Can you answer this question?

[Guest hubertdorm]

Imporantance varies throughtout the many paths of the faith Joe. You believe the way it is done is highly significant. I hold more that the practice itself is very significant. Then there are those on this board that think it really is nothing except good. The last is basically, "Jesus did it so we should too!"

While I must say we should follow the actions and love of our Lord, this cannot be the only reason to be baptized. It allows for no understanding of what the purpose is. While we are admonished to follow Christ fully with no doubt even when we do not understand, the vision of the Holy Spirit, the wisdom of God allows us to understand. Jesus never implied, "Be baptized because I was baptized."

[Joe@actsii]

Imporantance varies throughtout the many paths of the faith Joe. You believe the way it is done is highly significant. I hold more that the practice itself is very significant. Then there are those on this board that think it really is nothing except good. The last is basically, "Jesus did it so we should too!"

While I must say we should follow the actions and love of our Lord, this cannot be the only reason to be baptized. It allows for no understanding of what the purpose is. While we are admonished to follow Christ fully with no doubt even when we do not understand, the vision of the Holy Spirit, the wisdom of God allows us to understand. Jesus never implied, "Be baptized because I was baptized."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do not believe in "many paths". That is the problem. A lot of people approch the Bible like it is a do it your kit. What ever you get out of it is OK. I don't do it because Jesus did it, I was baptized because that is what the Word of God teaches. And how or what we do is very important. To many christians and church's do things the way they want to. If the Bible says to do something a certain way, then I think we need to obey the words of our Lord.

37

[Sola Scriptora]

Hey joe,

Are only those who speak in tongues saved? Is tongues PROOF of salvation? Are all Trinitarians DAMNED because they don't believe on modalism? Yes or no answers please, lets get right down to the point.

Oh yes, and also, do I have to be baptized by UPC people for my baptism to be valid? And if I was immersed in the Trinitarian formula, is my baptism and my "salvation" invalid? And am I therefore still in my sins and DAMNED. Yes or no.

Edited January 22, 2005 by Sola Scriptora

[Guest firefromheaven]

Imporantance varies throughtout the many paths of the faith Joe. You believe the way it is done is highly significant. I hold more that the practice itself is very significant. Then there are those on this board that think it really is nothing except good. The last is basically, "Jesus did it so we should too!"

While I must say we should follow the actions and love of our Lord, this cannot be the only reason to be baptized. It allows for no understanding of what the purpose is. While we are admonished to follow Christ fully with no doubt even when we do not understand, the vision of the Holy Spirit, the wisdom of God allows us to understand. Jesus never implied, "Be baptized because I was baptized."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do not believe in "many paths". That is the problem. A lot of people approch the Bible like it is a do it your kit. What ever you get out of it is OK. I don't do it because Jesus did it, I was baptized because that is what the Word of God teaches. And how or what we do is very important. To many christians and church's do things the way they want to. If the Bible says to do something a certain way, then I think we need to obey the words of our Lord.

37

[Joe@actsii]

Imporantance varies throughtout the many paths of the faith Joe. You believe the way it is done is highly significant. I hold more that the practice itself is very significant. Then there are those on this board that think it really is nothing except good. The last is basically, "Jesus did it so we should too!"

While I must say we should follow the actions and love of our Lord, this cannot be the only reason to be baptized. It allows for no understanding of what the purpose is. While we are admonished to follow Christ fully with no doubt even when we do not understand, the vision of the Holy Spirit, the wisdom of God allows us to understand. Jesus never implied, "Be baptized because I was baptized."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do not believe in "many paths". That is the problem. A lot of people approach the Bible like it is a do it your kit. What ever you get out of it is OK. I don't do it because Jesus did it, I was baptized because that is what the Word of God teaches. And how or what we do is very important. To many christians and church's do things the way they want to. If the Bible says to do something a certain way, then I think we need to obey the words of our Lord.

