Saint Yura Posted September 21, 2002 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 4 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/21/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted September 21, 2002 Colossians 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. In Colossians 2:9 the word for Godhead is theotes which is singular deity. The challenge for Trinitarians: Is the Father deity separate from the Son deity? Also: Is the Holy Spirit deity separate from the Father and Son deity? I shall give a scripture that should open some eyes: Colossians 1:19-20 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross. (NRSV) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xan Posted September 21, 2002 Share Posted September 21, 2002 God is not so seperate that He is three different dieties. That is not what most Trinitarians believe. There is one God, He is echad, which in Hebrew means plural one. There is another word in Hebrew that means singular one, that word is yachid. When Yeshua (Jesus) said, "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one", in Hebrew He said, "Shema Israel, Adonai Eloheynu, Adonai echad" I assume you are a oneness. How do you reconcile Genesis 18? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Yura Posted September 21, 2002 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 4 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/21/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted September 21, 2002 Xan, thank you for your post that DOESN'T answer the questions I asked according to Colossians 2:9. I'll be waiting for the answers consering Colossians 2:9 with the questions. echad means one as yachid means one. I know what the Sh'ma means, and there is no unity in Sh'ma for another. sh'mA yisrael, yhvh eloheynu, yhvh echaD. Meanings for Shma including: hear, listen, mediate, wake up, accept, pay attention, and understand. Listen Yisrael, YHVH our God, YHVH is one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xan Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Colossians 2:9 "For in Him (Yeshua) all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." I have no problem with that. The Lord dwelt in bodily form. The Word became flesh. I did answer this in my first post when I said, "God is not so seperate that He is three different dieties." You said, "echad means one as yachid means one." Only partially true. Echad is compound oneness, while yachid is singular oneness. My purpose for quoting the Sh'ma was to point out which of the two words for one was used. I answered your post, please return the favor. How do you reconcile Genesis 18? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Yura Posted September 22, 2002 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 4 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/21/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted September 22, 2002 Now are you saying that in Colossians 2:9 that the Son is not The True God, and The Father is The True God who is in the Son? Or are you promoting Modalism? What do you mean reconcile Genesis 18? You'll have to clarify your question. Also, I'd like to see an exmple where yachid is used as singular oneness, otherwise you have no argument. [link removed due to content] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xan Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Now are you saying that in Colossians 2:9 that the Son is not The True God, and The Father is The True God who is in the Son? Where did I say that? I was agreeing with you on the interpretation of the scripture. Since I was agreeing with you and you suspect me of promoting modalism... Genesis 18:1-5. Three men approached Abraham, and he called them Lord. Example of the word yachid in the Torah: Genesis 22:2 "He said, 'Take now your son, your only (yachid) son, whom you love, Isaac, and go down to the land of Moriah..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Yura Posted September 22, 2002 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 4 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/21/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted September 22, 2002 1: And the YHVH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. 2: He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men stood in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the earth, 3: and said, "My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. 4: Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, 5: while I fetch a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on -- since you have come to your servant." So they said, "Do as you have said." He seems to be saying "Lord", not "Lords". Read Colossians 1:15 and 1Jhn 4:12. And we see later on that Lot calls the other two as "Lords" in Gen 19:1-2. You seem to lack the understanding of Sh'ma. Do you know how to read Hebrew? And tell me, how is your example suppose to fit better for Sh'ma? Sh'ma is not saying "only one", it is saying "is one", but how can I blame you for not understanding? Try clicking on the link I presented above and read it. Ask any of the Rabbis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xan Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 You are right, Abraham said "Lord" not "Lords". He called them one. Colossians 1:15 "And He is the image of the invisible God, and the firstborn of all creation." I John 4:12 "No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us." I don't have a problem with either one of these verses. Are you one of those Oneness who believe Trinitarians are polytheists? That we don't believe in the oneness of God? We can go round and round on the Shema. You say I don't understand it, when I say I do understand it. My point is to point out the differences in the word echad. Another place where the word echad is used is in Genesis 2:24: "For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one (echad) flesh." You asked if I know how to read Hebrew. I can read Hebrew with vowel points, but I am limited in being able to translate Hebrew into English. In other words, I can read, but most of the time I do not understand. You mentioned the rabbis. Are these the same ones who do not recognize their own Messiah? I ask because my rabbi knows his Messiah and believes in the compound unity of God, and we say the Sh'ma every shabbat. Read Genesis 1:26 I know we haven't gotten to this, yet. But Oneness believe we should not be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; I don't know if you believe the same, but Matt. 28:19 says otherwise, and confirms the Trinity. You have probably been waiting for me to post I John 5:6-8, so here it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xan Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Where are the other Trinitarians on this MB? I am rarely on here during the week. I hope one of you can take my place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted September 23, 2002 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 123 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/07/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted September 23, 2002 Where are the other Trinitarians on this MB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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