About the beginning

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Scientific Atheist,

In other words, you cannot have any knowledge or certainty about written statements in any language without first assuming the fundamental laws of logic do apply. Thus, logic becomes primary to finding out truth, with manuscripts such as the bible as secondary. There is no escaping it I'm afraid, no argument that can possibly be brought forward against it, as any such argument would be based on logic itself, and thus would be self defeating.

Believe me, I certainly appreciate your instruction AND this dialogue. However, you are assuming that I must submit to a "higher authority" than the Word of God. My highest goal is to "be like Christ". Thereby I was given the Word of God in order to achieve that goal.

Let's say I wanted to visit someone across town. I hop in my car and follow the direction I was given until I finally arrive there. Neither my car nor the directions I received have ANY precedence over the achievement of that goal. I only submit to those two devices to achieve the higher goal of reaching my destination.

Since I won't achieve my goal of "being like Christ" UNTIL I am called out of this world, my current goal is to "run the race in a manner that I might obtain my ultimate goal.

I am not averse to "logic", but it is ONLY a tool. In fact many people around me think that I use too much "logic" and TOO LITTLE of the Holy Spirit's guidance, when in fact I DO wait patiently upon the Lord to follow the path He directs.

Did you know that the Lord says that one day "knowledge shall pass away"? Well the reason for this is because we will be living and worshipping "in SPIRIT and in TRUTH". We shall know Him, even as we are now known by Him. We won't be hindered by these carnal bodies and minds we currently reside in.

I love it when God intercedes on my behalf. The times that He has, that I have become aware of, I just stood back in total amazement knowing that my thoughts and deeds had NOTHING to do with God's response, except that He FIRST loved me and responded to my needs, even without the benefit of knowledge OR LOGIC.

How often have you heard of "miracles" or perhaps even seen them where no ordinary explanation or LOGIC would suffice to explain them away? In the Kingdom of God - where I live, these things happen all the time. Science can't explain away or LOGIC explain so many things that I have seen and known of.

So again, NO, I have no higher authority in my life than the Holy Word of God, NOT even LOGIC.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Bread_of_Life]

Ernie,

I think we might be talking at crossed purposes. I am not suggesting that you worship logic, or give it some sort of ceremonial or religious role in your life. That would be stupid.

I'm also not saying that you follow the commands of logic, since logic makes no commands - rather logic is the process by which we move from premise to conclusion with little or no intrinsic content to follow.

What I am saying is that your belief in God and the Bible is subject to logic, because you have to assume logic in order to maintain that belief. You cannot, for example, tell me that you reject logic but accept the bible - this would be impossible, since the content of the bible is just a long series of logical statements. Without logic, there is no way to interpret the bible, because the very language it is written in fundamentally assumes the truth of logic.

Therefore, when you are reasoning about God, you cannot abandon logic, or hold to something that is illogical, claiming that your first authority is the bible. Actually, before you even go and read the bible, you have to assume the truth of logic implicitely. The assumption of logic is therefore primary (in an epistemological sense) to the bible (or any other text) - it is assumed even in your argument above.

Therefore you are forced to assume that God is subject to logic (that he cannot do things that are illogical) - in a way that God is *not* subject to science (he can do things that are unscientific - that go against the laws of nature). If you assumed that logic was "breakable" - that God (or anyone else) could go against it - then you would have eroded the foundation of every single argument you make for God, and every single phrase in the bible. Without logic, I could argue that the bible had any meaning at all I wanted it to have, for example, as I showed in my last post.

So, when I show that an argument you have made is non-sequitor, that the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises - you can't simply say that you disagree because you reject logic. Every sentence you write (even "I disagree because I reject logic") is based on the assumption of logic's truth. Every sentence you read in the bible has already assumed the truth of logic and the falsity of illogic.

