GoldenEagle Posted June 28, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 28, 2013 Butero, I think this quote says a lot: “The gospel of justifying faith means that while Christians are, in themselves still sinful and sinning, yet in Christ, in God’s sight, they are accepted and righteous. So we can say that we are more wicked than we ever dared believe, but more loved and accepted in Christ than we ever dared hope — at the very same time. This creates a radical new dynamic for personal growth. It means that the more you see your own flaws and sins, the more precious, electrifying, and amazing God’s grace appears to you. But on the other hand, the more aware you are of God’s grace and acceptance in Christ, the more able you are to drop your denials and self-defenses and admit the true dimensions and character of your sin.” -Timothy Keller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 Butero, I think this quote says a lot: “The gospel of justifying faith means that while Christians are, in themselves still sinful and sinning, yet in Christ, in God’s sight, they are accepted and righteous. So we can say that we are more wicked than we ever dared believe, but more loved and accepted in Christ than we ever dared hope — at the very same time. This creates a radical new dynamic for personal growth. It means that the more you see your own flaws and sins, the more precious, electrifying, and amazing God’s grace appears to you. But on the other hand, the more aware you are of God’s grace and acceptance in Christ, the more able you are to drop your denials and self-defenses and admit the true dimensions and character of your sin.” -Timothy Keller I don't agree with this. I don't believe that Christians can continue to be in wilful sin and be accepted and righteous in God's sight. I know we all make mistakes, and I don't believe mistakes will cause us to lose our salvation, but I don't believe we can continue in wilful sin and remain accepted by God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 From the same book of Galatians: Galatians 5:19-21 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkeness, revelings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things, shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is absolute proof that those who claim that Christian freedom is the freedom to live lawless are in error. If that message were true, you could do all these things and still keep your inheritance in the Kingdom of God. The reason why you are free from the law when you walk in the Spirit, is because the Spirit will lead you to live in a way where you don't violate the law. You will bear fruit. The same passage goes on to say... 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance, against such there is no law. If you move back to verse 18, it says... 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, yea re not under the law. This is not complicated, but those who are preaching the false message that Christian freedom means we are ok even if we continue in sin refuse to see. Nobody needs freedom to sin. We all had that ability before we got saved. We need freedom to break the bondgage of sin in our lives. You asked if I had anything else to add concerning the passage. I think I was pretty thorough here. I also believe that having read your quote concerning how Christians continue to sin, but they are supposedly still righteous in the sight of God shows that I did understand what you were preaching. I don't agree with that doctrinal viewpoint. Galatians 5:19-21 says that people that continue in sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If they were righteous in the sight of God, they would inherit the Kingdom of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted June 29, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 Butero, I think this quote says a lot: “The gospel of justifying faith means that while Christians are, in themselves still sinful and sinning, yet in Christ, in God’s sight, they are accepted and righteous. So we can say that we are more wicked than we ever dared believe, but more loved and accepted in Christ than we ever dared hope — at the very same time. This creates a radical new dynamic for personal growth. It means that the more you see your own flaws and sins, the more precious, electrifying, and amazing God’s grace appears to you. But on the other hand, the more aware you are of God’s grace and acceptance in Christ, the more able you are to drop your denials and self-defenses and admit the true dimensions and character of your sin.” -Timothy Keller I don't agree with this. I don't believe that Christians can continue to be in wilful sin and be accepted and righteous in God's sight. I know we all make mistakes, and I don't believe mistakes will cause us to lose our salvation, but I don't believe we can continue in wilful sin and remain accepted by God. I don't think Tim Keller is talking about willful sin. He's talking about sinning daily/weekly as this is inevitable even as a Christian. Of course, as I recall you believe that one can not sin for the rest of their lives once they're Christians correct? I do not hold this view. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 Butero, I think this quote says a lot: “The gospel of justifying faith means that while Christians are, in themselves still sinful and sinning, yet in Christ, in God’s sight, they are accepted and righteous. So we can say that we are more wicked than we ever dared believe, but more loved and accepted in Christ than we ever dared hope — at the very same time. This creates a radical new dynamic for personal growth. It means that the more you see your own flaws and sins, the more precious, electrifying, and amazing God’s grace appears to you. But on the other hand, the more aware you are of God’s grace and acceptance in Christ, the more able you are to drop your denials and self-defenses and admit the true dimensions and character of your sin.” -Timothy Keller I don't agree with this. I don't believe that Christians can continue to be in wilful sin and be accepted and righteous in God's sight. I know we all make mistakes, and I don't believe mistakes will cause us to lose our salvation, but I don't believe we can continue in wilful sin and remain accepted by God. I don't think Tim Keller is talking about willful sin. He's talking about sinning daily/weekly as this is inevitable even as a Christian. Of course, as I recall you believe that one can not sin for the rest of their lives once they're Christians correct? I do not hold this view. God bless, GE I don't believe a Christian can commit wilful sins and remain saved. I will give you two examples of two differen't kinds of sins. 1. A married man sees an attractive woman, and she flirts with him. He is tempted to commit adultery. He can either tell her he is married and walk away or he can commit adultery with her? Nobody makes him commit sin, If he cheats, it is his choice alone. No Christian has to commit adultery from time to time, choose to resist one day, and give in another day. That wilful sin would cost the man his salvation. 2. A married man sees an attractive woman, and she flirts with him. He has unplanned feelings of lust in his heart. When he realizes he is having sinful lusts, he confesses them and asks God's forgiveness. This is a sin, but it is not pre-meditated, and it goes no further. He doesn't actually cheat on his wife. People will find themselves falling short of God's glory from time to time, but we never have to commit a wilful sin, and God doesn't overlook it when we do commit a wilful sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted June 29, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 From the same book of Galatians: Galatians 5:19-21 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkeness, revelings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things, shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is absolute proof that those who claim that Christian freedom is the freedom to live lawless are in error. If that message were true, you could do all these things and still keep your inheritance in the Kingdom of God. The reason why you are free from the law when you walk in the Spirit, is because the Spirit will lead you to live in a way where you don't violate the law. You will bear fruit. The same passage goes on to say... 