands of course are the ONLY two "lights" in the world at that time - Born again Jews and Born again Gentiles.

5) In Rev 11:13 we see a remnant who were afrighted and gave glory to God. This "remnant" can be none other than "those who are alive and remain AFTER the First Resurrection - which is of course the resurrection of the Two Witnesses.

So an overall picture of what the saints are doing in the world those last 3 1/2 years PLUS 45 days is shown in Rev 11.

Now, PROVE me wrong.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest shadow2b]

-Rev 11.

Now, PROVE me wrong.-

-

WeLLLL, Bro. I thought the answer in {Strongs}on the "two-olive-Trees--two-Candlesticks--Two-Witnesses was purty clear--IN Rev.11-4 --This is the Definition of those Two-Witnesses--NOT TWO-GROUPS as you suggest--SO IF I am gonna lean towards a "Clear" & Distinct definition of these Two Witnesses{& keep in Context-of the words spoken & Clearly Understood Text that they are refered to } I think WE Both would do better to rely on The Greek Definition & Not Speculation---

-No where in Rev 11 is mentioned ONLY two men. It is ONLY assumed,

-REV.11.vs.10 -

-because these "two prophets" tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 

-REV.11.vs.9------

-shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

-REV.11:vs.7------

-And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of

-the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 

-REV.11.vss.3.Thru.6------

-And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a

-thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the

-two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 

-And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth

-their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 

-These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:

-DAD--I don't know how much more clearly it has to be than GOD-HIMSELF CALLING THEM "MY-TWO-WITNESSES"--But IT IS SUFFICIENT enough for me----I am Not gonna add words like "ONLY" or SUBTRACT WORDS--That will bolster-uP my theory--Because I have NO-other Theory than that which the Bible-itself clearly defines-----At least it "Clearly-defines" it enough for me----

[Guest shadow2b]

-5) In Rev 11:13 we see a remnant who were afrighted and gave glory to God. This "remnant" can be none other than "those who are alive and remain AFTER the First Resurrection - which is of course the resurrection of the Two Witnesses.

-1st.THESS. 4:vss.13.Thru.17--------

-But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are

-asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe

-that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God

-bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which

-are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which

-are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the

-voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall

-rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with

-them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the

-Lord.

-Sooooooooo, DAD Where are those"who are Alive & Remain"AFTER the 1st.Resurrection??Where are "they"Actually??

[Guest shiloh357]

Sweet post man . Do you mind if I save the above post so that when I am witnessing to people that want some proof I can show this to them?

Thanks

In Christ's Love

J.C.

It is not my stuff. I posted the website where I got it. You can use the info if you like, I guess. Just give the credit where it is due. I am glad you like it, J.C.

I enjoy talking about Israel and related issues. PM me some time and we'll talk.

[J.C.]

Thanks man!

In Christ's Love,

J.C.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Shadow,

Here are some verses which I believe all point to the Two witnesses:

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Please examine each of these verses and determine WHO are the ones giving their testimony, WHEN they are giving their testimony, WHAT HAPPENS to them at the end of their testimony?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[simplejeff]

On September 11, 2004 at 1:14 PM, shiloh357 said:

We find Israel returning to the land before recieving the Spirit and before recognizing the Messiah. God says that HE is orchestrating this return to the Land to vindicate His Name.

 

On September 7, 2004 at 5:20 PM, shiloh357 said:

That is part of it. You are on the right track.

 

There is a three fold process here.

 

The return of the Jews to the Land of Israel

 

The restoration of the Land

 

The restoration of the Kingdom to Israel

 

The first two are still in process. Currently there are more Jews outside of the Land than inside it, but God is not finished yet. We have also seen the Land change dramatically since the Jews got back. It is, literally as Scritpture promised, becoming like the Garden of Eden.

 

The third will occur when the Messiah returns to establish His Kingdom in Eretz Yisrael.