The Creationist

[neil_]

  Me personally believing or not believing something doesn't make it so. 

 

I agree. However, that’s not what you previously said: “It doesn't matter what I believe.”

 

 

   Says who? You? Do you have any proof, or is this just an underlying assumption you have to make to come up with an exception?     

 

God is not only an exception, He is THE exception.

 

And yes, that’s faith.

 

 

   Based on what evidence? Again, it seems like an assumption you are making so you can fill in the gaps of the cosmological argument.     

 

Based on:

 

1. faith (in other words, even without any evidence I will still believe that)

2. the logic: any UNIVERSal law can only refer to the UNIVERSe

 

And no, I don’t use God to prove the cosmos, instead I use the cosmos to prove God.

 

You claiming that the entire universe is an accident is not a defendable position.

 

 

   Really? When did I put words in your mouth? Quotes would be nice.     

 

Whenever you misstated my position or misinterpreted what I said and thus you wrongly replied. However, I’m too tired right now to look for examples, so if you think that’s not the case I will simply cave in and apologize. Sincerely.

 

 

  Also, what's with all the hostility? 

 

I apologize for that too. However, answer me this: why are you, an atheist, here, on a Christian forum? What’s your purpose? Because if you’re here to lose other souls, alongside yours, then I’ll take my apologies back.

[RobbyPants]

 

Me personally believing or not believing something doesn't make it so.

 

I agree. However, that’s not what you previously said: “It doesn't matter what I believe.”

 

I'm sorry, I don't see the contradiction. I see me saying "It doesn't matter what I believe." as supporting the idea that my personal belief on a subject has no bearing on whether or not it is true.

If you're looking for a more specific insight into my views of evolution, I can honestly say that I'm not an expert in the field, and my views are somewhat in flux (or at least flexible). I'm willing to let go of any parts that don't hold up to evidence or add new things that do.

 

 

 

Says who? You? Do you have any proof, or is this just an underlying assumption you have to make to come up with an exception?

 

God is not only an exception, He is THE exception.

 

And yes, that’s faith.

 

Fair enough on the faith part, so long as we're on the same page on that. 

 

 

 

Based on what evidence? Again, it seems like an assumption you are making so you can fill in the gaps of the cosmological argument.

 

Based on:

 

1. faith (in other words, even without any evidence I will still believe that)

2. the logic: any UNIVERSal law can only refer to the UNIVERSe

 

So, I'm fine with you assuming God made everything based on faith, so long as you understand that someone lacking that faith won't find any such assumptions compelling. Thus, if half of the cosmological argument is based on faith, I will reject it out of lack of evidence. 

 

 

 

Also, what's with all the hostility?

 

I apologize for that too. However, answer me this: why are you, an atheist, here, on a Christian forum? What’s your purpose? Because if you’re here to lose other souls, alongside yours, then I’ll take my apologies back.

 

Thank you. I showed up here because I was looking for a place that would have a view point that I don't, yet would allow me to post. Some other sites won't allow nonbelievers in their ToS. There is an atheist forum that I post on, which is all well and good, but at times, it seems like a bit of a hug-box where I run into very little outside views. There are a few theists that post there, but they are few and far between.

As for trying to "lose other souls", that's not my intent, nor do I really think that it would work even if it were. When I stopped believing, that was after about two years of me trying to keep believing. That sort of change in a person seldom happens all at once, and almost certainly not due to random posts in an online forum.

[neil_]

Robby, thanks for your honesty.

 

I'm curious though, why did you stop believing?

[RobbyPants]

Robby, thanks for your honesty.

 

I'm curious though, why did you stop believing?

 

You're welcome. I was going to PM you my response, since it's somewhat off topic for the thread, but I don't seem to have the ability to send PMs (or I can't find it). That being said, I'll post a brief answer here:

 

I was raised Christian, and for the first twenty years or so, I never really questioned it. In college, I was exposed to some "hard questions", and for the most part, brushed them off. I wasn't at a point where I could consider a conclusion to an argument that involved God not existing or being drastically different that believed. I got pretty good at coming up with a lot of apologetic answers to the questions, even on my own, for the most part. For some time, coming up with a way to answer or dismiss dissenting viewpoints was comfortable to me.

 

Eventually, something changed, and I can't really say what it was exactly. I know that after a while, the apologetics I so readily used were causing me concern, and not comfort. I don't know why I stopped believing, but eventually, I realized I did. I spent two years trying to get things to make sense, and when that didn't work, trying to just get myself to believe and accept it on faith. Once I got to the point when I realized neither of those things were working, it took me about six more months to admit to myself that I didn't believe anymore.

