believing biblical accounts

[Guest ninhao]

 

Lets just get to the bottom of this whole thing.Do you believe what the Holy Bible says?

 

I think Alpha is attempting to provide reasoning material for people who don't accept the Bible record of Jesus as historical fact.

[RobbyPants]

My assertion is this, it's possible to build a case for the resurrection of Jesus without first assuming that the Bible has supernatural authority, or without believing in God at all. It's basically a development of the "if the disciples didn't really see and talk to the resurrected Jesus, why would they sacrifice their lives to the cause?" type of consideration. Hopefully that provides a bit of clarification.

Well, just looking at modern history, we have numerous examples of Islamic extremists sacrificing their lives for something they believe to be true, and people drinking poisoned Kook Aid at Jonestown. I wouldn't consider an Islamic extremist to be evidence of Allah, but rather of a fanatical devotion to Islam. People being willing to sacrifice their lives only proves that they believe they are right, not that they actually are right.

[Mcgyver]

 

My assertion is this, it's possible to build a case for the resurrection of Jesus without first assuming that the Bible has supernatural authority, or without believing in God at all. It's basically a development of the "if the disciples didn't really see and talk to the resurrected Jesus, why would they sacrifice their lives to the cause?" type of consideration. Hopefully that provides a bit of clarification.

Well, just looking at modern history, we have numerous examples of Islamic extremists sacrificing their lives for something they believe to be true, and people drinking poisoned Kook Aid at Jonestown. I wouldn't consider an Islamic extremist to be evidence of Allah, but rather of a fanatical devotion to Islam. People being willing to sacrifice their lives only proves that they believe they are right, not that they actually are right.

 

 

But there is an important, and fundamental difference that can't IMO be ignored, to wit:

 

Men will die for what they believe to be true (even if later it is shown to be a lie), however men will not willingly give their lives for that which they know is a lie.

 

The Apostles (with the exception of John) were martyred for the testimony that they were personal eye-witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus, and would not recant...an important point, I believe.

[RobbyPants]

But there is an important, and fundamental difference that can't IMO be ignored, to wit:

 

Men will die for what they believe to be true (even if later it is shown to be a lie), however men will not willingly give their lives for that which they know is a lie.

 

The Apostles (with the exception of John) were martyred for the testimony that they were personal eye-witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus, and would not recant...an important point, I believe.

I definitely agree with you, that if they were eye witnesses, that they would know it's not a lie. I suppose you could try and make the case that they might give their lives for a lie if they thought there was a good reason, but I'm not going to try and make that case.

That being said, this works if you assume the Bible is true in this regard. Certainly, if we are operating under the assumption that what the Bible says is true, then it would automatically point to a resurrected Christ. I'm not sure whether or not those assumptions count as treating the Bible as a "supernatural authority", something Alpha wanted to avoid for his arguments.

Alpha,

What parts of the New Testament are you accepting as fact for purposes of this thread, and which parts are you trying to find support for? I may be hugely misunderstanding your approach, here. 

[alphaparticle]

 

 

Lets just get to the bottom of this whole thing.Do you believe what the Holy Bible says?

 

I think Alpha is attempting to provide reasoning material for people who don't accept the Bible record of Jesus as historical fact.

 

Right, precisely. Thanks. I think I need to work on presentation here.

[alphaparticle]

 

But there is an important, and fundamental difference that can't IMO be ignored, to wit:

 

Men will die for what they believe to be true (even if later it is shown to be a lie), however men will not willingly give their lives for that which they know is a lie.

 

The Apostles (with the exception of John) were martyred for the testimony that they were personal eye-witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus, and would not recant...an important point, I believe.

I definitely agree with you, that if they were eye witnesses, that they would know it's not a lie. I suppose you could try and make the case that they might give their lives for a lie if they thought there was a good reason, but I'm not going to try and make that case.

That being said, this works if you assume the Bible is true in this regard. Certainly, if we are operating under the assumption that what the Bible says is true, then it would automatically point to a resurrected Christ. I'm not sure whether or not those assumptions count as treating the Bible as a "supernatural authority", something Alpha wanted to avoid for his arguments.

Alpha,

What parts of the New Testament are you accepting as fact for purposes of this thread, and which parts are you trying to find support for? I may be hugely misunderstanding your approach, here. 

 

Mcgyver said what I would have said initially, so I won't respond to your previous point (nicely put Mcgyver).

 

So here's what I want to do. I want to use sources in the Bible as NT historians do. It may be easiest to look at one example so you see what I'm getting at.

 

The first source I want to look at includes Paul's writings, in part because they are understood by NT scholars to be the earliest, so at the very least we can get a glimpse at what the earliest Christians thought about things. Actually Paul quotes a tradition even earlier than himself in his letter to the Corinthians, here:

 

1 corinthians 15:3-8 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

 

So we can gather from this that the early community of Christians, by the time that Paul wrote this letter, believed that Jesus died, was buried, and raised on the third day (very specific) and they believed that Jesus *appeared* to Cephas/Peter, and then to the 12 apostles. They also believe that He appeared to a large group-- many who are still alive at the time of Paul's writings. Then Paul talks about Jesus appearing to him. Now all I can say is this is what the early Christian community believed. But, they believed rather strong claims, and in fact, Paul goes on in other letters to talk about Paul himself has met Peter and other disciples of Jesus, the very ones he is saying here have known Jesus to die, be buried and then *appear* to them. Now these people belonged to a rather unpopular group, and did so presumably based on these experiences. So here is one historical witness to Jesus' life, and the early beliefs of Christians about Him-- Christians who were alive during the ministry of Jesus.

[Wrldtraveller]

There is also a well known greek historian named Josephus who did research on Jesus's life and if He was real. Josephus concluded that Jesus was in fact a real person and He had a huge impact in the people and government.  

Not only that, there are 24 thousand documents (outside of the Bible) all proving the existence of Jesus Christ.

Throughout history, Jesus's teaching had a huge impact on various governments, churches, countries, that still happen now.

One author I read had a big impact on myself "Foxes book of martyrs"  The author decided to compile a book full of testimonies of all the martyrs who died for Jesus Christ and all the events leading to those deaths.  If Jesus Christ was not real, then why would those people go willingly to their death, unless they truly believed that Jesus Christ were real and am alive.

W