Defending Jesus OT Style

[Sanh]

 

 

While the Jewish writings do have Rabbinical debates concerning the Messiah where various views are posted, very few Jewish people have heard of Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David. That actually comes from mystical Judaism which is not known by probably 80% of all Jewish people.

 

Also probably only about 70% of the Jewish people have read the Talmud, which is the first book outside of the OT which is studied.

 

While I respect Michael Brown and often recommend him, sometimes his views are geared more towards Rabbis and anti-missionaries, and his books provide a wide range of information, it is not necessarily useful in all witnessing situations. 

 

The NT is actually written by Jewish people from a Jewish view. Since the NT is a testimony of Who Jesus is and what He did, it must be used when witnessing, and then perhaps go back to the OT/Tenakh if there are questions as to the differences.  Generally, almost no Jewish people or extremely few have ever read the NT, so know extremely little about Jesus. 

 

 

Jewish people is right in saying there is only one God since God is only one. The only issue for the Jewish people is to accept or not to accept the son/man brought forth by Mary and known to them in the name of Jesus as the Messiah and, much worse, equal to the Lord God. In truth and in fact, the son/man per se brought forth by Mary is a flesh and a vessel by God in communicating to and living with the people then. That son/man is not a part of Godhood but just a speaker phone of God in talking with the people during the apostles time. Jesus and other names of God were just linked to that son/man simply because God dwelt inside that time during those times

Edited August 13, 2013 by Sanh

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

While the Jewish writings do have Rabbinical debates concerning the Messiah where various views are posted, very few Jewish people have heard of Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David. That actually comes from mystical Judaism which is not known by probably 80% of all Jewish people.

 

Also probably only about 70% of the Jewish people have read the Talmud, which is the first book outside of the OT which is studied.

 

While I respect Michael Brown and often recommend him, sometimes his views are geared more towards Rabbis and anti-missionaries, and his books provide a wide range of information, it is not necessarily useful in all witnessing situations. 

 

The NT is actually written by Jewish people from a Jewish view. Since the NT is a testimony of Who Jesus is and what He did, it must be used when witnessing, and then perhaps go back to the OT/Tenakh if there are questions as to the differences.  Generally, almost no Jewish people or extremely few have ever read the NT, so know extremely little about Jesus. 

 

 

Jewish people is right in saying there is only one God since God is only one. The only issue for the Jewish people is to accept or not to accept the son/man brought forth by Mary and known to them in the name of Jesus as the Messiah and, much worse, equal to the Lord God. In truth and in fact, the son/man per se brought forth by Mary is a flesh and a vessel by God in communicating to and living with the people then. That son/man is not a part of Godhood but just a speaker phone of God in talking with the people during the apostles time. Jesus and other names of God were just linked to that son/man simply because God dwelt inside that time during those times

 

 

There is only One True God, but the nature of God is triune.

 

In the NT, Jesus said many things which meant that He was calling Himself God. The Jewish leadership objected strongly as they did not believe a man could be God. So, we have Jesus saying that He is God and we have the Jewish leadership calling that statement blasphemous. Was Jesus saying blasphemy, or is Jesus God?

 

John 1:14

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

So, what does it mean, the Word became flesh.

 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

² The same was in the beginning with God.

³ All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

⁴ In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

⁵ And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

In the Judaism of Jesus day, they did not usually say the most holy Name of God. Plus, Judaism believes God is not a part of His creation, and is ephemeral, with no form. God is not created and has no form, so can not enter or directly interact with the physical created world. So, there was a Jewish writing which used a term 'Memra' whenever scripture talked about God interacting with the physical world. Memra is an Aramaic word which literally means 'Word'. Memra/Word was used in this writings wherever God manifested on earth. The Word of God.

 

John 1 uses this known terminology. The term Word/Memra is used when referencing the act of creation, so John is saying the Word, Gods manifestation on the earth who created the earth, became flesh and dwelt among us. This was in reference to Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God, or the manifestation of God on the earth, in the flesh.

