Worthy Worry!

[oak]

I thank and agree with what most people on the post have written. However, I do feel the debates are open to any or many views; I don’t want to come off as some kind of Grand Inquisitor, and repress or disregard anyone. I don’t want people to go to hell. But I am concerned that some Christians are not respectful of the Bible. And treat it like a science or history book. Know you are dealing with God. Some scripture to ponder:

Old Testament

“…Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God (it contained the two stone tablets containing the commandments) and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God struck him down there because of his error and died… Sam 6:6-7.

New Testament

Now the Pharisees were the priests responsible for teaching scripture.

"They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch." Matt 15:14

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in." Matt 23:13

Now the Pharisees were the guardians of scripture at the time of Christ.

Now there is much more I can cite. Therefore I feel Christ keeps attention to how use the Word.

We’re using Sacred text. The point I keep mentioning is now I’m seeing less or no reverence for the Bible from Christians.

Oak

[methinkshe]

I have found the following linked article very helpful. I think it addresses some of your concerns, Oak. I have quoted the conclusion of the article but it is well worth reading the whole. Throughout my Christian life there has been an ever-present temptation to slip back into legalism and book-religion. Articles like these help to remind me that we worship the LIVING Word - Jesus, and that it is Jesus, through His Spirit, who saves, not the written word. It is the living Jesus who is expressed in the life of a Christian, not the dead letter of the Law. It is quite a challenging article, as the author admits in the introductory paragraphs, but the Holy Spirit used it to convict me of an unhealthy tendency to replace the Living Word with the written word, for which I am truly thankful.

http://www.christinyou.net/pages/Xnotbrel.html

Christianity is NOT a Book-religion

Though often perceived as the "religion of the Book," Christianity is only rightly understood as an ontological relationship with the Person of Jesus Christ who is the Word of God.

(Concluding paragraphs.)

If anyone should choose to refer to the Bible, the collected Scriptures, as the "Word of God," it should be remembered that such a designation can only be made in a secondary sense. The primary and absolute sense of the "Word of God" is in the expression of God in His Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus is the eternal Word of God expressed in creation, expressed in redemption, expressed in sanctification, expressed in glorification.

The Bible is not the "Word of God" in an absolute sense. It is a book comprised of a compilation of "words" about the Word of God, Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself said, "The Scriptures bear witness of Me" (John 5:39). The written words point to the Living Word, Jesus Christ. In fact, the Bible does not even "contain" the Word of God, for such would be sacramentalism. The Living Word of God, Jesus Christ, cannot be imprisoned in a book. He must be free to express Himself as God in man, and that unto the functionally free humanity through which God intends to glorify Himself.

As Jesus thus expresses Himself in us, by His Spirit, He will bear inner testimony in our spirit, and unto our minds, of the value of the Book, the Bible, in our lives. Apart from the illumination and enlightenment, the personal revelation of the Spirit of Christ, the spiritual insights, the living characterization factors, that are to be gained from the Biblical literature will never be appreciated anyway.

The Spirit of God uses the Scripture preserved for us by God. The Living Word of God uses the written words of God. Jesus Christ uses the Bible to reveal how it is that He wants to function in us to reveal God in man. This is why we noted at the outset that the Bible is in one sense like every other book in the world: written words, literature, a bound-book. But in another sense the Bible is unlike every other book in the world. The Living Word, Jesus, uses this book to reveal how it is He has functioned and continues to function as God in man.

The "natural man" does not understand spiritual things" (I Corinthians 2:14) no matter how many times he might attempt to read the words of the Bible. Jesus told His disciples, "when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth.." (John 16:13). The Spirit of Christ, Who is Truth (John 14:6), may utilize the Bible to reveal and disclose Himself, but He does not require the written book in order to do so. The Teacher is not tied to the text! The Spirit is not bound in the Bible! Christ is not chained or contained in the words of a book.

