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Any appontment to office in the church of Jesus is an appointment to servanthood. The higher the office, the greater service is demanded. We can never be greater than our Master, Jesus Christ. Therefore, our highest service is "washing one another's feet" as Jesus did for us. How able are you to humble yourself? But know, however much you humble yourself you will still never match the humility of Jesus who laid aside His glory to become a mewling infant and grow up as a man. Such heavenly glory and joy set aside for the greater glory of redeeming His elect! We could never come close to such humility. Nevertheless, it is to that kind of servant-humility that we are called. God bless you, brother, and may the Lord enable you to serve in your appointment with even the tiniest degree of the humility and servant-nature of our Lord Jesus.

I haven't posted on Worthy for a good while but I really wanted to share a recent experience in the hope that it will encourage one of Jesus' 'little flock' who may be wrestling with a similar challenge. I recently was given the opportunity to help someone quite close to me (unsaved - as yet!) by purchasing a car for them (at quite considerable personal cost) on the basis of an anticipated insurance claim with which they hoped to repay my outlay. Four years ago, this woman wrote off a car - drink driving - and ever since has been named by her sin. She is labelled an alcoholic. The Lord had been impressing on me the destructiveness of naming a person by their besetting sin - it leaves that person in a place of utter hopelessness. How hurtful and cruel it is to be labelled by one's besetting sin - it's as though one's identity and destiny has been forever changed so that one is so identified with one's sin as to be known by the sin instead of one's name, never mind any decent character trait. Then this opportunity arose for me to buy a car on her behalf while she waited for settlement of her insurance claim. The means by which the car came to my notice can only be described as "providential", if one is a Christian, although others might talk of coincidence. It is a beautiful car - not any old banger - a really, lovely car. Ten years old but in perfect condition. She loved it and instinctively felt that it was "too good for her" and that she "didn't deserve it" and didn't think it could or should be hers, even though it lit a small candle of hope in her heart that her life could change. I made clear to her that it was all of the Lord's doing, none of mine. It was such a good buy that I could probably have put it back up for sale and realised a 20% profit within days. In any event, I bought the car with the intention of passing it on to her at cost price as soon as she received her insurance payout. But then I started to have doubts as to whether I was doing the right thing. I took counsel from Christians and also non-Christian relatives and there was a very distinct difference in the advice they offered. The non-Christians advocated not only that I would be foolish not to realise a 20% profit by reselling the car, but even more foolish to pass it on to a labelled alcoholic, even though I explained that my intent was to give hope where hope had been lost. I had believed from the beginning that I was merely the Lord's instrument in delivering to her an outrageously extravagant, providential gift from the Lord as a very tangible demonstration of His love for her. The Christians I spoke to understood and agreed. In contrast, the non-Christians advised that to give a labelled alcoholic access to such a lovely vehicle would be sheer stupidity on my part. Not only was she undeserving, she would inevitably wreck it. The label had well and truly stuck - she was a hopeless case, unworthy of anything lovely. Hopeless, helpless and unhelpable. Unredeemable, in a word. I pondered and prayed over this conflicting advice for several days and finally, when I resolved to make the car available to her, which was my reason for buying the car in the first instance, but also knowing that I would take a load of flack from the non-Christians who had offered their advice, I was filled with an explosion of overwhelming love that I hadn't experienced in such fullness since my conversion 40 years ago. At that time, I had received such a fullness of love that it was as though I was seeing the world in colour instead of black and white; I had felt this overwhelming love for everyone - every person on the street seemed to be of infinite worth and deserving of utmost compassion and love. But over the years the intensity had faded. But I got a taste of it again when I resolved to "show love to the unlovely", and act against worldly wisdom. I wanted to record the experience so I wrote the following verses so I wouldn't forget the blessing I experienced when I chose to "love the unlovely" as God has loved me. I hope it may be of encouragement to someone here. Blessings to all my dear brothers and sisters in Jesus, where ever you are in the world. Musings on I John 4:19 and Matthew 5:44 We love because he first loved us. Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; How can I know that I love You, Lord, When my heart is so dark and uncouth? How can I ever be reassured That I love you in spirit and truth? How can I know that the worship I bring, Which boasts of my love for you, Is not empty words, a mere paean I sing To impress the man in the pew? I’ll know I love you when I love the unloved With the undeserved love you’ve shown me. When I love my enemy, not just my beloved, And sacrifice self on The Tree. How bless-ed it is to show your grace, To the drunkard, the liar, those known By their sin, condemned and displaced, Sinners chosen in Christ for His own. Fill me with love for others, dear Lord, For in loving the unlovely I’ll know The Spirit’s love has been shed abroad In my heart, and it’s real not a show. Then I will love with a love not my own, A love that you first gave me; The Spirit’s love come down from your throne, As vast as eternity. And I shall glory in your love, not mine, A love unbounded and free, A supernatural love divine, Established in Trinity.

