if i'm not baptised and i die

[Guest hubertdorm]

Btw, I've never stated here or elsewhere that a person is going to hell if he/she hasn't been dunked. Stop it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hubert, these are YOUR words:

QUOTE(hubertdorm @ Feb 26 2005, 05:21 PM)

Do you see the fallacy in this? The Bible shows that through baptism we are placed in Christ. How then can someone die in Christ that hasn't been baptized? It's impossible. A person is not in Christ until baptized.

So if a person accepts Jesus as savior, but fails (for whatever reason) to be immersed in water, what happens to them? You have already said that such a person is not in Christ, and will not die in Christ failing their immersion in water.

If person does not die "in Christ," what is their eternal destiny? Will they go to heaven or hell? What do you assume would be the natural conclusion given your assessment of a person position before the Lord if they fail to immersed in water?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes those are my words, and I never said anything about being dunked in water.

For me, I accepted Christ in water baptism. Water didn't save me, but it was the point at which I was saved. I've stated before that if a person receives Christ in water baptism (as we have Biblical account of) then water baptism is the point of salvation. I already conceded that a person can be saved w/o being water baptized.

[Guest shiloh357]

Hubert, these are YOUR words:

[Guest hubertdorm]

Honestly, Hubert...  You said that through baptism a person is placed in Christ.  You then ask a rhetorical question: "How then can someone die in Christ that hasn't been baptized?" 

You proceeded to answer that question:  "How then can someone die in Christ that hasn't been baptized? It's impossible. A person is not in Christ until baptized."

Yes, baptism is how we are placed IN Christ and so a person cannot die IN Christ not having been baptized. Shiloh, I did not state in either place that a person must be dunked to be saved.

Also I would like to correct your faulty interpretation of certain verses that preceded the above statements you made in a previous post: 

 

Acts 8:16 The people of Samaria were baptized into Christ Jesus. 

 

Acts 19:5 John's disciples were rebaptized into Christ Jesus.

Wrong on both counts. These Scriptures do NOT say that these people were baptized (water immersed) into Christ. The Scriptures says they were baptized in the Name of Jesus. That is totally different than being baptized INTO Jesus. "In the Name of," means "by His authority," or "with his permission."

Totally different? According to whom? Jesus gave his disciples the authority to baptize in his name before he ascended. It was at this same time he told them, "Whoever believers and is baptized shall be saved. But whoever does not believe is condemned." When we are baptized, is it not by the authority of Jesus?

Romans 6:3 We are baptized into Christ Jesus

It simply refers to our spiritual position. In the preceding chapter Paul tells us that we are either in Adam or in Christ. We are born in Adam but are removed from Adam and placed into or immersed into Christ at the moment of salvation (which is NEVER water immersion). Paul is referring to what we call Postional Justification. We are now identified with Christ by virtue of our new position in Him.

Actually, I was forgiven when I was water baptized. My receiving was in water baptism. But according to you that never occurs. When did the people of Pentecost receive Christ, before or after water baptism? Also, no one is born into Adam.

Concerning Galatians 3...

Actually, I am correct. Besides the Bible has more to say on this subject of being clothed with Christ than just Galatians 3:26-27.  Putting on Christ is not something that occurs at water immersion but it is something that starts at the moment a person makes a decision for Christ.  It starts when they are placed into Christ per Romans 6:3  Once the Holy Spirit has immersed you into Christ, you are clothed  with Christ. Putting on Christ is also a daily part of the process of sanctification.  It is a daily decision we make to be more like Christ, and give up our old habits.

I never said anything about water baptism. The text reads that we who were baptized have put on Christ. That is simple enough.

If baptism were essential to salvation, then it would be in EVERY discussion Paul has about salvation.  It is really simple.  We cannot take for granted that EVERY church read EVERY letter that Paul wrote.  Anything that is universally applicable to EVERY believer must be included in each letter.  Paul would have had to make it clear in every church he wrote to, that baptism was essential in order that they would correctly impart that knowledge to the unbelievers they came in contact with.  He could not take for granted that everyone would understand without his emphasizing that point.  Salvation is waaaay too important to leave anything to chance.  He could not have assumed that they knew everything they needed to know.

I don't agree. The way you think it should have been done doesn't align with history. First, Paul visited these churches in person and instructed them in many things. Not everything passed on to the churches was recorded in letters. The purpose of the letters was to address specific issues, to encourage the spirits, and to reaffirm the apostolic teachings. Remember, the NT letters did not create the church, but the church wrote the letters. This is why it is important to incorporate the practices of the first century church into today's congregations, not because it HAS to be done a certain way, but so that we know what was significant to the apostles that they made sure to pass on the teachings. Baptism, even into water, was so significant that it was always done immediately upon the acceptance of the gospel message as truth.