Apart from the Living Word, Jesus Christ, functioning spiritually in our lives, the book is mere "letter" (legalistic biblicism), and there is no Spirit-action, no genuine divine functioning. To the Corinthians Paul wrote, "God... made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (II Corinthians 3:6,7). Mere book-religion kills, but Spirit-revelation gives life. Mere comprehension of Bible-words kills, but the Spirit of Christ, the Living Word of God, gives life. To the Romans Paul wrote, "we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter" (Romans 7:6). Christians are not "bound" to the "letter" of book-religion. We live and serve in the newness of the Spirit of Christ activating our lives from within.

Without the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ reading the Bible will be like reading someone else's mail. You cannot understand it because it was not intended for you. Oh, you may be able to chart the history. You may be able to discuss the theology. You might even be able to produce detailed speculations about the future, but you will not be able to receive the living, spiritual implications of the life of Jesus Christ. This is why Martin Luther indicated that if your spiritual condition is that of the unregenerate, being devoid of the Spirit, you are better off reading some other book! That is also why it is said that "the Bible is the only book in the world that requires knowing the Author to understand the book." One must "know" and have a personal relationship with the Living Word expression of God in Jesus Christ in order to spiritually understand the written word expression of God in the Bible.

As Christians today, coming as many of us do out of a Protestant tradition of biblicism, it is important that we keep our perspective properly focused on the Person of Jesus Christ, not just on Bible-learning. Jesus Christ is the Truth, not mere propositional truths contained in ever-evolving semantics.

Our faith is not in the Bible. Our hope is not in the Bible. Our love is not love for the Bible. Our faith, hope and love are in Jesus Christ.

Our base of authority is not in the Bible, as has often been projected by popular Protestantism, the "religion of the Book." Our base of authority is in Jesus Christ, who said, "All authority is given to Me, in heaven and upon earth" (Matthew 28:18).

Our security is not in the Bible. Many seem to base their security on Bible promises and propositions, on Bible formulas, procedures and techniques. Our security is founded on a vital, dynamic on-going personal relationship with the Living Lord Jesus Christ. I am assured and secure in the reality that God is expressive in my life by Jesus Christ. I know it, not because the Bible makes a statement ("the Bible tells me so") or gives me a procedure. I know it (Him) because the eternal life and eternal expression of Jesus Christ is functioning in my life. This is not mere experiential existentialism. Somewhere between the extremes of objective biblicism and subjective existentialism is the reality of the functional Life of Jesus Christ in man.

As Christians we want to know Jesus as the Word of God, the expression of God in man, rather than just words from a book. We want to experience the Person of Jesus, not just examine the photograph, the picture, that represents the reality. We want to be sheep who hear His voice, the voice of the Shepherd, not just sheep who "feed" on the fodder of theological canned goods, or Scriptural scrapings.

The Life of Jesus Christ who is the Living expression of God, the Living Word, is to be expressed in gospel proclamation that shares the "word of truth," the "word of life," the "word of salvation." II Timothy 3:16 indicates that "all scripture/writings are profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be adequately equipped for every good work" (which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them - Ephesians 2:10). It is true that the Bible is to be taught, and that God has gifted some as teachers (Ephesians 4:11; I Corinthians 12:28; Romans 12:7). But the process of Biblical instruction (teaching), and the product of the instruction (Bible-knowledge) must not become ends in themselves. It appears to me that there has been the perpetuation of a poisonous and counter-productive pedagogy in evangelical ecclesiasticism, a "teaching model" that perpetuates book-religion, Bible knowledge, and getting "fed" through Scripture instruction. This creates dysfunctional Christianity, mere Christian-religion, which does not issue forth in the outworking expression of Christ's life.

Christianity is not a book-religion! Christianity is Christ functioning as the expressive Word of God in man.

by James A. Fowler

[Smalcald]

I liked much of that article.

However, I was converted by that book, by randomly picking up a Gidions bible handed to me on campus and reading the Word of God, so it is to me the living Word of God contained in those words, not the ink or the physical book. But the words themselves which are Life. For me reading the Gospel contained in the bible was critical for me returning to Christ.

[oak]

Thank you, methinkshe and Smalcald for your respective posts.