[Guest]

Warnings

(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) Philippians 3:18-19

 

And Sure Hopes

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Philippians 3:20-21

 

~

 

How can you defend the NT when you are not a witness to the things that transpired during those times? Kindly ignore the second one about God is not man since my only point there is the statement "God is spirit."

 

~

 

Ones Who Were There

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

 

Testify To Who Jesus Is

But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

 

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

 

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:24-28

 

And We Worship God In Spirit

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

 

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:21-26

 

And In Truth

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

 

You

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: John 11:25

 

See

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:5

 

~

 

Believe

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

And Be Blessed Beloved

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8

 

Be Very Blessed

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:25-27

 

Love, Joe

[Enoc]

Two points:

 

(1) Why do you feel the need to defend the Gospel? What is your motivation, perhaps to change his/her mind? Fortunately it's not a mind issue but a heart issue.

 

(2) Maybe GOD has allowed this to come into your sphere to test you on your own beliefs, and understanding.

 

The answers you seek are in the word/bible, and  time spent in the word will bring you to the point of being able to discern when you are casting pearls among the swine.

 

That does not preclude you from obtaining from other Christians their point of view, but until you receive the understanding, you will only be speaking from your mind/flesh and not from your spirit.

 

There is a profound difference.

[Qnts2]

Two points:

 

(1) Why do you feel the need to defend the Gospel? What is your motivation, perhaps to change his/her mind? Fortunately it's not a mind issue but a heart issue.

 

(2) Maybe GOD has allowed this to come into your sphere to test you on your own beliefs, and understanding.

 

The answers you seek are in the word/bible, and  time spent in the word will bring you to the point of being able to discern when you are casting pearls among the swine.

 

That does not preclude you from obtaining from other Christians their point of view, but until you receive the understanding, you will only be speaking from your mind/flesh and not from your spirit.

 

There is a profound difference.

 

Looking at this from an OT perspective.

 

Whenever something was to be formally judged as to whether it was true or not, it required 2 or 3 witnesses.The Apostles, when looking for a 12th after Judas's death, the requirement was the 12th person had to have been a witness of Jesus.

 

Since the question was, is Jesus the promised Messiah, to declare that Jesus is the Messiah required witnesses of Who He was, and what He did. Since the OT contains prophesies of about the Messiah, including His linage, and what He would do, written down hundreds of years before Jesus time, the witnesses had to testify of Who Jesus is and what He did, which would then be compared to the Messianic prophesies in the OT. If Jesus did not have the right linage as prophesied, then Jesus could not be the promised Messiah. The linage of Jesus is contained in Matthew and Luke. Many of the Messianic prophesies are repeated in the NT along side what Jesus did.

 

Essentially, we have 4 people who wrote down what they saw/witnessed and heard, so we have 4 witnesses testifying of Who Jesus is and what He did, to show the Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in the OT. We call these testimonies of witnesses the gospels.   To fulfill the prophesies and the Mosaic law to establish that Jesus really is the Messiah, the gospels must be verified as true witnesses. But, salvation is by revelation of this truth.    

[Enoc]

Qnts

 

I'm not sure I understand the point you are making. 

 

I thought the witness of 2 or 3 was related to the following scripture:

 

1 John 5:8

New King James Version (NKJV)

8 And there are three that bear witness on earth:[a] the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

[Sanh]

 

 But, salvation is by revelation of this truth.    

 

 

Just a little bit of clarification:

 

Salvation is by coming to Jesus and putting our faith in HIM and to all the things He will tell us to do today, isn't it?  How can revelation of the truth in the gospel be salvation? The gospel of Jesus is a recorded events that transpired during the Lord's incarnation time, what is to be revealed there today when it is already written?

[Widor1]

Two points:

 

(1) Why do you feel the need to defend the Gospel? What is your motivation, perhaps to change his/her mind? Fortunately it's not a mind issue but a heart issue.

 

(2) Maybe GOD has allowed this to come into your sphere to test you on your own beliefs, and understanding.

 

The answers you seek are in the word/bible, and  time spent in the word will bring you to the point of being able to discern when you are casting pearls among the swine.

 

That does not preclude you from obtaining from other Christians their point of view, but until you receive the understanding, you will only be speaking from your mind/flesh and not from your spirit.