Paul was very old when he wrote most of those letters and good portion of them were written when he was in prison. Furthermore Paul did NOT visit the church in Rome. Nor did he tell them that baptism was essential for them to incorporate as part of being saved. Baptism is a significant as not only symbol of the inner working of the Holy Spirit on the heart of a Christian, but also as a statement of consecration and devotion to living according to Word of God.

Paul preached the word in Rome for two years shiloh. But I assume you are meaning he did not see them before writing his letter.

[Guest hubertdorm]

Third, when you consider every element that is unquestionably essential to the forgiveness of sins, (ie faith and repentance), you will find that they are not mentioned in every discussion concerning salvation. So your logic is flawed.

1. Peter's letter do not teach that water immersion saves. Peter said that the passengers on the ark were saved through the water. He did not say they were saved BY the water. They were saved from the water (judgement) by being in the ark (In Christ).

2. My logic is not flawed. Since forgiveness presupposes repentance, repentance is a given. When the Bible tells us HOW to be saved, faith is always included, but baptism isnt.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Faith is ALWAYS included?

Acts 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

v. 38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

What happened to faith?

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

No mention of faith.

You have already stated that water immersion is what places in Christ, and that it is impossibe to die in Christ without being immersed in water (baptized).  When you use the term IMPOSSIBLE, it does not indicate that you are merely sitting on the fence. 

Perhaps you would be interested in the following quotes of mine:

Thus, baptism in water doesn't save... 

 

Water doesn't wash away sins....

Also check out this topic from a while back:

Religious race

[SkilletRocksMyFace]

Super Jew, I'll let Christ be the judge if I have studied deeply or not thank your opinion on that matter makes no difference to me.

Can God go against HIs own word? Why can't He, He is God?

Will God go against his own word? I doubt it. You seem to pulling the extremes of what I am saying, please don't twsit my words. I am advising that since non of us are Christ or God that none of us have the rigth to judge another's salvation and that is all I said with regards to that. Did I say that God will break his Word? No I did not. Please quote me where I said that.

Now water baptism, Look at Philip and Eunich, what happened there? Philip preached onto the Eunich Jesus and he asks what he must do to be saved (acts 8) Philip then proceeds to immidatly baptize the Eunich in water after he has confessed with his mouth that Jesus was Lord.

Gal. 3:25

But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian;

Gal. 3:26

for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

Gal. 3:27

For as many of you as were BAPTIZED into Christ have put on Christ.

I agree that when we are baptized we are IN Christ and before then we are not in Christ.

We are told by Jesus to follow him, we are told by Paul to follow thier example. Both were baptized in water, Pual was not just baptized "inwarddly with the spirit" but in water. You CANNOT share in a burial like Christ (Rom 6) by an inward decision, you have to be under the water and raise from it to symbolize the ressurection of CHrist. Baptims you said was "immersion" If not into phycial water than what are you immersing yourself into?

THe fundimetnal pricniple that I want to stress however is that none of us, are God So any wak scanario you want to throw out there solely rests on God to judge a person saved or not. Baptims is for obidence to christ commandments and it is when you are in christ. If you have made the concisous decision to put off the old man and put on Christ like Gal 3 says so by baptims and then suddnely die, God could very well judge you worthy of the kingdom, but for the last time, none of us are God so I urge you to let him do the jugeing please.

This was my answer to the orginal question in the first place. Non of us have the right to jugde salvation, we know the scripture command it, but we do not have authority to judge salvation especialy in those wierd scanarios. God will do as God will do and we have no say in that.

[Guest shiloh357]

Honestly, Hubert...  You said that through baptism a person is placed in Christ.  You then ask a rhetorical question: "How then can someone die in Christ that hasn't been baptized?" 

You proceeded to answer that question:  "How then can someone die in Christ that hasn't been baptized? It's impossible. A person is not in Christ until baptized."

Yes, baptism is how we are placed IN Christ and so a person cannot die IN Christ not having been baptized. Shiloh, I did not state in either place that a person must be dunked to be saved. 

OK, for the sake of clarification. I previously made the assertion that I believe that water immersion is symbolic of the baptism that is done by the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion. It is the baptism that is performed by the Holy Spirit that "immerses" or places us in Christ that saves. Water immersion is an outward demonstration. Are you agreeing with that assertion? Here is my original assertion:

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Feb 25 2005, 07:41 AM)

The only baptism that saves, is being baptised into Christ. 

Rom 6:1  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 

Rom 6:2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 

Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 

Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Baptism into Christ's death is what saves.  That occurs when you receieve Jesus as Savior.  Immersion in water is not the true baptism, but is an outward expression of what happens at the moment of salvation.