Methinkshe, I feel the article you brought up can be a thread on its own. Certainly, I never intended to say The Bible supersedes Christ. I’m in search of the Holy Spirit to guide me and find people in the forum and other places that are alive in the Spirit. However as the case with Church and Bible they have a part to play in terms of guiding us. And guides are not to be treated disrespectfully. If you are approached by a person interested in Christianity how do begin to guide him and what do you refer him to? The state of your heart and conscience and intent are very important in terms of dealing with anything that gives us an understanding and if rightly kept will point to Christ and keeping faith in Him.

Smalcald, you are a fighter who has found what the good fight is and I believe and pray that you will be a champion in Christ in the 12th round. You are not a lukewarm person and may that serve you well in this life and the one to come.

Oak

[Guest]

Now there is much more I can cite. Therefore I feel Christ keeps attention to how use the Word.

We’re using Sacred text. The point I keep mentioning is now I’m seeing less or no reverence for the Bible from Christians.

Reverence

Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Isaiah 6:5

And Joy Unspeakable

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

Who Am I To Hold Such Treasure

I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalms 138:2

And What Can I Give In Return For This Most Holy Gift

What shall I render unto the LORD for all his benefits toward me?

I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD. Psalms 116:12-13

____________

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[oak]

The Life of Jesus Christ who is the Living expression of God, the Living Word, is to be expressed in gospel proclamation that shares the "word of truth," the "word of life," the "word of salvation." II Timothy 3:16 indicates that "all scripture/writings are profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be adequately equipped for every good work" (which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them - Ephesians 2:10). It is true that the Bible is to be taught, and that God has gifted some as teachers (Ephesians 4:11; I Corinthians 12:28; Romans 12:7). But the process of Biblical instruction (teaching), and the product of the instruction (Bible-knowledge) must not become ends in themselves. It appears to me that there has been the perpetuation of a poisonous and counter-productive pedagogy in evangelical ecclesiasticism, a "teaching model" that perpetuates book-religion, Bible knowledge, and getting "fed" through Scripture instruction. This creates dysfunctional Christianity, mere Christian-religion, which does not issue forth in the outworking expression of Christ's life. Christianity is not a book-religion! Christianity is Christ functioning as the expressive Word of God in man.

It’s ironic that from a man that wants to put the Bible in as secondary source, he uses it as his main source to prove his point. That makes no sense to me. I understand his point that the Bible should not take precedents over Christ Himself but when does it do that? Where do we find this information? In the Bible itself. The Epistles argue that the Jews tried to get saved by law and didn’t lean on of faith. “For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.” Yes the Bible itself shpw's us the misuse of scriptures within the Bible. Pretty amazing.

What is the Bible? “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace and are turning to a different gospel – not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.” Gal 1:6-7

I am personally persuaded that if you truly seek the promise, The Holy Spirit will prompt you or deter you, according to God’s will. A personal example comes to mind. I was in a group setting where some people were not liked and even made fun of. So, I wanted to help. And I made friends with them, to show the cruelty of others. I did not pray to God, I did not seek His council because I thought it was obvious. My attempt to do good (perhaps by boasting myself) turned into a disaster. Not because I was doing good but because my faith was weak. It was a very unpleasant time, here I was doing, good yet rebuked by God. I came to the task unprepared and was paid my just reward. I was humbled then and now know that pride was part of my actions. The Bible exhorts and calls us to action. It’s a journey and it doesn’t always result in victory. Those who use it in an inappropriate way – if they truly seek Christ - will be notified of it – I truly believe that. Thank you FresnoJoe.

PS Methinkshe, I read the whole article but chose to just quote the last paragraph.

[methinkshe]

The Life of Jesus Christ who is the Living expression of God, the Living Word, is to be expressed in gospel proclamation that shares the "word of truth," the "word of life," the "word of salvation." II Timothy 3:16 indicates that "all scripture/writings are profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be adequately equipped for every good work" (which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them - Ephesians 2:10). It is true that the Bible is to be taught, and that God has gifted some as teachers (Ephesians 4:11; I Corinthians 12:28; Romans 12:7). But the process of Biblical instruction (teaching), and the product of the instruction (Bible-knowledge) must not become ends in themselves. It appears to me that there has been the perpetuation of a poisonous and counter-productive pedagogy in evangelical ecclesiasticism, a "teaching model" that perpetuates book-religion, Bible knowledge, and getting "fed" through Scripture instruction. This creates dysfunctional Christianity, mere Christian-religion, which does not issue forth in the outworking expression of Christ's life. Christianity is not a book-religion! Christianity is Christ functioning as the expressive Word of God in man.