Also, if you claimed that God had done something illogical, or represented something illogical based on something you'd read in the bible - then this would be an untenable belief - since the things you read in the bible are written in a language constructed around logical axioms. Without such logical axioms, you would have no basis for confidence in the bible, since it would be impossible to decipher the meaning of anything therein.

So, no, you don't have to bow down to the God of logic. However, you do have to admit that your belief in God is subject to the laws of logic - that you could not read or understand his word without first assuming the truth of logical axia - that you could not make any argument for his existence without first assuming the same logical axia.

[Guest idied2]

No actually, that is such complete nonsense that I can't quite get what you are saying. I think you are trying to be cutesy about the crucifixion, resurrection and judgment day but who can tell.

When was the last time you saw a malignant tumor removed from the body and cast in the fire? If you thaink that's cutesy you are sick. I am as serious as a heart attack.

you said in your arrogance not to quote scripture and now you want to tell me about the "crucifixion, resurrection and judgment day? OK here is the answer to your question.

God is SPIRIT. HIS throne is heaven which is the atmosphere of earth. Everything continues to exist because HE continues to will it so. HE can change anything at will instantly. If HE willed the universe to be gone instantly and the earth to remain it would be so. He created it all for JESUS CHRIST who came here for the purpose of reconsiling his creation man to himself. Is there life on other planets? NO because GOD would have told us if he had created life on other planets. GOD does not have mans deceptive agenda.

In CHRIST JESUS :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[georgesbluegirl]

"What I'm asking here is, do Christians believe that God created the infinite Universe and everything in it and then created life on one single planet?"

I sure don't. Something I heard once...maybe we are the only ones around, but if so, seems like an awful waste of space.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Scientific Atheist,

With your many references to the Bible as being "logical", can I then assume that you believe that to be true? If its entirety IS "logical", then how can you attempt to prove the illogicalness of any part of it? Jesus, Himself, validated so much of the OT, as to virtually approve all that was written in it. How can anyone argue with such an authority?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Slippery Slope]

Greetings Scientific Atheist,

With your many references to the Bible as being "logical", can I then assume that you believe that to be true? If its entirety IS "logical", then how can you attempt to prove the illogicalness of any part of it? Jesus, Himself, validated so much of the OT, as to virtually approve all that was written in it. How can anyone argue with such an authority?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Dad Ernie, are you simply pretending like you don't understand SA or are you really incapable of understanding the basic logic of communication?

SA is not saying the meaning or context of the bible is logical or illogical, he is saying that the process of putting together coherent sentences within the bible is based on the logic we employ to read and understand it. Without the ability to use logic a typical sentence in the bible would be unreadable and might look like this, "god the and sky car from sit jack below with how is". or actually since you need logic to form a word it would actually look like this; "eog sorkhtg soslw asoaslw a aop a-psgrv trlv". Your brain must use logic to understand a word; it's meaning and its context in a sentence.

-SS

[Bread_of_Life]

Dad Ernie

With your many references to the Bible as being "logical", can I then assume that you believe that to be true?

No. There are 2 reasons for this:

1. As SS said, I am not saying the meaning or context of the bible is logical or illogical, I am saying that the process of putting together coherent sentences within the bible is based on the logic we employ to read and understand it. In other words, the statements in the bible may be logical or illogical - but the language that is used to make them are based on boolean statements (in other words, whether or not the content is actually logical, in that the bible uses language, it definetely assumes logic).

2. Even if the bible were perfectly logical (every statement made logical sense) that would not mean that the bible were true. Let me explain. Take this argument:

P1: If the sky is blue then Dad Ernie is a muslim.

P2: The sky is blue

C: Dad Ernie is a muslim.

The above argument is valid. Validity means that we have not made an error in logic - which is the process by which we move from premise to conclusion. In other words, the argument is logical (that's what valid means) - the conclusion is correct *given* the premises.

However, Premise 1 is false. That doesn't make the argument illogical, it makes it incorrect. What would make it illogical is if we drew the wrong conclusions given the premises, for logic is the process by which we move from premise to conclusion.