So are you, as am I, making the same distinction? I believe that it is entirely impossible to saved apart from the baptism mentioned in Romans 6. However, I will contend that one does not have to be immersed into water to be saved.

Also I would like to correct your faulty interpretation of certain verses that preceded the above statements you made in a previous post: 

 

Acts 8:16 The people of Samaria were baptized into Christ Jesus. 

 

Acts 19:5 John's disciples were rebaptized into Christ Jesus.

Wrong on both counts.  These Scriptures do NOT say that these people were baptized (water immersed) into Christ.  The Scriptures says they were baptized in the Name of Jesus.  That is totally different than being  baptized INTO Jesus.  "In the Name of," means "by His authority," or "with his permission."

Totally different? According to whom? Jesus gave his disciples the authority to baptize in his name before he ascended. It was at this same time he told them, "Whoever believers and is baptized shall be saved. But whoever does not believe is condemned." When we are baptized, is it not by the authority of Jesus? 

Yes they are totally different. You are seem to be saying two different things. You just got done telling me that you are not saying that getting dunked saves anyone, and then you try to to use two Scriptures to prove that people were saved by virtue of water immersion.

Being placed INTO Christ is positional. THAT occurs at conversion. It does not occur before or after conversion. INTO Christ and IN CHRIST'S NAME are not the same concepts. Jesus did give authority to baptize (immerse in water) IN HIS NAME. That means that they were to go out under his authority and do this.

Your assertion was that in these two places in Acts, that the people who are recorded as having been immmersed in water were placed INTO Christ at that time. The text does not say that. It simply means that they were immersed in water in accordance with Christ's command, and the immersers were doing so under Christ's authority. So yeah, it is totally different. You were trying to say something that the Scriptures do not say.

Romans 6:3 We are baptized into Christ Jesus

It simply refers to our spiritual position.  In the preceding chapter Paul tells us that we are either in Adam or in Christ.  We are born in Adam but are removed from Adam and placed into or immersed into Christ at the moment of salvation (which is NEVER water immersion).  Paul is referring to what we call Postional Justification. We are now identified with Christ by virtue of our new position in Him.

Actually, I was forgiven when I was water baptized. My receiving was in water baptism. But according to you that never occurs. When did the people of Pentecost receive Christ, before or after water baptism? Also, no one is born into Adam. 

1. You need to read your Bible. You are born into Adam the minute you are born naturally in this world. You are a member of Adams race until you are saved. Read Romans 5.

2. Whether you got saved when you were being immersed in water is irrelavent. What is relavent is whether or not you think that getting immersed in water has any salvific properties. I don't really care when a person thinks they were saved. Salvation according to the Bible occurs when your faith is placed in Christ as Lord and Savior.

3. The people at Pentecost were saved BEFORE water immersion. How do I know that? In Acts chapter 10, the people in House of Cornelius were saved prior to being baptized with water, and the Holy Spirit demonstrated that to Peter. The disciples at Ephesus were believers who had not been baptized until Paul baptized them. So examples can be shown that it is not as cut and dried as some indicate that a person is saved ONLY after water immersion has been performed.

Concerning Galatians 3... 

 

Actually, I am correct. Besides the Bible has more to say on this subject of being clothed with Christ than just Galatians 3:26-27.  Putting on Christ is not something that occurs at water immersion but it is something that starts at the moment a person makes a decision for Christ.  It starts when they are placed into Christ per Romans 6:3  Once the Holy Spirit has immersed you into Christ, you are clothed  with Christ. Putting on Christ is also a daily part of the process of sanctification.  It is a daily decision we make to be more like Christ, and give up our old habits.

I never said anything about water baptism. The text reads that we who were baptized have put on Christ. That is simple enough. 

Interesting, because it follows Scriptures you posted concerning water immersion saying that this had to be done in order to be placed in Christ. Seems like an evasive maneuver. The context of your post where you placed this verse indicates that you were using in support of water immersion.

If baptism were essential to salvation, then it would be in EVERY discussion Paul has about salvation.  It is really simple.  We cannot take for granted that EVERY church read EVERY letter that Paul wrote.  Anything that is universally applicable to EVERY believer must be included in each letter.  Paul would have had to make it clear in every church he wrote to, that baptism was essential in order that they would correctly impart that knowledge to the unbelievers they came in contact with.  He could not take for granted that everyone would understand without his emphasizing that point.  Salvation is waaaay too important to leave anything to chance.  He could not have assumed that they knew everything they needed to know.

