alphaparticle Posted August 28, 2013 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,363 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 403 Days Won: 5 Joined: 08/01/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 28, 2013 Did nothing create matter, order, life, intelligence and compassion? Or did some higher creative power give rise to what we have before us? If there was a higher power, than who created God? Yeah, this is one thing I've never liked about the cosmological argument for creationism. The standard answer is "God is timeless/eternal", but I've never understood why the universe couldn't also be timeless or eternal. That's an excellent question and depends on the particular cosmological argument being run. If you have a Leibnizian style one, the argument leads to God being necessary and the universe being contingent. Contingent things have explanations for their existing, necessary things don't (by definition of those terms). I can show you the argument if you are very interested. If you are looking a kalam style one, then it's because there are problems with infinite regresses of events, which God not being an event but a timeless being, would not run into the same problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbyPants Posted August 29, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 166 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/27/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 29, 2013 I guess what I'm saying is, how do we know the universe isn't a timeless entity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted August 29, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,396 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,568 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted August 29, 2013 I guess what I'm saying is, how do we know the universe isn't a timeless entity? Because of it's own witness of itself- entropy. Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbyPants Posted August 29, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 166 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/27/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 29, 2013 I guess what I'm saying is, how do we know the universe isn't a timeless entity? Because of it's own witness of itself- entropy. Love, Steven Yeah, but like I said four posts up: This isn't necessarily true. I've heard a theory that the big bang is something that happens repeatedly, and we are likely on the nth iteration. The idea is that once everything is collapsed down into a singularity after the previous heat death of the universe, this would technically make everything ordered to the maximum degree. Thus, as entropy increases, the next step is for another big bang. Now, two things: I may be seriously misrepresenting some part of that theory as I paraphrase it, and It's just a theory that doesn't have any evidence (that I know of) backing it up. It's more of an intellectual exercise talking about what may have come before and happen after. That being said, I'm not asserting this is the case, but rather pointing out that it's technically possible for the universe to have always existed and for there to have been a big bang (or rather, many of them). There's no proof the universe isn't eternal. Granted, it's a non-falsifiable belief and you can't prove a negative, but it's as solid as the idea that "God must have created everything because he's eternal". That notion, too, relies on accepting that base assumption solely to prove the conclusion correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted August 30, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,396 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,568 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I guess what I'm saying is, how do we know the universe isn't a timeless entity? Because of it's own witness of itself- entropy. Love, Steven Yeah, but like I said four posts up: This isn't necessarily true. I've heard a theory that the big bang is something that happens repeatedly, and we are likely on the nth iteration. The idea is that once everything is collapsed down into a singularity after the previous heat death of the universe, this would technically make everything ordered to the maximum degree. Thus, as entropy increases, the next step is for another big bang. Now, two things: I may be seriously misrepresenting some part of that theory as I paraphrase it, and It's just a theory that doesn't have any evidence (that I know of) backing it up. It's more of an intellectual exercise talking about what may have come before and happen after. That being said, I'm not asserting this is the case, but rather pointing out that it's technically possible for the universe to have always existed and for there to have been a big bang (or rather, many of them). There's no proof the universe isn't eternal. Granted, it's a non-falsifiable belief and you can't prove a negative, but it's as solid as the idea that "God must have created everything because he's eternal". That notion, too, relies on accepting that base assumption solely to prove the conclusion correct. Faith base is the first step in any direction because we are locked upon a time line... however evolution sells a hopeless system and creation sells hope! Once the acceptance of faith in a direction- the rocks are no comfort to evolutionist but I have great comfort in the person of God within me... For my faith has this Heb 11:1-3 11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. NKJV Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbyPants Posted August 30, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 166 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/27/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 30, 2013 Faith base is the first step in any direction because we are locked upon a time line... however evolution sells a hopeless system and creation sells hope! Once the acceptance of faith in a direction- the rocks are no comfort to evolutionist but I have great comfort in the person of God within me... What do you mean that "evolution sells a hopeless system"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted August 30, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,396 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,568 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted August 30, 2013 rotting and decay then death... then nothing because the creator is the created what happens to the one happens to the other! Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbyPants Posted August 30, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 166 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/27/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 30, 2013 rotting and decay then death... then nothing because the creator is the created what happens to the one happens to the other! Love, Steven Two things: 1) Evolution doesn't actually preclude a belief in God; just the two creation stories in Genesis. I know plenty of Christians who believe both in God and evolution. 2) I guess it depends on how you define what it takes to get to heaven. Most Christians I know (and how I was raised) say that you have to accept Jesus to get into heaven. This means, that at a best case, anyone who considers themselves a Christian will get to heaven, and everyone else will go to hell. That's the best case, because there's likely a non-zero number of people who self-identify as Christian, yet haven't accepted Jesus (or properly repented. The exact qualifications vary denomination to denomination). Currently, Christianity is the leading religion in the world. That being said, they only count between 30 and 35% of the population in their numbers. So, for every one person going to heaven, there are around two more going to hell. On one hand, we have a belief system where when we die, we simply stop existing. On the other, we have one where the number of people who experience eternal bliss is half that of those experiencing eternal torment. I'm not sure I'd count evolution as "hopeless". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted August 30, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,396 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,568 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted August 30, 2013 The developed evolution theory is godless.... the children that try to coincide with the theory do so with error. They have to alter God's Word to do so 'after it's kind' in all that was made! So yes a godless system is without hope as all false religions the same. One must study to see the truth but once it is seen the lies are undone. You and I have the understanding that all (because of existence) is began in faith based scenario -therefore faith place upon lies will still be faith but not redeeming faith... we have a belief system where when we die, we simply stop existing Then the love you hold for others is unimportant as only one who is self absorbed and incapable of other centered existence(?) Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbyPants Posted August 31, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 166 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/27/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 31, 2013 we have a belief system where when we die, we simply stop existing Then the love you hold for others is unimportant as only one who is self absorbed and incapable of other centered existence(?) Love, Steven I am unsure how you reached that conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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