God provides 100% . He chooses, he draws, he calls, he saves, he sanctifies and gives eternal life. None of me, ALL of Him. THIS is the work that the Father requires - to believe on the one who is sent - Jesus. If you think you have anything whatsoever to do with your salvation - either initialising, choosing, responding, keeping - then you have taken from Jesus' and His glory and credited yourself. ALL of Him and NONE of me. ALL the glory belongs to Jesus. You/i can do NOTHING except RECEIVE God's wonderful provision in Jesus.

....the Bible! I hope this analogy doesn't offend anyone. It just came to me that the whole Bible is like Jesus' internet dating resume: it tells about who He is, His character (love, righteousness, truth, life etc) His position (Creator, King of Kings etc) His wealth (the world and all that is in it belongs to Him) His works (inherently good because He IS good) and then invites us to become betrothed to Him and finally to marry Him (I speak in spiritual terms, of course!) It is a an invitation to get to know Him personally, to fall in love with HIm, become betrothed to Him through the earnest/deposit of His Spirit, and then finally to become united in marriage - to be fully one with Him! Wow! What a resume! What a marriage proposal is that! But reading a dating resume can only tell one about the proposer, the author. Only through accepting the invitation and saying "yes" to getting to know the proposer personally can one fall in love and then gladly accept the marriage proposal and become betrothed. Many, many people will read the resume and come to know a certain amount about Jesus, but not all will accept the invitation to know Him personally by His Spirit. This life, this time of our betrothal to Jesus, is the time we are allotted to get to know our intended, our bridegroom-to-be, through His Spirit in us. And then will come that glorious day of consummation when Jesus will marry His betrothed, His bride! And truly we shall live happily ever after!

Dire - in a word! Not that God cannot work all things for good, for the called, and according to His purpose - if we confess (i.e. agree with God) regarding the inadvisability of marrying an unbeliever against His express advice, but the consquences still have to be borne, albeit with God's strength and help. Consider the problems that will arise when the believing partner wishes to bring up any children in the knowledge of God, and the unbelieving partner objects. When light and darkness attempt to co-exist, all one ends up with is a grey fog. And since that is an entirely unsatisfactory way to exist, separation is usually the result - whether it be in actuality (divorce) or apartness within the marriage. Having been there, done it, and lived with the consequences, I would not recommend it to anyone starting out in marriage. It is so second best as to be undeserving of a second thought.

............prEpositional knowledge of Jesus, not just prOpositional knowledge. Even Satan has propositional knowledge of God. The regenerate have (or maybe need) prEpositional knowledge of God. Christ in me, by me, for me, through me, to me, over me, under me, within me, beside me, above me, etc., etc. Prepositional knowledge is relational knowledge. Propositional knowledge is merely declarative. The Believer is immersed into (baptised into) the eternal love relationship of the triune Godhead. Through the Holy Spirit (by Jesus, the Son) we are baptised into the triune Father God - He in us and we in Him. Oh glory! Lord, give me the faith and grace to LIVE the prEpositional, relational truth of Christ in me and me in Christ, not merely acknowledge the prOpositional truth.

Thank you for your response. T However, your answer does not sit well with my spirit. In truth, I would prefer to remain in ignorance and trust God with my ignorance than to adopt the resolution that you propose.

Nice post - thanks. Building on that, could it then be said as follows? Since everything that God wills/plans/purposes, IS (because that is a characterisitic of omnipotence) then it must be that what IS in the spiritual unfolds in the natural, over time. Moreover, God must live in an eternal present if He is omnipotent because otherwise He would be dependent on events unfolding before executing His next move, so to speak, and dependency does not equate to omnipotence. Jesus said, referring to His second coming in Matthew 24: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." And that must require foreknowledge of how every person that has ever lived will act - past, present and future. A slight digression: having just quoted the above verse, I am puzzled as to why the Father has knowledge that the Son does not. Is Jesus saying that in His humanity He does not have this knowledge? Because if the Son does not have this knowledge in His divinity, would that not make the Son lesser than the Father? Some help would be appreciated on this point.

