Will Christians Be Here During the Great Trib? by John Piper

[stevehauk]

Shalom, truth7t7.

Again we have the gathering of His elect all happening AFTER the tribulation period!

So.....will the saints be here during the Tribulation period? We can only go with what thus saith the Lord!

I agree, the believers will be on earth until the "Last Day" of earths history, going the the tribulation, dispensationalism, has several false resurrections of the believer, when in reality this is the resurrection, and gathering at the "Last Day" Matthew 24:29-30 KJV shows Gods judgement and the destruction of the heavens earth at his appearing, perfectly in agreement with 2 Peter 3:10-12 KJV, dispensationalism has broken this truth up by giving a false teaching that there is a "day of Christ", and a "day of the Lord" teaching these are two seperate events, when in reality they are the same.

I smile at the teaching in 2 Thessolonians 2:1-3 KJV and when the conditions must be met prior to the Lords return, "falling away" and "antichrist revealed" the very passage talking to the church states "Let no man deceive you by any means" this warning is being spoken to the believer in Matthew 24:15 KJV also and the very deception is being taught, the passage talking to me, states if I'm alive I will see the antichrist seated, they teach the "falling away" is the rapture, the restrainer is the church, that denies that the beliver will see the "antichrist" big "smile"!

The teachings of dispensationalism, Newton, Darby, and Scofield, being the foundational roots, has a future rebuilt temple and sacrifical system going, and a physical christ returning to take the throne of David, who will this walk on christ be? "antichrist"! Zionism is preparing the world for the coming "antichrist" that will be Jewish/Hebrew in his decent, posing to be the returned messiah to Jews and Jesus to the apostate religious world, deception.

All believers that sleep in Jesus Christ will "first" be resurrected at the "last day" and those alive will be gathered, and "second" the wicked will be resurrected to damnation , this is the same resurrection seen in Matt 24 KJV, Daniel 12:1-2 that will take place after the tribulation, on the "Last Day" prior to Gods wrath.

The very chapter 1 Cor 15 KJV, that leads the teaching of the dispensational rapture, explains simply that time of the Lords coming and changing the believers will be the "Last Day", Vs 23 Christ the "firstfruits" first glorified body received after resurrection, Jesus Christ, then they that are Christs at his coming, "the believers at his coming", "then the end", the last enemy destroyed will be "DEATH", Vs 54 "death is swallowed up in victory" the end of the earth world, and beginning of the spiritual kingdom, "New Jerusalem".

1 Cor 15:23-28 KJV

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Lords Judgement will have taken place of death, the last enemy, at the believers receiving their glorified bodies, at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, this will be the "Last Day"

1 Cor 15:50-54 KJV

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

The Lord will come as a "thief in the night" on the "Last Day" in firey judgement, destroying the heavens, earth, and the wicked!

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 KJV

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10-12 KJV

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

The resurrection of believers will be on the "Last Day" as taught by Jesus Christ to his followers!

John 11:23-24 KJV

23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 6:39-41 KJV

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 5:29 KJV

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Daniel 12:1-2 King James Version (KJV)

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The Judgement will have taken place, "death the last enemy", at the the Lords coming and believers receiving their glorified bodies, this will be the "Last Day"

Revelation 20:13-15 KJV

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Truth7t7

Sorry, but that position is not right, either. You, too, are ignoring a few key, salient points that Yeshua` and Rav Sha'uwl "Paulos" make:

First, you have ignored the parable that Yeshua` gave in Luke 19:

Luke 19:11-28

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.

19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.

22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?

24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)

26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.

KJV

His Kingdom comes WITH HIM! It's not here, yet!

Now, consider Matthew 25:

Matt 25:31-46

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

KJV

This passage is NOT said to be a parable at all! It is an account of what will actually happen when Yeshua haMashiach returns! Have you ever noticed that He is always called "the Messiah," "the Christ?" The term is from the Hebrew word "Mashiach," which means "anointed one." There were three (or four, depending on your point of view) positions for which a person was "anointed": He may be anointed as priest, prophet, or king (and a judge through being king). Seldom was Yeshua` EVER referred to as being "King," and most of those were in PROPHECY! To anoint someone was to pour a special oil (Exodus 30:22-33) upon that person's head and RUB it in to the person's hair and scalp. In fact, the term, although said to mean "anoint," literally means to "rub" or to "paint" a person with that oil. It was a process that proved that the person was especially selected by God for that position. Isn't it interesting that He is never said to be reigning now but will be reigning in the future? Matthew 25 will be fulfilled literally when Yeshua` returns at His second Advent.

