Slippery Slope Posted November 30, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/19/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/24/1965 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Where is there anything in there about a theocracy? It simply states that government (NOT specific goverments) is ordained by God for our good and safety. It simply says Christians owe the government obedience to the laws of the land when those laws are not contrary to the Word of God. Nothing in what I posted says that the church should run the state. So, I don't know where you got the whole "theocracy" thing. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 6th Commandment; Verse 13: "Thou shalt not kill." or drop bombs on innocent people in order to remove their leader from power... 10th Commandment; Verse 17 "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." including his oil How did Bush get re-elected without the Christian vote? Still waiting -SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneAccord Posted November 30, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 147 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,587 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted November 30, 2004 Nothing contradictory at all. It does not say "All governments are ordained by God." Rather, it is making a general affirmation about the concept of government. Government is necessary to maintain order and safety. Without laws people would have nothing to keep them from imposing murder, theft, rape, etc. without due recompense. It is not a stamp of approval on all governments. Wow, Shiloh! Interesting post! It seems whenever someone questions the Bush regime, this scripture is automatically pulled out to refute the idea that we have a right to question our government's doings. You can just imagine how many times I've had Romans 13 pulled on me. Now you are saying that not all governments have a stamp of approval, so who's authority is it to decide which ones are worthy and which ones aren't? You're on some slippery ground here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted November 30, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.93 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Dear One Accord, Why the "government" hang-up? Are there not more important things to Christianity to be focused on than political debates all the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneAccord Posted November 30, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 147 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,587 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted November 30, 2004 My concern is that the Religious Right is becoming a political entity and influencing a great deal of mainstream Christianity. I feel like a lot of their political agenda is not in line with Jesus' teachings, it is spreading through the pulpits of America as we saw in the recent election. Questioning the fellowship between the 'church' and the government brings some interesting reactions from American Christians who think Bush is God's gift to the world. In order to be politically correct you have to be religiously correct these days. I think the American church is fast becoming the whore that rides the beast in Revelation, and there is a lot of deception going on and it's important for people to have their eyes open so they don't partake of her sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Nothing contradictory at all. It does not say "All governments are ordained by God." Rather, it is making a general affirmation about the concept of government. Government is necessary to maintain order and safety. Without laws people would have nothing to keep them from imposing murder, theft, rape, etc. without due recompense. It is not a stamp of approval on all governments. Wow, Shiloh! Interesting post! It seems whenever someone questions the Bush regime, this scripture is automatically pulled out to refute the idea that we have a right to question our government's doings. You can just imagine how many times I've had Romans 13 pulled on me. Now you are saying that not all governments have a stamp of approval, so who's authority is it to decide which ones are worthy and which ones aren't? You're on some slippery ground here. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, OneAccord, I am not. I can go to the Word of God, and from the principles it contains, I can pretty accurately deduce from there. No government is perfect, they all have flaws, because they are run by flawed people. If you think the Bush government is bad, try out the governments in Cuba, or Uganda, or Tibet. Do you think you would enjoy those more than living in the US? Go live in Saudi Arabia and see how long you are allowed to speak your mind as a woman and still have your head intact. Even on a bad day, we have it better than almost anywhere you can think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slippery Slope Posted December 1, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/19/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/24/1965 Share Posted December 1, 2004 No, OneAccord, I am not. I can go to the Word of God, and from the principles it contains, I can pretty accurately deduce from there. No government is perfect, they all have flaws, because they are run by flawed people. If you think the Bush government is bad, try out the governments in Cuba, or Uganda, or Tibet. Do you think you would enjoy those more than living in the US? Go live in Saudi Arabia and see how long you are allowed to speak your mind as a woman and still have your head intact. Even on a bad day, we have it better than almost anywhere you can think of. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What a cop-out... what other governments or countries are like has nothing to do with Christian support for Bush/Cheney nor anything to do with OneAccords reply. But this thread was not about politics in the first place and I should not have brought it up here because religion and politics are separate. My bad. Still waiting -SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M45510G1C Posted December 1, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 85 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 627 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 1, 2004 (edited) What is sin? Well put, Neb. Sin is, simply put, the absence of moral perfection. Nothing contradictory at all. It does not say "All governments are ordained by God." Rather, it is making a general affirmation about the concept of government. Thanks for the clarification, on that I agree. I think many misinterpet this passage, but you seem to have, at least in my opinion, gotten it. Edited December 1, 2004 by M45510G1C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneAccord Posted December 1, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 147 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,587 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 1, 2004 The original intent of this thread was to give an outline of what a good, solid, bible-believing Christian should believe, and therefore adjust his/her worldview to accordingly. A Christian worldview, or any worldview for that matter, will definitely affect your views on politics, religion, family, morality, our origins and destinations, and pretty much everything else. Therefore it's not surprising to see the thread go all over the place. The OP list of basic beliefs is a pretty good picture of mainstream fundamentalist Christian beliefs, but there are infinite variations on these beliefs among those that love and serve Jesus, therefore there are infinite worldviews. Therefore we argue and disagree and have long juicy discussions about everything under the sun, but in the end we do all believe in and love Jesus, and that's what counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slippery Slope Posted December 2, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/19/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/24/1965 Share Posted December 2, 2004 According to OneAccord and a moderator, the political portion of this topic is suitable. So, let's continue... 6th Commandment; Verse 13: "Thou shalt not kill." or drop bombs on innocent people in order to remove their leader from power... 10th Commandment; Verse 17 "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." including his oil How did Bush get re-elected without the Christian vote? Still waiting -SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 2, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.93 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 2, 2004 SS- The Hebrew word fo "kill" used in the 10 Commandments for, "Thou shalt not kill" is xcr (pronounced "Ratsach"), which means: To murder, slay, kill = (Qal) to murder, slay 1. premeditated 2. accidental 3. as avenger 4. slayer (intentional) (participle) = (Niphal) to be slain = (Piel) * to murder, assassinate * murderer, assassin (participle)(subst) = (Pual) to be killed Other uses of this word are found in these verses: Nu 35:30 - Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die. Nu 35:31 - Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death. Jer 7:9 - Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not; You can look up more if you would like: Source This is different from the 12 other words translated as "kill" - each used in a different context, and thus a different association. You can see them here Examples of meaning: - to slaughter, kill, sacrifice, slaughter for sacrifice - slain, fatally wounded, pierced - to slaughter, slay, butcher, kill ruthlessly - to die, kill, have one executed You'd have to read the context of the passage to understand why the use of different terms. With that in mind . . . Some time after the Lord gave the 10 Commandments, including the, "Though shalt not kill" command, He commanded the Israelites to slay the inhabitants of Canaan. So, we have a little paradox here: How can He say, "Though shalt not kill," but then say, "Kill them"? Either: 1) Something is wrong with the Bible 2) Something is wrong with the God of the Bible or 3) The Lord is separating out tupes of killing - thus what we know as "first degree murder" is what is referred to in the Commandment, and other types of killings (i.e. in battle) fall under a different guideline. Until you can rectify this answer, there is no point arguing about what is "righteous" or "unrighteous" concerning the Iraq situation you asked about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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