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance, against such there is no law. If you move back to verse 18, it says... 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, yea re not under the law. This is not complicated, but those who are preaching the false message that Christian freedom means we are ok even if we continue in sin refuse to see. Nobody needs freedom to sin. We all had that ability before we got saved. We need freedom to break the bondgage of sin in our lives. You asked if I had anything else to add concerning the passage. I think I was pretty thorough here. I also believe that having read your quote concerning how Christians continue to sin, but they are supposedly still righteous in the sight of God shows that I did understand what you were preaching. I don't agree with that doctrinal viewpoint. Galatians 5:19-21 says that people that continue in sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If they were righteous in the sight of God, they would inherit the Kingdom of God. Again I don't hold the view that once a Christian calls on the name of the Lord, repents, accepts Jesus as their Savior & Lord that they can live a 100% sinless life. I'm not talking about habitual sin. Perhaps they get stressed and have the wrong attitude. I'm talking about loosing your temper because of what went on at work that day and taking it out on the ones you love. Or thinking evil thoughts towards a person. And so forth. These things people do on occasion without intending too. Perhaps one screams or simply thinks "You idiot" as a fellow car when they cut you off while speeding, no blinker, with your child in the backseat... Matt. 5:22 But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell. Maybe I'm the only one who struggles with such things. Thankfully if we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all wickedness. 1 John 1:9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 From the same book of Galatians: Galatians 5:19-21 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkeness, revelings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things, shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is absolute proof that those who claim that Christian freedom is the freedom to live lawless are in error. If that message were true, you could do all these things and still keep your inheritance in the Kingdom of God. The reason why you are free from the law when you walk in the Spirit, is because the Spirit will lead you to live in a way where you don't violate the law. You will bear fruit. The same passage goes on to say... 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance, against such there is no law. If you move back to verse 18, it says... 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, yea re not under the law. This is not complicated, but those who are preaching the false message that Christian freedom means we are ok even if we continue in sin refuse to see. Nobody needs freedom to sin. We all had that ability before we got saved. We need freedom to break the bondgage of sin in our lives. You asked if I had anything else to add concerning the passage. I think I was pretty thorough here. I also believe that having read your quote concerning how Christians continue to sin, but they are supposedly still righteous in the sight of God shows that I did understand what you were preaching. I don't agree with that doctrinal viewpoint. Galatians 5:19-21 says that people that continue in sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If they were righteous in the sight of God, they would inherit the Kingdom of God. Again I don't hold the view that once a Christian calls on the name of the Lord, repents, accepts Jesus as their Savior & Lord that they can live a 100% sinless life. I'm not talking about habitual sin. Perhaps they get stressed and have the wrong attitude. I'm talking about loosing your temper because of what went on at work that day and taking it out on the ones you love. Or thinking evil thoughts towards a person. And so forth. These things people do on occasion without intending too. Perhaps one screams or simply thinks "You idiot" as a fellow car when they cut you off while speeding, no blinker, with your child in the backseat... Matt. 5:22 But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell. Maybe I'm the only one who struggles with such things. God bless, GE I already gave you an example of the difference between a wilful sin and one done through ignorance. You are describing something that was not pre-planned. That is not a wilful sin. Let me give another example, based on what you just said. 1. A person gets angry, and calls someone a fool. No thought went into this, and when God brings it to his or her attention, the Christian repents. This is not a wilful sin. A person doesn't lose their salvation over something like this. 2. A person gets angry, and calls someone a fool. After doing so, he plans to get revenge towards this person, and kills them. This is a pre-meditated, wilful sin, and it will cost the offender their salvation. Both of these things are sins, but they were not both done intentionally. One is an example of being human. One is an example of knowing right from wrong, and making a wilful choice to do wrong, even knowing how God feels about it. You may not agree with me, but that is my position, and what I believe the Bible teaches. I can give many scriptures to back up the fact a person who continues to commit certain sins won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, and scripture to show a true Christian doesn't sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted June 29, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 Thankfully if we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all wickedness. 1 John 1:9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 Thankfully if we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all wickedness. 1 John 1:9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. I agree 100 percent with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted June 29, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 I already gave you an example of the difference between a wilful sin and one done through ignorance. You are describing something that was not pre-planned. That is not a willful sin. Let me give another example, based on what you just said. 1. A person gets angry, and calls someone a fool. No thought went into this, and when God brings it to his or her attention, the Christian repents. This is not a willful sin. A person doesn't lose their salvation over something like this. 2. A person gets angry, and calls someone a fool. After doing so, he plans to get revenge towards this person, and kills them. This is a pee-meditated, willful sin, and it will cost the offender their salvation. Both of these things are sins, but they were not both done intentionally. One is an example of being human. One is an example of knowing right from wrong, and making a willful choice to do wrong, even knowing how God feels about it. You may not agree with me, but that is my position, and what I believe the Bible teaches. I can give many scriptures to back up the fact a person who continues to commit certain sins won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, and scripture to show a true Christian doesn't sin. Perhaps it's semantics then? I agree one who is lives in continual, habitual sin... That person may not be saved. Is this what you mean in red? Yet even in the second scenario you mentioned there is God's grace. A murderer may be caught, end up in prison for life or death row, may repent, and may be saved still. John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 1 John 5:18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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