Psalm 2 has never been fulfilled, yet. I'm going to quote it with punctuation for clarity:

Psalm 2:1-12

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: <the Lord hath said unto me, 'Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.'>

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."

KJV

There are a series of nested quotes within verses 6 through 12: God the Father is speaking in verses 6 and 7a. Then in verse 7b, Yeshua`, God's Son is doing the talking; however, part of the Son's speech includes yet another nested quote of God the Father within the decree from 7c through verse 9. The rest of the passage, from verses 10 through 12, are God the Father speaking at the same level as in verses 6 and 7a. So, God the Father - YHVH - is telling this counsel of kings (a UN meeting) to obey His Son or else! This passage has NEVER been fulfilled, yet, but as all other Messianic prophecies that were fulfilled during Yeshua`s first Advent literally, so this passage will be fulfilled literally, as well! Yeshua` will yet literally reign over the Gentile nations of the earth with a "rod (sceptre) of iron."

This is the Kingdom that you misinterpreted in 1 Corinthians 15 and misrepresented in Revelation 20. Make no mistake, either. He doesn't "rule and reign for a thousand years" (as some have claimed). The Millennium is just the BEGINNING 1000 years of His reign (which also happens to be the last 1000 years of this present earth and sky)! Here's the REAL understanding of these passages:

1 Cor. 15:12-28

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

KJV

This context of this chapter (and we could have quoted the whole chapter, by the way) is the RESURRECTION! Rav Sha'uwl "Paulos" first argues for the truth of the resurrection, and then he lists when they will occur: 0) the firstfruits - Yeshua` the Messiah, 1) they who are the Messiah's AT HIS SECOND COMING, and then 2) at the End (of the Age), which is identified by a) the Messiah delivering up the Kingdom to God the Father, when b) he has put all things under Himself. The key is verse 25: "For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet." Thus, besides the Firstfruits of the Messiah Himself, there are two resurrections: 1) the resurrection of the justified at His Second Advent, and 2) the general resurrection after the first 1000 years of His reign at the End of the Age prior to the Great White Throne Judgment, the sentencing to the Lake of Fire and Sulphur, and the re-Creation of the earth and sky into the New Earth and the New Sky of Revelation 21:1.

Revelation 20:1-21:1

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

KJV

The last sentence of verse 5 refers to verses 4 and 6, not to the first part of verse 5. Thus, the first resurrection occurs BEFORE the 1000 years, but the second resurrection occurs AFTER the 1000 years in verse 13. The destruction of Death is found in verse 14; this parallels 1 Corinthians 15:26 as the last enemy that is subdued by the Messiah who will be reigning during those 1000 years. Death is not defeated at the first resurrection when we receive our new bodies, for death will still be present during the 1000 years (although not for us)! OT prophecies tell us that, particularly Isaiah 60-66, but the Messiah also uses death to His advantage during the Millennium, as seen in Psalm 2:12 above!

Contrary to popular opinion, the Scriptures tell us that the Millennium, the first 1000 years of the Messiah's reign as Isra'el's King and then as King of Kings - or World Emperor - as more and more peoples choose to be tributary to the Messiah's Kingdom, will NOT be a "time of world peace!" There will only be peace WITHIN His Kingdom, until such time as His Kingdom fills the earth. He will FORCE other nations of the earth to "tow the line!"

It's not right to just cram everything into a single event - the Second Coming - and say it's all over! There's more time yet to occur in this second earth and second sky before the third earth and third sky begin (2 Cor. 12:1-4; 2 Peter 3:3-13).

Now, WILL Christians be here during the Great Tribulation? Sure we will! We have no guarantee that we will be yanked out of this world ahead of time! To the contrary, the purpose of the Rapture (harpazo) is NOT to avoid God's Wrath but is to collect us quickly as an army for Yeshua`s descent into the Middle East at His Second Coming. It's a form of "mass transit system!" Furthermore, while we receive our new bodies "in the twinkling of an eye," the actual collection process will take some time!

In the Messiah's love,

Roy

Roy, no offense, but this stuff is without a doubt past fulfillment. I'm not saying everything is past fulfillment, but the tribulation and return of Christ is--among other things.