I suppose it is possible, although I'm wary of the idea, for the simple reason that there no indication in scripture that God did use unformed matter that had been available prior to the beginning of Genesis. Ex-nihilo is virtually impossible to prove, since one can't prove a nothing. Proving a nothing proves nothing. Even if scripture said that God created the universe out of nothing, an objector might still question what is meant by nothing. Nothing could refer to chaos, a singularity, some sort of proto-matter or anything really. However I do think that when scripture is silent on something it's silent for a reason. I also think that if one cannot find an answer in scripture and logic has reached its limits, then looking at what geniune Christians throughout the ages believed, isn't a bad approach. So for that reason I think ex-nihilo is probably right even though your theory isn't unscriptural or logically incoherent. So, in short, while I don't see anything wrong with it, I also don't see a reason to believe it. If that makes sense? I, believe that God is omnipresent, and so by definition, is everywhere. I know there are some who believe that hell is hell because God isn't there, but I don't believe such a view is entirely scriptural. The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:10-11) This verse seems to suggest that the torments of hell are in presence of God. If hell and outer darkness are different then I think the same would apply to outer darkness. I believe hell/outer darkness, isn't the geographical absence of God, but the perceived absence of God. In other words, when God withdraws from the lost, He doesn't withdraw physically. So while I understand what you mean, by God being able to bring chaos into order, I think God is able to do that anyway through Christ. But one must also consider God's justice. Sometimes God destroys and wreaks chaos, as a judgement. I believe this is the case for lucifer and his fallen. May I ask, are you a universalist? Thanks for your response, Luftwaffle. I agree with what you say. As for, am I a universalist, I'm not sure because I'm very wary of "isms" and "ists" so wouldn't know into which category I might fall. I believe that Jesus in His death and resurrection paid the full penalty for sin and that the freedom (release from Satan's bondage which includes justicfication and sanctification) and righteousness before God, that He purchased through that sacrifice, is universal. Therefore sin is no longer a barrier between God and man because Jesus has paid the penalty for sin and God's holiness is judicially satisfied. But that doesn't mean that all men everywhere will avail themselves of that freedom in Christ to live as God intended, through the restoration of His Spirit in man via regeneration, which is accessible only by faith. As for me, I only know that the resurrected, living Lord Jesus has come to abide in me and that I have His life in me.

Satan and sin are not synonomous. God and good are not synonomous. God does not sin because it is not in his nature to sin. God cannot even look upon sin (Hab. 1:13). Sin is what separates man from God. Sin is what brings man under a sentence of death. Jesus did not experience personal sinfulness. Jesus did not experience what it means to be a sinner. The sins He bore were not His own. The Bible puts it this way: "All we like sheep have gone astray; but God hath laid upon Him the iniquity of us all." Is. 53:6. What is important to note is that the word “laid” has a more forceful sense in the Hebrew than it does in English. From the Hebrew we find that God caused the sin of mankind to come upon Jesus heavily with great force. I would remind you of v. 5, which tells us that Jesus was crushed for our iniquities. The weight of the penalty of sin crushed Him. This points to the intense punishment Jesus was bearing for us on the cross. God the Father hurled all of his wrath and judgment for sin upon Jesus, and Jesus drank every bitter drop of the cup of God’s wrath. “…the iniquity of us all.” God laid upon Jesus the iniquity of us all. We need to be clear as to what this means, as well as what it doesn’t mean. When we say that Jesus bore our sins, we do NOT mean: That He was a sinner; That He suffered pain of conscience; That Jesus was, at any time, personally displeasing to God the Father; That there was any transfer of character or moral qualities. Jesus bore our sins but he did not become a sinner or sinful in and of Himself. Jesus bore our sins without bearing their power or pollution. Jesus, being sinless, had no need for repentance or contrition. Jesus was always, at all times, pleasing to God and remained so, even on the cross. One commentator has written: "He bore the wrath of God, but He bore it representatively. He never was more pleasing to God, He never was more righteous, He never was more acceptable and lovely He never was more intensely and immeasurably fulfilling the will God, than when He cried out, Eli, Eli, lama sabacthani!" (J. W. Alexander, D. D.) When we say that Jesus bore sin, we mean that: Jesus suffered for our sins (Is. 53:4, 5; Rom. 5:6, 8; 1Cor. 15:3; 1Thess. 5:10; 1Pet. 2:21); He bore our sins in the sense that He bore the penalty of sins; Jesus bore our sins in order to remove their penal consequences and secure our salvation. It is important to understand that our sin was imputed to Jesus, just as His righteousness is imputed to us. Jesus bore the penalty for sin, which is death. Jesus has borne everything it takes to send a man to hell. He bore our infirmities, carried our sorrows, He was pierced for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities. Jesus bore everything it takes to send a man to hell and He did it so man would not have to. Thanks for the reply, Shiloh. Re the phrase above that I have bolded. What about 2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

If Satan and sin are synonymous in the same way that God and good are synonymous, (i.e. God IS good, intrinsically and uniquely) it logically follows that Satan IS sin. And God cannot be Satan, thus God cannot sin. But does that mean that God cannot, in Jesus, vicariously have experienced our sin on the cross? Not that He sinned, but that He bore our sins. One can only surmise from the description of Jesus' torment in the Garden of Gethsemane, and His cry from the cross: my God, my God, why hast thous forsaken me? that He must have experienced something terrible beyond measure: was He not experiencing (or bearing) the sin of the whole world?

