Women Pastors

[Nicks Girl]

I don't understand how women can twist the bible to make it say what they want, or what THEY think the Bible meant. The Bible is perfectly clear (as I said in a previous post) about the requirements of a pastor, the leader of a church, or deacon. He must be the husband of one wife. Someone PLEASE tell me how a woman can be the husband of one wife.

[Shelby]

Deirdre,

It might be taken a little better if you would choose better words. No one is twisting scripture here. God will endow HIS understanding to HIS people. This is an issue between God and each person. This is not something that is necessary to Salvation, so God will speak to each one of us. To make such a remark "twisting scripture" is to judge and demean the integrity of those posting in opposition to you. You can have an opinion without disrespecting people as you state it.

I am sure that you are confident in your position, and that is good, but instead of calling others blaphemers, see what God is teaching you through this. Either to solidify your current beliefs, or to possibly offer another view, ones of experience and deep study by those of us who have really searched the scriptures on this issue in particular.

To get so bogged down by a subject that is not necessary to Salvation will only put barriers unless each of us opens our mind to see what God has spoken to our hearts on this and every subject. Most of us feel confident in our beliefs, that is why we are so comfortable coming on a discussion board.

God bless!

[keslc]

It is difficult to really understand the "tone" of a post over the internet, but.....

Nick's girl,

I took your last post to be very judgemental. It was the last thing I read last night before going to bed and I wanted to reply then, but I thought I had better sleep on it.

(this is not directed solely at Nick's girl, just fyi)

I think it is important to remember a few things whenever we are coming to decisions or stances on issues such as this. 1. we need to consider the WHOLE teachings of the Bible and look at passages within the context (cultural or otherwise). Some people may not see that as very important, but it really is. We need to know what Paul (or whoever the author is) is talking about to understand the instruction. Let me just give a "what if" scenario to illustrate what I mean. (I am not "down talking" to anyone, I am just a person that understands things better with analogies or examples. It helps me get a clearer, more concrete picture of things) Lets pretend Paul went to China and began a church there and when he left he wrote a letter to the congregation there. He remembered the practice of "foot binding" (for anyone who does not know what that is check out China Foot binding, granted this practice didn't start until about 960 AD, but follow me here...) and in his letter he instructed the people "not to practice the binding of your daughters feet". That statment seems to be very clear and to the point, but if we were reading that today and not taking into consideration or bothering to find out what he was referring to, we could conceivably be arguing over letting our daughters wear shoes with laces in them. See what I mean? 2. We need to seek GOD when wanting to gain understanding. We cannot rely on other people, no matter how good they are, or doctrine, no matter how good it may be, to be our sole source of understanding. That is what the Holy Spirit is for, that is what God wants to do, teach us! Proverbs 3:5-6, Psalms 119, and others teach us that we must come to Him for understanding.

Nick's girl brought up some scripture from 1 Timothy 3 regarding overseers and deacons. Again, I think context and looking at the surrounding scriptures and prayerful consideration is important in understanding what is being said. I'd like to encourage anyone to read through chapter 3 and continue on to chapter 4 and consider why those two chapters would be right next to each other. Pray over it as well.

These are things I have done and continue to do. I do not hold that I have the final word on this (or any) issue, but I do sincerely pray for understanding from the Lord and my current stance is one I feel I've been led to by Him. All I want is to be obedient whatever that means I need to do. I will agree all day long, every day that a woman should submit to her husband, that all christians submit to authority and leadership, and that God is THE authority. I will agree all day long that there are instructions given to us in orderliness of worship and that leaders must be Godly and obedient and willing to heed the Lord and to be used by Him.

Sorry this is so long, I didn't start out thinking of a long post, lol! I understand that this is something christians may never come to agreement about. That is between each of us and the Lord. However, I know that we agree that God is the Lord over our lives and we each desire to seek Him. I am glad that He is patient with us as we muddle through! May God bless each of you!