I don't agree. The way you think it should have been done doesn't align with history. First, Paul visited these churches in person and instructed them in many things. Not everything passed on to the churches was recorded in letters. The purpose of the letters was to address specific issues, to encourage the spirits, and to reaffirm the apostolic teachings. Remember, the NT letters did not create the church, but the church wrote the letters. This is why it is important to incorporate the practices of the first century church into today's congregations, not because it HAS to be done a certain way, but so that we know what was significant to the apostles that they made sure to pass on the teachings. Baptism, even into water, was so significant that it was always done immediately upon the acceptance of the gospel message as truth.

Paul was very old when he wrote most of those letters and good portion of them were written when he was in prison.  Furthermore Paul did NOT visit the church in Rome.  Nor did he tell them that baptism was essential for them to incorporate as part of being saved.  Baptism is a significant as not only symbol of the inner working of the Holy Spirit on the heart of a Christian, but also as a statement of consecration and devotion to living according to Word  of God.

Paul preached the word in Rome for two years shiloh. But I assume you are meaning he did not see them before writing his letter.

Yeah, he did so under house arrest. The point is that he never once anywhere instructed anyone that they had to immersed in water to be saved. He only taught that the true baptism is necessary for salvation.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

"By the water" as rendered in the KJV is incorrect. In the Greek it is rendered as,di' hudatos "Through the water." The flood water was an act of judgement. The water did not save Noah and his family. The Ark was the object of salvation. The Ark saved Noah and His family in the midst of the watery judgement of God upon the Earth.

Faith was not mentioned per se, but it would have to have been required for them to be saved. Furthermore the rest of the passage tells us that Peter had more to say than what you quoted. Faith is always required for salvation. Water immersion is NEVER required for salvation.

Act 2:38 "Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and strongly urged them, saying, "Be saved from this corrupt generation!"

QUOTE(hubertdorm)Perhaps you would be interested in the following quotes of mine:

Thus, baptism in water doesn't save... 

 

Water doesn't wash away sins....

Well, some of the Scriptures you quote to defend yourself seem to indicate differently; especially when you insist that people who were recorded as being immersed in water, were being "baptized into Christ" at that time.

I think you need make a more concrete distinction between baptism and water immersion if we are going to understand each other correctly. This debate started off as a discussion as to whether or not people have to be immersed in water to be saved.

In common parlance whenever some mentions baptism, they are speaking of water immersion. I have been careful to make a distinction between water immersion and the true baptism. I would like to know if you make that distinction as well.

[apothanein kerdos]

If you can slip out of this by saying, "Oh I'm not a judge" then you've proven how far your study, or lack thereof, has truly gone. No need to debate, you've shown the level (again, lack thereof) of thought you've put into this issue. When you have studied it and looked at it in the original language and spent hours over it, come back to me and we'll talk.

[SkilletRocksMyFace]

Alright Super Jew you win man, okay. You need to calm down and relax.

I entered this discussion for just that reason, a discussion, not a judgemental debate about who is right or wrong. My agenda here is to add my two cents and support it with scritpure but I'm not on this board to press issues if you're just going to get uptight about it.

I am formally backing down and will not post on this thread again. I am going to suggest to everyone that we keep our focus on Gods word and uplifiting eachother instead of throwing out comments like "you need to rea you bible" and the like. Our attitude should be Christ like. I believe I have added my 2 cents and shown it scirpturally, however some of you seem to disagree and thats all well and good, I'm not going to try and push my opinon on top of anyone elses.

Super Jew, take a deep breathe okay, I politly disagree with you but I'm not going to retaliate your judging me with harsh remarks of my own. My answer the question of this thread was simple and I believe it scritpural. You can say what you like, but clearly Christ will be the final judge, so it is quite biblical to say that we won't be judging anyone's salvation because that is a fact, unless you want to claim to be Christ.

Everyone else, thanks for letting me discuss this peaceably with you.

Edited February 28, 2005 by SkilletRocksMyFace

[Guest shiloh357]

Hi shiloh

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

shiloh357,Feb 27 2005, 10:04 PM

What I am also saying is that water immersion has NO salvific properties.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned." (Mark 16:16)

Ah yes... The ever so fallacious usage of Mark 16:16

Here is the faulty logic used when employing that verse in that manner"

Premise #1. Everyone who believes in Jesus and is baptized, is saved

Premise #2. Joe believes in Jesus, but has not been baptized.

Conclusion: Joe is not saved.

Let's illustrate the faultiness of that premise this way:

Premise #1. Everyone who enrolls at UCLA and lives on campus, is a college student.

Premise #2. Joe is enrolled at UCLA, but does not live on campus

Conclusion: Joe is not a college student.

Obviously Joe could be a college student without living on campus.

QUOTE

shiloh357,Feb 27 2005, 10:04 PM

You completely misread this text. Spurgeon does not say that this text is speaking of water immersion.

Again, Spurgeon commenting on Romans 6:3-4,