So where does the following fit in? "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" Surely this is foreknowledge. And these: Romans 8:28 - 30 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Psalm 147:5 5 Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding is infinite. 1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Isaiah 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. Isaiah 44:7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. Hebrews 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. I have to conclude that God knows the future - intimately, intrinsically, even, not just a rough idea. Regarding free will. I have always believed that only God is autonomous and has free will; i.e. that which He wills He is able to perform. Men are derivative creatures. By birth, a man derives his spiritual nature from Satan. Through re-generation a man is restored to a pre-fall condition of deriving his spiritual nature from God. Humanity has freedom to choose but only as far as his derivative spiritual nature allows. Since the nature of Satan is everything that God is not, then God can know antithetically Satan's will in a person. And since His Spirit is in the regenerate, He knows His own will. Men's choices will be defined by the actuating spirit - either Satan or God. Moreover, because God says: "you did not choose Me but I chose you" and "no man can come to me except the Father draw him" we know that it is God who moves in a man to draw him to respond to God's calling or, conversely, does not. Thus even man's freedom to choose is limited. He doesn't have free will.

Luftwaffle, Thank you so much for the time and effort you have expended in your reply to my questions. I really appreciate it. May I take you up on your offer to "walk down this road with you and see what we can learn."? First I need to complete the picture vis a vis where I am coming from. Only please tell me if I have overstepped the mark and drifted too far from the revealed into the speculative. I want to "draw out" from the whole counsel of Scripture, not "insert" from my human understanding and imagination. Okay, continuing from my first post, here is where I go next......... Would it in any way contravene Scripture to propose a God-created universe of unformed matter that correlates with “outer darkness” that pre-existed the creation of the earth and heaven – that is, its creation from unformed matter into an ordered, life-bearing planet and atmosphere, and the giving of light to other clumps of unformed matter in the universe, thus creating the sun and stars, the whole culminating in the creation of humankind? “Ex nihilo,” if applied strictly to the creation of the earth, might not allow, but “ek Theos” would (at least, I think so) – hence my question in my previous post. One could then consider whether this is evidence that even where there is darkness and chaos and disorder, God can, if He so wills, bring His light and order and life. In a way, it could be seen as an object lesson for Satan and his demonic spirits – God rules even in the outer darkness where they were cast. That there is no place where God cannot, if He so wills, bring His Person and His rule to bear – not even “outer darkness” which, one assumes, having been cast there, Satan took as his dominion. (As an aside, I have always pondered on the verse: For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. I Corinthians 11:10. What have angels to do with the subject? It is obviously an authority matter. Beyond that, I am puzzled. Anyway, it's probably a red herring as far as this discussion is concerned. But it did come to mind, so......) The spiritual battle then begins; who rules even outer darkness – God or Satan? The first move is God’s – He creates the heaven and the earth in this outer darkness, or chaotic universe of unformed matter, that Satan has taken as his dominion, by bringing His presence and order and life to it through creating plants and animals and finally man in His image, a being designed to derive his spiritual nature from his Creator. Satan responds by corrupting Adam who then derives his spiritual nature from Satan. God counter-responds by becoming man in Christ Jesus and, with the potential for spiritual regeneration that this allows humanity, takes the victory! Satan doesn’t give up, though, he continues to corrupt humanity until such times as God calls an end to Satan's deception. Or is this just far too much speculation?

This is interesting..... I think I see where you are coming from. Are you, for instance, suggesting that God's foreknowledge is less "crystal ball knowledge" (to use human terminology) and more "I will bring it to pass" and therefore because what God WILLS must always OCCUR, then he knows what will come to pass because he knows what He wills WILL happen - if you follow me! That is not in any way to detract from the conditions that sometimes accompany God's will in relation to humanity. He has given humanity freedom to choose and does not IMPOSE his will on us. Although I must admit that I get stumped right here because humanity's freedom to choose and God's will seem to be at odds with one another. He WILLS all men to be saved, but we know that because we have freedom of choice not all men will be saved. So in that instance, God does not "bring to pass" His will. Hmmm...... Also, if there is a concept of "it is finished" as Jesus said from the cross, then there cannot be an eternal "now". Perhaps such misunderstanding is what gives us the R.C. Mass - the continual re-offering of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Or have I entirely misunderstood the thrust of your reasoning and am just tying myself up in knots?