[stevehut]

Someone PLEASE tell me how a woman can be the husband of one wife.

That is a requirement for elders (bishops). Not every preacher is an elder.

[Kabowd]

Someone PLEASE tell me how a woman can be the husband of one wife.

That is a requirement for elders (bishops). Not every preacher is an elder.

Acutally, The word for "bishop" is episkope, which means "overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder, the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church". This is clearly a position of authority. A pastor does not need to be called an "elder" to recognize he has a position of authority. The Bible is very clear that authority within the home and the church should go to men. Here's just an overview:

Ephesians 5:22-24

"Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything."

Colossians 3:18-19

"Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be embittered against them"

1 Timothy 2:11-15

"A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."

1 Peter 3:1-2

"In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives"

The word "submit" in Greek is hupotasso. It means to subordinate, to obey, etc. When it's used in the Bible, it refers to a position that's not voluntary. Meaning that a person in a position to submit is technically (because of their position) "in subjection" or "subdued" already. It's not optional. It's a commandment. Look at this verse:

"Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men."1 Peter 2:13a

God takes submission to authority seriously. To deny God's design for the church (saying it was cultural or otherwise) would mean we could also choose to deny His design for the home. We quickly get in to trouble here because we know for a fact that the relationship between a husband and wife is a picture of Christ and His Bride, the church. We need to be careful that we don't start defining when we will choose to submit or rebel. I doubt anyone wants to suggest that the church should not submit to Christ.

Again, preaching and teaching are not positions of authority. Super Jew explained earlier how the Greek words for "authority" and "teaching" are two very different concepts. Teaching does not constitute "authority". However, based on the consistency of God's design and order, I believe for woman to teach or preach within the church, she must first have permission from her husband and the senior pastor of the church.

[stevehut]

Acutally, The word for "bishop" is episkope, which means "overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder, the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church". This is clearly a position of authority.

Tess, if you have read my other posts, I am basically agreeing with you that ministers should be men. And your reasoning about church authority is sound. But the proof-text that you used is not fitting for the occasion.

Paul instructed both Timothy and Titus to appoint elders in the various churches. Could it be that these churches didn't already have a minister? I doubt it.

Clearly, the office of the bishop/overseer/elder is separate from the office of the "regular" minister.

[Nicks Girl]

You ARE twisting scripture if you say that it's a matter between God and each person, when the Bible has clearly stated that those in authority in the church are to be men. I know it's not a salvation issue, but it's still an issue. It is something that I believe God put there for a reason. If you disagree with this, then you are question God's Word. You are saying that God didn't really mean what he said when HE put those verses in our Bibles. I'm sorry if I seemed Judgemental, or offensive to some, but that is what the Bible says. How can you believe that it's ok for women to be pastors, ministers, etc, in a position of authority when the Bible has said otherwise?

[Shelby]

If you disagree with this, then you are question God's Word. You are saying that God didn't really mean what he said when HE put those verses in our Bibles. I'm sorry if I seemed Judgemental, or offensive to some, but that is what the Bible says. How can you believe that it's ok for women to be pastors, ministers, etc, in a position of authority when the Bible has said otherwise?

You know Deirdre I do try to respond with love and understanding. I don't feel that you are acting in kind. You state such Judgemental "facts", and you question our integrity. I told you have been, as well as others on this forum, searching Gods Word on this particular subject for a LONG TIME.

I think you stated how you really feel above.

If you disagree with this

You seem to always get frustrated when I bring up your age but I feel that this particular post really shows what I mean. I don't take offense though, because I know what God called me to. I know that God has breathed into my heart and mind HIS understanding. Once again, I will not scripture pick. CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. Not to mention, we should take into consideration the whole, chapter, then book, and entire Bible when we are reading. I think to be so legalistic is to limit God's LIVING Word.