 

There is a profound difference.

 

(1) I feel the need to defend the Gospel because: 1Pe 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear. I don't plan on changing anyone's mind or heart; I can't! I believe that the Spirit can work through me though, and He will do the changing. 

 

(2) True.  I admit that I have not read all of the Old Testament. I started this thread because I do not know all of the Old Testament prophecies about Jesus or where they are, and was honestly taken aback when this person (my brother) wrote this to me, since usually when we talk about God and Jesus he spends most of the conversation blaspheming. I am well aware that I need to read my bible more (who doesn't?), and I just wanted some help from other Christians who might have dealt with a similar situation, or who could help point me in the right direction in the bible on where to continue my study. 

 

My family has never read the New Testament, and they don't care to. To them, Jesus is just a "good teacher." They do not consider the New Testament to be divinely inspired by God, to my knowledge. They have very literally closed their eyes and ears to the truth. It is very concerning for me. I do have faith that God can and will change their hearts... as well as my own. I think you make a good point about understanding and discerning the Word. That is something that I will pray for more fervently.

 

Mat 19:26  But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." 

Edited August 15, 2013 by Widor1

[Guest]

Why do you feel the need to defend the Gospel? What is your motivation, perhaps to change his/her mind? Fortunately it's not a mind issue but a heart issue.

 

~

 

Cause

 

What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. Matthew 10:27

 

See?

 

He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. Luke 11:23

 

Or No....

 

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 1 Peter 3:15

[Enoc]

 

Two points:

 

(1) Why do you feel the need to defend the Gospel? What is your motivation, perhaps to change his/her mind? Fortunately it's not a mind issue but a heart issue.

 

(2) Maybe GOD has allowed this to come into your sphere to test you on your own beliefs, and understanding.

 

The answers you seek are in the word/bible, and  time spent in the word will bring you to the point of being able to discern when you are casting pearls among the swine.

 

That does not preclude you from obtaining from other Christians their point of view, but until you receive the understanding, you will only be speaking from your mind/flesh and not from your spirit.

 

There is a profound difference.

 

(1) I feel the need to defend the Gospel because: 1Pe 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear. I don't plan on changing anyone's mind or heart; I can't! I believe that the Spirit can work through me though, and He will do the changing. 

 

(2) True.  I admit that I have not read all of the Old Testament. I started this thread because I do not know all of the Old Testament prophecies about Jesus or where they are, and was honestly taken aback when this person (my brother) wrote this to me, since usually when we talk about God and Jesus he spends most of the conversation blaspheming. I am well aware that I need to read my bible more (who doesn't?), and I just wanted some help from other Christians who might have dealt with a similar situation, or who could help point me in the right direction in the bible on where to continue my study. 

 

My family has never read the New Testament, and they don't care to. To them, Jesus is just a "good teacher." They do not consider the New Testament to be divinely inspired by God, to my knowledge. They have very literally closed their eyes and ears to the truth. It is very concerning for me. I do have faith that God can and will change their hearts... as well as my own. I think you make a good point about understanding and discerning the Word. That is something that I will pray for more fervently.

 

Mat 19:26  But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." 

 

 

I gather from you post that your relative was not on offense, but on defense.I could be wrong on that point. However, my take is that your relative has worked themselves in to a place of comfort, a place that requires no commitment or submission. They are their own god.

 

I was in the same position with my brother. I made my self available to answer any questions he would ask, and most times I did't have an answer, but I would bring it to the lord, and every case GOD gave me an answer. That does not mean I understood every answer. After seven years of searching for answers I picked up a scripture or two.

 

The scripture that comes to mind for you is as follows:

 

2 Timothy 2:23 New King James Version (NKJV)

²³ But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.²⁴ And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, ²⁵ in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,²⁶ and  that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

 

​After seven years my brother decided to accept the Lord as his savior. When I asked him why now, his response was that over time he saw that I was telling and living the truth. Plus I never made him feel any less for not accepting Jesus. I think in retrospect that the Lord was working on me while at the same time working on my brother.

 

Blessed is GOD the father and his son our lord Jesus.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Enoc