Thank you for sharing that, Fez. You are so right when you say: "Jesus put her with me to teach me a servants heart (the hard way)." I know that is true for me, too. Only yesterday I was meditating on the whole concept of the servant heart and servant leadership and how Jesus came to serve humanity. . I wonder whether some of us (me, that is!) are so hard of heart (or hard of hearing!) that we can only learn this lesson the hard way - casting no aspersions on you, of course! It is only in our service to others that the Lord Jesus in us is revealed to them, yet so often I duck the challenge. But when someone near and dear is so in need of help, it simply isn't possible to duck out. I am now praying that the Lord will enable me, through His Spirit, to serve my daughter with joy instead of reluctance. Real joy, too, not just a pious pretence, and that is going to take a transformative work in my heart on the Lord's part - but with God all things are possible and I have faith that He will do that. Already my burden feels lighter. Thank you, dear brother.

Luftwaffle, I have found your answers on this thread, and others relating to science v creation, very helpful to my understanding. Would you mind if I ask some questions? Before I start, I just want to let you know that I believe in a literal six day creation. But I have some imponderables that I'm hoping you might be able to help me with. 1) Genesis 1:1&2 says: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Did the "third heaven" or "the throne room of God" pre-exist the creation of the heavens and the earth of Genesis 1? Is there even such a location and if so does it exist within the universe or is it in a different dimension? In short, where was/is the "dwelling place" of God and his holy angels? 2) Likewise, did "outer darkness," the place reserved for the devil and his demons, pre-exist the creation of the "heaven and the earth?" Is it a physical location or a spiritual dimension? Did God create "outer darkness?" 3) Am I correct in believing that the word translated as "formless and void" is the same word that is translated elsewhere in the Bible as "abyss" and "outer darkness" and that it is synonymous with the word "chaos". 4) If "outer darkness/the abyss/chaos" is part of the physical universe and it pre-existed the creation of "the heaven and the earth" could the earth have been just another lump of rock, so to speak, hurtling around in "outer darkness" until God brought His life and order to it through the creative acts described in Genesis? And that the heaven of Genesis 1:1 refers to earth's atmosphere (not the whole universe) and the sun, moon and stars were, like earth, just more lumps of rock hurtling around in outer darkness until God caused them to be light-bearers to the earth? I suppose what I'm getting at is: could the creation of "heaven and earth" be a secondary creation? i.e. God created the universe (??outer darkness/chaos/unformed matter) first but it is not recorded in Genesis because it has no bearing on mankind and the revelation of God to mankind. 5) Where in the Bible do we find "creation ex nihilo?" Is it assumed? Would not "creation ek Theos" be more accurate? I ask these questions in a spirit of not-knowing and searching for answers. But in no way do I seek to undermine a literal interpretation of the Genesis account, only to understand it better.

Thank you, Oak, for your suggestions - ideas are always so helpful. But most of all, I want to thank you for helping me to make a connection....................... As well as kindly replying to this thread, you also replied to a post of mine on a thread you started - "Worthy Worry." And I've just seen the connection! In my o.p. here I admitted that it was selfishness on my part that made me dread the school holidays. Selfishness because my daughter consumes so much of my time; time that otherwise I would spend reading and studying the Bible or other such things - reading WORTHY posts, for instance - as this is what I most delight to do. On your thread I posted about how we can elevate the Bible to such a position that it replaces the Living Lord Jesus in our lives. And you have made the connection for me by posting here - that is exactly what I have done! I have elevated reading and talking ABOUT Jesus (in the Bible, here, in sermons etc) above LIVING Jesus and allowing Him to reveal Himself to my daughter in and through my ACTIONS. What a nitwit I am! Praise the Lord that he has used your posts to open my eyes. Thank you, dear brother in Christ.