For example, take this argument:

P1: Atheists disbelieve in God

P2: Nikolai is an atheist

C: Therefore Nikolai believes in God.

This argument *is* illogical. The premises are true - but the conclusion is the wrong one given these premises. We have made an error in logical - the argument is non-sequitor (the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises).

So, we conclude that the even a logical argument can be wrong - good logic is no guarantee of truth, only of validity. Therefore even if every argument in the bible is flawlessly logical, this would not mean that the bible is true, for it could be arguing from false premises. Take this final example:

P1: Everyone who believes in Jesus will have eternal life

P2: Dad Ernie believes in Jesus

C: Dad Ernie will have eternal life.

This argument is flawlessly logical, the conclusion follows from the premise, it is valid. However, it's also untrue in my opinion, in that I believe P1 is false.

[Slippery Slope]

No actually, that is such complete nonsense that I can't quite get what you are saying. I think you are trying to be cutesy about the crucifixion, resurrection and judgment day but who can tell.

When was the last time you saw a malignant tumor removed from the body and cast in the fire? If you thaink that's cutesy you are sick. I am as serious as a heart attack.

you said in your arrogance not to quote scripture and now you want to tell me about the "crucifixion, resurrection and judgment day? OK here is the answer to your question.

God is SPIRIT. HIS throne is heaven which is the atmosphere of earth. Everything continues to exist because HE continues to will it so. HE can change anything at will instantly. If HE willed the universe to be gone instantly and the earth to remain it would be so. He created it all for JESUS CHRIST who came here for the purpose of reconsiling his creation man to himself. Is there life on other planets? NO because GOD would have told us if he had created life on other planets. GOD does not have mans deceptive agenda.

In CHRIST JESUS :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

idied2, I don't understand your attacking me as if I made light of some surgical procedure you've undergone. Your sophomoric attempt at some analogy of Jesus being a surgeon removing a virus from my DNA confused me. It sounded like your analogy had something to do with judgment day but I am unsure. If you could clarify what you mean then perhaps I could understand. This time say what you mean without the "doctor Jesus" analogy.

I don't understand how you arrive at the notion that there was arrogance involved when I asked for the answer to my question to not be a quote from scripture. I was asking for OPINION. Christians tend to want to quote scripture instead of presenting their own point of view. That is the reason for my request.

and now you want to tell me about the "crucifixion, resurrection and judgment day?

No, I was asking if that was what your analogy was about.

Thank you for your opinion. I will of course have to ask you a question regarding your response, but I'll use another thread for that.

-SS

[Slippery Slope]

That is a good one Dad Ernie !!!!

We are spending too much money into exploring the universe.

Whereas, we need to spend the money to feed the millions of people that are hungry in the UNITED STATES.

The answers are in GODS' WORD.

JOHN 1:11

He was in the world , and the world was made through HIM, and the world did not know HIM.

Scientist are wasting our hard earned money on the universe to see if there is life on other planets.......all for nothing, in my opinion...

Or, on the other hand scientist will try to find out how man got here, on Earth.

I think that if there is life on other planets, JESUS would have let us know...lol

LOVE and PEACE to everyone, :hug:

How can you say we are spending too much on space exploration? Don't you think God made the universe for us to explore? Otherwise he would not have given us the desire to explore nor made the universe so vast.

On top of that consider all of the inovations which are by-products of the pursuit of that exploration. From the common everyday things in your home to new ways to produce more food.

Think first, speak later.

-SS

[Slippery Slope]

"What I'm asking here is, do Christians believe that God created the infinite Universe and everything in it and then created life on one single planet?"

I sure don't. Something I heard once...maybe we are the only ones around, but if so, seems like an awful waste of space.

Some would say God created the universe for us to explore. I hope the end of days doesn't come before we get to exploring much of it or it really would be a waste.

-SS