37

[essaias]

Hey joe,

Are only those who speak in tongues saved?  Is tongues PROOF of salvation?  Are all Trinitarians DAMNED because they don't believe on modalism?  Yes or no answers please, lets get right down to the point.

Oh yes, and also, do I have to be baptized by UPC people for my baptism to be valid?  And if I was immersed in the Trinitarian formula, is my baptism and my "salvation" invalid?  And am I therefore still in my sins and DAMNED.  Yes or no.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Allow me to answer, sola scriptura.

1. Are only those who speak in tongues saved? Only those who have the Holy Spirit are saved. And only those who receive the Holy spirit have the Holy Spirit. And only those who are baptised with the Holy Spirit have received the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit baptism produces the phenomena of "speaking with tongues".

2. Is tongues PROOF of salvation? No. The only PROOF of salvation available to a third party observer would be the Resurrection.

3. Are all trinitarians damned because they don;t believe on modalism? Oneness is not modalism, you err there. So, nobody is "damned because they don;t believe on modalism".

These are not questions that can be answered with a yes or no, because these ar equestions that have to take certain things into account.

You would like to hear that we believe all trinitarians are damned. The fact is, all humanity is damned except those saved by the grace of God. That grace makes salvation and eternal life available to us. Salvation and eternal life require new birth. New birth according to Jesus is of "water and spirit". Peter said "baptism saves us". Any gospel preaching that makes statements contrary to the statements of the Bible is a false gospel that does not save anyone.

There is one God. The man Christ Jesus IS GOD. The Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. There is only one name whereby we must be saved.

The Bible never says there is a "trinity". Now does it say "God is three" anythings. There is no "God the Son" or "God the Spirit" in the bible. There is no "accept Jesus as yoru saviour" or "sinner's prayer" in Scripture. There is no "ineffable mystery of the godhead existing in three person" in Scripture.

There is however the teachings of the apostles. We need not add to it or take away from it.

It is good to look in th ebible and read about your religion there. It is good to believe and confess only those things stated in scripture. It is good to never have to worry about having to explain away verses.

It is good to just believe what is written, and leave the philosophising to the worldly-wise whom God takes in their own conceits.

It is good to seek God.

peace-

[Joe@actsii]

Thanks Essaias, it is a great blessing from God to have friends.

I pray that I can also be such a blessing to you.

[Guest hubertdorm]

Imporantance varies throughtout the many paths of the faith Joe. You believe the way it is done is highly significant. I hold more that the practice itself is very significant. Then there are those on this board that think it really is nothing except good. The last is basically, "Jesus did it so we should too!"

While I must say we should follow the actions and love of our Lord, this cannot be the only reason to be baptized. It allows for no understanding of what the purpose is. While we are admonished to follow Christ fully with no doubt even when we do not understand, the vision of the Holy Spirit, the wisdom of God allows us to understand. Jesus never implied, "Be baptized because I was baptized."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do not believe in "many paths". That is the problem. A lot of people approch the Bible like it is a do it your kit. What ever you get out of it is OK. I don't do it because Jesus did it, I was baptized because that is what the Word of God teaches. And how or what we do is very important. To many christians and church's do things the way they want to. If the Bible says to do something a certain way, then I think we need to obey the words of our Lord.

37

[Guest firefromheaven]

Imporantance varies throughtout the many paths of the faith Joe. You believe the way it is done is highly significant. I hold more that the practice itself is very significant. Then there are those on this board that think it really is nothing except good. The last is basically, "Jesus did it so we should too!"

While I must say we should follow the actions and love of our Lord, this cannot be the only reason to be baptized. It allows for no understanding of what the purpose is. While we are admonished to follow Christ fully with no doubt even when we do not understand, the vision of the Holy Spirit, the wisdom of God allows us to understand. Jesus never implied, "Be baptized because I was baptized."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do not believe in "many paths". That is the problem. A lot of people approch the Bible like it is a do it your kit. What ever you get out of it is OK. I don't do it because Jesus did it, I was baptized because that is what the Word of God teaches. And how or what we do is very important. To many christians and church's do things the way they want to. If the Bible says to do something a certain way, then I think we need to obey the words of our Lord.