Must it not always be the case that writings ABOUT a person are secondary to the person himself? The author is not trying to downgrade the Bible so much as promote the living reality and person of the resurrected Jesus Christ, the revelation of whom is the sole purpose of the Bible. As the author says in another part of the article: "What then is the purpose of the Bible? The purpose of the Bible is to bear witness to Jesus Christ, who is the living expression of God, the Word of God. Jesus told the Jews, "...you do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life." (John 5:38-40) The Scriptures bear witness of Jesus. A good witness in a judicial setting does not focus attention on himself, but to the issue at hand. The Biblical writings do not point to themselves, but to Jesus Christ. The written record of God's expression and revelation of Himself in Jesus Christ is designed to direct a person to faith in Jesus Christ, to receptivity of the redemptive and functionally living activity of Jesus Christ. The apostle John explains the purpose of his writing the gospel narrative attributed to him, "these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31). The purpose of the Scriptures is to lead one to receive the life that is in Christ Jesus. The apostle Paul reminds Timothy of the value of the written record, urging him to "continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them; and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus" (II Timothy 3:14,15). The translation reads "sacred writings," but there is no intrinsic sacredness or holiness in the writings themselves, as has been previously noted. Paul was simply referring to the "God-given writings." The purpose of the writings is that they are "able to give...wisdom..." The God-given writings serve as a vehicle, an instrument, that the Spirit of God uses to impart the spiritual wisdom and discernment necessary to understand spiritual things in order that one might see their need for functionally restorative salvation, which comes only by the receptivity of the activity of the Savior, Jesus Christ. The Scriptures serve an instrumental means. " I know only too well from my own experience and that of others that without the quickening life of the Lord Jesus in a believer through His Holy Spirit, the Bible is just dead words on a page. It makes for dreary reading. But when the Holy Spirit quickens the words to the Believer they become more precious than gold. On a daily basis the Holy Spirit quickens words and verses and chapters so that they become light to my soul. But this is not the case for unbelievers. Without the life-giving Spirit they remain just words on a page. The Scriptures in and of themselves cannot give eternal life, they can only point to, and bear witness of, the One who can - Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ IS the gospel, the good news, the life, the truth, the way. Words ABOUT Jesus Christ can only point to this truth, they cannot BE Jesus. It is not the Bible that comes to live with the believer, it is Jesus Himself. God's gift to humanity, by which humanity may be restored to God's created purpose, is Himself. Blessings in Jesus.

Thank you, dear brothers and sisters, for your support and encouragement and ideas. I know that His grace is sufficient and that dread is just another word for fear - the opposite of faith - and anything that is not of faith is sin. I am trying to take the hols one day at a time and not look further forward than the next day. "Sufficient unto the day are the worries thereof....your heavenly Father knows what you need....." I'm also looking for new ways to delight in her; in spite of her disabilities and extensive needs, she is a great joy and blessing. Just the other day our Pastor visited and told me how much of a blessing she is to the church. Because her needs are so apparent, and because she is always so full of smiles and joyfulness, and innocent, childlike love for everyone (hugs all round if she gets a chance) when she attends church, she helps others to stop focusing on their own difficulties. The Lord has trusted me with one of His little ones that will remain little ones, and I should recognise the privilege, not count the cost. I have been singing the chorus, "Jesus, you are changing me, by your Spirit you're making me like You; Jesus you're transforming me that your loveliness may be seen in all I do. You are the potter and I am the clay, help me to be willing to let you have your way,; Jesus you are changing me as I let you reign supreme within my heart. " Singing choruses like this helps me to keep such truths at the forefront of my mind. Thank you again, brothers and sisters in Jesus.

You might be right. I am not so used to interact at such a low level, so I am at a loss here. I am also sorry for the other people that read though this, nothing to be proud of. Ya ya, third grade low level, blah blah blah. So bring it right down to my level and explain to me how exactly you demonstrated that anyone agrees with you. Dear OESD, I decided to follow Don' suggestion. This is the last time I reply to you. I have strong disagreements with the majority of people here, but the conversation has always been civilized and respectful, I think. You have the talent to get to my nerves and activate my emotions, and I hate emotions when discussing scientific, religious and ethical issues. it is not your fault, it is just the way it is. I also realized, I cannot and I do not want to use the same level of sarcasm which would imply a justified termination of my account and would offer a very poor picture of the discussion at hand to whomever is interested in the subject. I like disagreements, otherwise I would just spend my time with people who agree with me and we would spend all our time patting ourselves on the shoulders and saying how clever we are. This is not what I seek, and does not help me at all in thinking and getting new insights. But a certain basic level of mutual respect is a pre-condition. Take care. I have followed this thread with interest and it appears to me that you, Viole, are quitting because you're losing the argument. Nothing whatsoever to do with OESD's perceived sarcasm which, imo, is entirely justified by your flip-flopping and, at times, flippancy if, indeed, it actually qualifies as sarcasm. To my mind it is more like hyperbole, employed to make a point, coupled with turning your own words back against you by means of requesting that you re-examine your stated beliefs. Just an observation.

I do get a quite a lot of help from my husband and outside-the-family respite care, but the over-all responsibility falls to me. It is my attitude that concerns me. I know I should not be dreading the holidays as presently I am. Apart from all else, she is such a blessing with her demonstrative love for others and an inner joy that keeps her smiling, whatever the circumstance. She is so lovely in her innocence. She is like a one year old in a sixteen year old body in her innocence. It really is just total selfishness on my part - I don't want to be so needed that I have to abandon my personal interests - even if my personal interest is learning more about Jesus through Bible study or reading sermons etc. I know that is not what love should be. I need my living Lord Jesus to break through my selfishness in a really big way so that I can truly love her with Jesus' love, not some wretched approximation. 10 minutes and counting..... Please, Lord, break through my selfish desires................