 

So, I'm sure my answer is even more puzzling than enlightening, when my answer to "why did you stop believing" is essentially "I don't know, I just did, through no lack of effort on my part."

 

[Guest ninhao]

 

 

So, I'm sure my answer is even more puzzling than enlightening, when my answer to "why did you stop believing" is essentially "I don't know, I just did, through no lack of effort on my part."

 

 

 

Hello RobbyPants,

 

Do you still believe Jesus is real.  What I mean is do you believe Jesus is historical or myth ?

[neil_]

  As I explained, one of Hawking's models posits that time itself came into existence at the moment of the big bang.  Thus, there is no "before the big bang", which means in terms of time, the universe "has always existed" (IOW, there was no "time" in which the universe didn't exist).   

 

That logic is flawed. Nothing that has a beginning (and an ending – see the mainstream theories in regard to that) can be eternal, regardless how hard you try to make it look that way.

 

 

 

 

  That's a rather bizarre argument.  Does that also apply to the level of specific religion or denomination?  Can a Protestant "use" Einstein's work? 

 

He shouldn’t - since Einstein in my opinion is wrong…

 

 

 

 

 No, the fallacy of argument via authority would be "The big bang is true because a majority of cosmologists say it is".  I've made no such argument.  

 

Funny - that’s exactly how it is, in the view of most people on Earth (the big bang is true because a majority of cosmologists say it is), whether you made that argument or not.

 

But if you’re not among those people, then why is big bang true for you? I’m looking forward for an answer that has nothing to do with the “majority of cosmologists”.

 

 

 

 

 Who is the "scientific community" if not "the world's professional scientists"?  

 

Would a fellow like Robert Gentry qualify into what you understand by “scientific community”?

Edited September 4, 2013 by GoldenEagle
<<< Edits in red >>>

[neil_]

  In college, I was exposed to some "hard questions", and for the most part, brushed them off.   

 

I wonder what it was that you couldn’t brush off?

 

Regardless, indeed that’s what’s happening in my opinion . People growing into God leave God when they’re at college. Statistics don’t lie. And yet there are people, even on this forum, claiming that evolution is NOT against God…

 

 

 

 

  So, I'm sure my answer is even more puzzling than enlightening   

 

No, it’s not. It’s actually pretty clear in my opinion . And I’ll even make claim that you still believe, only that you don’t realize it anymore.

 

Meanwhile, I would like to help with those questions that troubled you and led you away from God...

[RobbyPants]

Hello RobbyPants,

 

Do you still believe Jesus is real.  What I mean is do you believe Jesus is historical or myth ?

I don't have a good answer on that. I've read some stuff on the Jesus Mythicism campaign, and it was pretty interesting, but I don't remember seeing any sources that would make me accept it outright as fact. I have read some interesting points about evidence you would expect to see if he were real that isn't there, but that's not proof that he wasn't real. I'm certainly willing to accept a fairly strong possibility that he was real.

[Guest ninhao]

 

Hello RobbyPants,

 

Do you still believe Jesus is real.  What I mean is do you believe Jesus is historical or myth ?

I don't have a good answer on that. I've read some stuff on the Jesus Mythicism campaign, and it was pretty interesting, but I don't remember seeing any sources that would make me accept it outright as fact. I have read some interesting points about evidence you would expect to see if he were real that isn't there, but that's not proof that he wasn't real. I'm certainly willing to accept a fairly strong possibility that he was real.

 

 

Ok thank you. Please remember if there is a fairly strong possibility that He was real then there is also a fairly strong possibility that He is what the bible claims. It is definitely difficult to form a strong opinion with the little amount of recorded early ancient history we have. 

[RobbyPants]

 

Ok thank you. Please remember if there is a fairly strong possibility that He was real then there is also a fairly strong possibility that He is what the bible claims. It is definitely difficult to form a strong opinion with the little amount of recorded early ancient history we have. 

 

 

I agree with you on the first part, but not the second. While I see there's a possibility he's the son of God, I wouldn't call it a "strong" possibility, just due to the lack of outside evidence. Do note that the Koran states Jesus to be a prophet, and not the son of God. So if the Bible is a metric of a "strong possibility" that Jesus is the son of God, than the Koran would provide a strong possibility that he was just a prophet.