37

[Sola Scriptora]

joe:

my statement was

Amongst the greatest displays of circular reasoning ever seen is when a Oneness Person tries to defend his doctrine.  They never prove their viewpoint, they just assume it throughout and argue that way

.

That's not an attack, that is an observation. I have observed Oneness people and their mentors engage in this type of "argument" over and over and over.

I never got back to you becasue I forgot. I've been very busy, out of town, etc. You know how it is. My apologies.

Now as to the questions, I know there are many questions that are not as simplisitic as to give a yes or no.

But since the issues UPC people quarrel with others about are on the doctrines of soteriology, and the nature of the God head, and since they have said numereous times over the years that Trintarianism is a doctrine of the devil, therefore we are promoters of a satanic doctrine about the Godhead(quite a serious charge!), and since they have taught an EXACT FORMULA ofr baptism and said others were invalid, and since they teach that baptism SAVES(like Essias last post), and since they also teach that tongues is the initial evidence, not of a separate baptism of the Spirit for already saved people, a baptism of empowerment whose initial evidence is tongues, but rather that the baptiusm of the Spirit is salvation, therfore tongues is the proof, we can safely conclude that only UPC people are saved, according to your thinking, and the writings of your mentors, and the many interactions I have had with UPC pastors on discussion forums.

They come on friendly, but they are really ALWAYS looking to dso the same thing--come onto Trintarian forums, act buddy-buddy, and lovey-lovey, and try to cast doubt on our beliefs, our salvation, our baptism etc. They do so with subtilty at first, like the Sperpent did in the garden-Gen 3:1, and they proceed from there.

Wht they try to do is give you enough questions and doubts so that YOU WILL CONCLUDE you are deceived or not saved, and believe the wrong things.

I prefer st4raight up honesty. Paul was not sneaky. Paul said so. He did not hide his intentions or his REAL beliefs. His apostleship was open. And so I prefer it.

Lets cut right through the chase, and avoid the cut and pasteing jobs from Bernard or some other UPC big shot, tell us what you really believe.

I know. I would simply like all of you UPC people to admit it.

Everyone is damned but you BECAUSE the nature of the Godhead is MODALISM. Sorry Esisias, but you need to get your own doctrine straight. Ye are modalists. The present mode of God tpo us is as Spirit.

We cannot be saved unless baptized, and we cannot be saved outside of the right exact to the letter formula. And if someone repents deeply of their sins, and surrenders to Jesus Christ as Lord, but doesn't speak in tongues after that, they are not saved, even though there is godly fruit in their life that shows they are a new creation. They sare still DAMNED.

So just admit this. Don't use sophistry Esisias and say that the Bible teaches what you say therefore people are damned if they are not following your peculiar teachings. THAT REMANES TO BE PROVEN. And that is why Joe, I said you guys always argue in a circle--you ASSUME you are right, you assume the "biblical" viewpoint, as Esisias' post showed, and then argue from there. It is the greatest display of circular reasoning I have ever seen. I have dealt with many cults and various Christian opinions about things, but UPC people have mastered the art of assuming what needs to be proven and then arguing from there. You guys are the best at it.

It is your INTERPRETATION of a handful of Scirpture that is the battleground here. The question is whether Trinitarians should abandon their ancient and majority viewpoint concerning the Godhead for the opinions of a new sect which began in the 1900s. The burden of proof is on YOU to overturn the histric Christian opinion on the nature of the Godhead, the only opinion that orthodox Christians everywhere have believed since the days of the Apostles.

Just one example of how UPC people INTERPRET the Bible:

Esiais says 1Peter 3:21 teaches that baptism "saves us". Now is that what Peter said? Or was that twisting what peter said? Well what did Paul mean when he said:

3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise

masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth

thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus

Christ.

3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious

stones, wood, hay, stubble;

3:13 Every man