Thanks, Tinky. 30 minutes and counting..... Please, Lord, work a miracle within my heart. I know you are in me and with me, I know you have the answer, but I'm just not seeing it right now. Please lift the scales from my eyes, dear Lord Jesus.

............the school holidays which start today in approx 45 minutes - yes, I'm actually counting down the minutes. I only have one child at home who still attends school and she is profoundly mentally and physically disabled and consequently very demanding of my time and attention. I've been trying to justify this dread by convincing myself that it will mean less time for Bible study and getting to know the Lord, but I know this is just an excuse. How can getting to know ABOUT the Lord ever replace knowing Him in action in and through me? Especially towards my daughter. It's such a lame excuse. I know I need to change so that I will delight in the opportunity that school holidays present. I just can't see a way forward at the moment. If an opportunity presents to go to the beach, for instance, I have to withdraw because of wheelchair inaccessibility. So many things are inaccessible to us either because of her physical disability or her mental disability. I cannot afford to spend huge amounts of money on, say, paying to visit an aquarium when, after 5 miniutes, she has totally lost focus and thus interest. And I have had to pay not only for her short interest but also to accompany her! It's a very expensive 5 minutes of interest, to be honest. So we tend to be stuck at home trying to do artwork that she cannot really do, or cooking that is more a demonstration on my part than active involvement on hers, and so on and so forth. I am just not equipped....Lord help me!

I know of a young couple (friends of one of my daughters) who were living together and decided they wanted to be married in church. At that time they were not Christians. The Pastor (or Reverend - I think it was a C of E church, but, hey, who's bothered about ecclesiastical titles) insisted that if they wanted to be married in church they must first come for instruction. They did so and were gloriously converted - praise the Lord from the rooftops! From that time on, they stopped co-habiting and, although they continued to live in the same house (a multiple-occupancy lodging), they rented an additional room and thereafter slept in separate bedrooms. They are getting married this coming Saturday and my daughter will be a bridesmaid. My point in recounting this is, I wonder whether the couple that you speak of are regenerate? Should they really be treated as "brethren" who have the Spirit of Truth living in them and therefore are living in deliberate disobedience to the Truth, or as unregenerate who do not have the Spirit of Truth in them and are in need of Him? Maybe what they really need is to be truly converted so that Jesus in them by His Spirit convicts them, as was the case with the young couple I spoke of above; i.e. they are not in need of church discipline so much as the Gospel of grace and the conviction of sin through the Spirit of God within. If it is a true saying: "by their works ye shall know them" (and I know it IS true) then does not the "work" of this young couple who choose to continue in their sin speak of unregenerate spirits? Having said this, I am in no position to know the spiritual state of the young couple to whom you refer in the O.P. and it could well be that they are in disobedience in need of church disciploine for the sake of the whole body. I pray that the Lord grants you wisdom and discernment. Blessings in Jesus.