Truly, I am quite comfortable with my standing with God. So why should you condemn? It is not your job, you can give Holy Discussion, but when you question someone, (especially whom you don't know) regarding their integrity, and relationship with God; reflects more on yourself. Take time to rest in your spirit. You will appreciate other opinions, and develop a greater understanding for God's people, and maybe, just maybe God will use this understanding to witness to your spirit.

God bless you, I don't want to offend you, but it does seem to me you have changed lately. I remember you back in July before you got married, it seems you are a little bit restless in your spirit. Breathe sister. Marriage is hard, and if you don't see that now, you will in a few years. Take time for yourself. Bask in your unknown path (by you) and know that it is a daily surrendering and softening of your heart.

In love,

Shelby :hug:

[Nicks Girl]

You know Deirdre I do try to respond with love and understanding. I don't feel that you are acting in kind. You state such Judgemental "facts", and you question our integrity. I told you have been, as well as others on this forum, searching Gods Word on this particular subject for a LONG TIME.

I'm truly sorry if I seemed unkind. I really don't see how I came across more unkind than anyone else who has talked about this subject, or judgemental. I'm simply stating what the Bible says, and that as Christians we say we believe the whole Bible, yet people still try to make it say what they want. Yes,that is my opinion, but I hardly see how that has to do with my age. You seem to constantly blame everything I believe on my age, and it really has nothing to do with it.

I believe what I believe because the Bible says it.

You're right, I don't know you personally, but I am judging from what you've said. I'm not saying anyone is going to lose their salvation over this. I'm simply concerned about disagreement with the Bible. I'm glad you are comfortable with your stance with God, and this truly is an issue between you and him.

However, instead of answering my questions on this topic, my age has come into play and somehow my age is at fault for my belief that the Bible is true,(also my marriage, at least that is how your post came across to me)

The Bible is perfectly clear (as I said in a previous post) about the requirements of a pastor, the leader of a church, or deacon. He must be the husband of one wife. Someone PLEASE tell me how a woman can be the husband of one wife.

Tess did a wonderful job with posting many verses(in context) that have to do with men being in authority. The Bible is full of these kinds of verses, and I am not picking and choosing here. I don't want to question anyone's integrity or heart. But, I will question someone when they say they believe something I sincere believe the Bible has taught against. Especially to fellow believers.

God bless you, I don't want to offend you, but it does seem to me you have changed lately. I remember you back in July before you got married, it seems you are a little bit restless in your spirit. Breathe sister. Marriage is hard, and if you don't see that now, you will in a few years. Take time for yourself. Bask in your unknown path (by you) and know that it is a daily surrendering and softening of your heart.

Marriage is definitely hard. I am loving being marriage, and enjoying the time I have with my husband. It is something to work at, but we only grow more in love everyday. Restless in my spirit huh? hmm, I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but I assure you I feel quite the opposite. I've been able to feel very at peace, and enjoying my relationship with the Lord, especially since my husband and I can spend alot of our time in the Word, and in prayer. (as we did before we were married). Again, I'm not sure where my marriage comes into play here in this post. What does my marriage have to do with the fact that I believe women are not to be ministers, or pastors, as such?

In Christ,

Deirdre

[Orr v'emet]

1 Timothy 2:11-15

"A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."

I was following this early on and backed off for a while so forgive me if I ask questions on something that has been addressed already. This is an issue that I really ride the fence on. I have been brought up to believe that women should have no leadership roles in the church but I see women in leadership roles whom I believe are anointed godly women who are drawing people to Christ.

The above verses are obviously always used in discussions such as these. Everyone tends to focus on the parts about being submissive and not exercising authority over a man etc. I wonder if we are overlooking the part that says "but to remain quiet". If we are taking these verses literally, which it seems that we are then why don't we take this part literally. If we do take this at face value as it says, then women shouldn't be singing special music, taking other roles in worship services etc. We should be on the pew in silence. Any thoughts on this or should we continue to choose to leave this part out?