It’s ironic that from a man that wants to put the Bible in as secondary source, he uses it as his main source to prove his point. That makes no sense to me. I understand his point that the Bible should not take precedents over Christ Himself but when does it do that? Where do we find this information? In the Bible itself. The Epistles argue that the Jews tried to get saved by law and didn’t lean on of faith. “For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.” Yes the Bible itself shpw's us the misuse of scriptures within the Bible. Pretty amazing.

What is the Bible? “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace and are turning to a different gospel – not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.” Gal 1:6-7

I am personally persuaded that if you truly seek the promise, The Holy Spirit will prompt you or deter you, according to God’s will. A personal example comes to mind. I was in a group setting where some people were not liked and even made fun of. So, I wanted to help. And I made friends with them, to show the cruelty of others. I did not pray to God, I did not seek His council because I thought it was obvious. My attempt to do good (perhaps by boasting myself) turned into a disaster. Not because I was doing good but because my faith was weak. It was a very unpleasant time, here I was doing, good yet rebuked by God. I came to the task unprepared and was paid my just reward. I was humbled then and now know that pride was part of my actions. The Bible exhorts and calls us to action. It’s a journey and it doesn’t always result in victory. Those who use it in an inappropriate way – if they truly seek Christ - will be notified of it – I truly believe that. Thank you FresnoJoe.

PS Methinkshe, I read the whole article but chose to just quote the last paragraph.

Must it not always be the case that writings ABOUT a person are secondary to the person himself?

The author is not trying to downgrade the Bible so much as promote the living reality and person of the resurrected Jesus Christ, the revelation of whom is the sole purpose of the Bible. As the author says in another part of the article:

"What then is the purpose of the Bible? The purpose of the Bible is to bear witness to Jesus Christ, who is the living expression of God, the Word of God. Jesus told the Jews,

"...you do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life." (John 5:38-40)

The Scriptures bear witness of Jesus. A good witness in a judicial setting does not focus attention on himself, but to the issue at hand. The Biblical writings do not point to themselves, but to Jesus Christ. The written record of God's expression and revelation of Himself in Jesus Christ is designed to direct a person to faith in Jesus Christ, to receptivity of the redemptive and functionally living activity of Jesus Christ.

The apostle John explains the purpose of his writing the gospel narrative attributed to him, "these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31). The purpose of the Scriptures is to lead one to receive the life that is in Christ Jesus.

The apostle Paul reminds Timothy of the value of the written record, urging him to "continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them; and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus" (II Timothy 3:14,15). The translation reads "sacred writings," but there is no intrinsic sacredness or holiness in the writings themselves, as has been previously noted. Paul was simply referring to the "God-given writings." The purpose of the writings is that they are "able to give...wisdom..." The God-given writings serve as a vehicle, an instrument, that the Spirit of God uses to impart the spiritual wisdom and discernment necessary to understand spiritual things in order that one might see their need for functionally restorative salvation, which comes only by the receptivity of the activity of the Savior, Jesus Christ. The Scriptures serve an instrumental means. "

I know only too well from my own experience and that of others that without the quickening life of the Lord Jesus in a believer through His Holy Spirit, the Bible is just dead words on a page. It makes for dreary reading. But when the Holy Spirit quickens the words to the Believer they become more precious than gold. On a daily basis the Holy Spirit quickens words and verses and chapters so that they become light to my soul. But this is not the case for unbelievers. Without the life-giving Spirit they remain just words on a page.

The Scriptures in and of themselves cannot give eternal life, they can only point to, and bear witness of, the One who can - Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ IS the gospel, the good news, the life, the truth, the way. Words ABOUT Jesus Christ can only point to this truth, they cannot BE Jesus. It is not the Bible that comes to live with the believer, it is Jesus Himself. God's gift to humanity, by which humanity may be restored to God's created purpose, is Himself.

Blessings in Jesus.