I have found the following linked article very helpful. I think it addresses some of your concerns, Oak. I have quoted the conclusion of the article but it is well worth reading the whole. Throughout my Christian life there has been an ever-present temptation to slip back into legalism and book-religion. Articles like these help to remind me that we worship the LIVING Word - Jesus, and that it is Jesus, through His Spirit, who saves, not the written word. It is the living Jesus who is expressed in the life of a Christian, not the dead letter of the Law. It is quite a challenging article, as the author admits in the introductory paragraphs, but the Holy Spirit used it to convict me of an unhealthy tendency to replace the Living Word with the written word, for which I am truly thankful. http://www.christinyou.net/pages/Xnotbrel.html Christianity is NOT a Book-religion Though often perceived as the "religion of the Book," Christianity is only rightly understood as an ontological relationship with the Person of Jesus Christ who is the Word of God. (Concluding paragraphs.) If anyone should choose to refer to the Bible, the collected Scriptures, as the "Word of God," it should be remembered that such a designation can only be made in a secondary sense. The primary and absolute sense of the "Word of God" is in the expression of God in His Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus is the eternal Word of God expressed in creation, expressed in redemption, expressed in sanctification, expressed in glorification. The Bible is not the "Word of God" in an absolute sense. It is a book comprised of a compilation of "words" about the Word of God, Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself said, "The Scriptures bear witness of Me" (John 5:39). The written words point to the Living Word, Jesus Christ. In fact, the Bible does not even "contain" the Word of God, for such would be sacramentalism. The Living Word of God, Jesus Christ, cannot be imprisoned in a book. He must be free to express Himself as God in man, and that unto the functionally free humanity through which God intends to glorify Himself. As Jesus thus expresses Himself in us, by His Spirit, He will bear inner testimony in our spirit, and unto our minds, of the value of the Book, the Bible, in our lives. Apart from the illumination and enlightenment, the personal revelation of the Spirit of Christ, the spiritual insights, the living characterization factors, that are to be gained from the Biblical literature will never be appreciated anyway. The Spirit of God uses the Scripture preserved for us by God. The Living Word of God uses the written words of God. Jesus Christ uses the Bible to reveal how it is that He wants to function in us to reveal God in man. This is why we noted at the outset that the Bible is in one sense like every other book in the world: written words, literature, a bound-book. But in another sense the Bible is unlike every other book in the world. The Living Word, Jesus, uses this book to reveal how it is He has functioned and continues to function as God in man. The "natural man" does not understand spiritual things" (I Corinthians 2:14) no matter how many times he might attempt to read the words of the Bible. Jesus told His disciples, "when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth.." (John 16:13). The Spirit of Christ, Who is Truth (John 14:6), may utilize the Bible to reveal and disclose Himself, but He does not require the written book in order to do so. The Teacher is not tied to the text! The Spirit is not bound in the Bible! Christ is not chained or contained in the words of a book. Apart from the Living Word, Jesus Christ, functioning spiritually in our lives, the book is mere "letter" (legalistic biblicism), and there is no Spirit-action, no genuine divine functioning. To the Corinthians Paul wrote, "God... made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (II Corinthians 3:6,7). Mere book-religion kills, but Spirit-revelation gives life. Mere comprehension of Bible-words kills, but the Spirit of Christ, the Living Word of God, gives life. To the Romans Paul wrote, "we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter" (Romans 7:6). Christians are not "bound" to the "letter" of book-religion. We live and serve in the newness of the Spirit of Christ activating our lives from within. Without the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ reading the Bible will be like reading someone else's mail. You cannot understand it because it was not intended for you. Oh, you may be able to chart the history. You may be able to discuss the theology. You might even be able to produce detailed speculations about the future, but you will not be able to receive the living, spiritual implications of the life of Jesus Christ. This is why Martin Luther indicated that if your spiritual condition is that of the unregenerate, being devoid of the Spirit, you are better off reading some other book! That is also why it is said that "the Bible is the only book in the world that requires knowing the Author to understand the book." One must "know" and have a personal relationship with the Living Word expression of God in Jesus Christ in order to spiritually understand the written word expression of God in the Bible. As Christians today, coming as many of us do out of a Protestant tradition of biblicism, it is important that we keep our perspective properly focused on the Person of Jesus Christ, not just on Bible-learning. Jesus Christ is the Truth, not mere propositional truths contained in ever-evolving semantics. Our faith is not in the Bible. Our hope is not in the Bible. Our love is not love for the Bible. Our faith, hope and love are in Jesus Christ. Our base of authority is not in the Bible, as has often been projected by popular Protestantism, the "religion of the Book." Our base of authority is in Jesus Christ, who said, "All authority is given to Me, in heaven and upon earth" (Matthew 28:18). Our security is not in the Bible. Many seem to base their security on Bible promises and propositions, on Bible formulas, procedures and techniques. Our security is founded on a vital, dynamic on-going personal relationship with the Living Lord Jesus Christ. I am assured and secure in the reality that God is expressive in my life by Jesus Christ. I know it, not because the Bible makes a statement ("the Bible tells me so") or gives me a procedure. I know it (Him) because the eternal life and eternal expression of Jesus Christ is functioning in my life. This is not mere experiential existentialism. Somewhere between the extremes of objective biblicism and subjective existentialism is the reality of the functional Life of Jesus Christ in man. As Christians we want to know Jesus as the Word of God, the expression of God in man, rather than just words from a book. We want to experience the Person of Jesus, not just examine the photograph, the picture, that represents the reality. We want to be sheep who hear His voice, the voice of the Shepherd, not just sheep who "feed" on the fodder of theological canned goods, or Scriptural scrapings. The Life of Jesus Christ who is the Living expression of God, the Living Word, is to be expressed in gospel proclamation that shares the "word of truth," the "word of life," the "word of salvation." II Timothy 3:16 indicates that "all scripture/writings are profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be adequately equipped for every good work" (which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them - Ephesians 2:10). It is true that the Bible is to be taught, and that God has gifted some as teachers (Ephesians 4:11; I Corinthians 12:28; Romans 12:7). But the process of Biblical instruction (teaching), and the product of the instruction (Bible-knowledge) must not become ends in themselves. It appears to me that there has been the perpetuation of a poisonous and counter-productive pedagogy in evangelical ecclesiasticism, a "teaching model" that perpetuates book-religion, Bible knowledge, and getting "fed" through Scripture instruction. This creates dysfunctional Christianity, mere Christian-religion, which does not issue forth in the outworking expression of Christ's life. Christianity is not a book-religion! Christianity is Christ functioning as the expressive Word of God in man. by James A. Fowler