QUESTIONS concerning 1Cor.15 & 1Thes.4

[heyvavhey]

3 hours ago, Salty said:

Your reasonings on the matter are fantasy. There's loads of Scripture evidence for the split of old Israel into two separate houses which were the two kingdoms God created during the reign of Rehoboam, Solomon's son. All one need do is start reading in 1 Kings 11 and continue forwards to 2 Kings 18. You're denying those Scripture proofs actually makes you look grossly handicapped.

 

Right.

And most (though not all) returned when the Persians conquored Assyria and Babylon and Cyrus gave the decree.  They called it Israel, and ALL of those people were both Jewish and Israelites. That's why the terms Jew = Israelite = the circumcision = Jacob

There is no reason to get ugly just because you didn't know that. 

Edited December 23, 2016 by heyvavhey

[heyvavhey]

2 hours ago, WailingWall said:

 

Youse dont think that covenant has already arrived. Do ya?

It has begun and the door is swung wide open for all people to be in His community. 

But it is not actually fulfilled until He is anointed King over the House of Israel and the House of Judah

[heyvavhey]

4 hours ago, Salty said:

I'll trade it any day for believing that only Jews are God's people,

 

Did you mean to reply to me when you said this?  Because that ain't me you are talking to. 

 

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especially when Jews reject God's Savior Jesus Christ, and treat Him as a seditionist.

 

 

There are a thousand times as many gentiles who do that, so by your reasoning no gentiles are allowed into heaven with you either. You will be so lonely!?

Is your view that only Jews have rejected Yeshua? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2016 by heyvavhey

[heyvavhey]

3 hours ago, Salty said:

And yet Christ and His Apostles and the OT prophets preached just the opposite... of what you are saying.

God is no respecter of persons, you will NOT gain His Salvation just by being born a Jew. To receive His Salvation, you MUST believe on Jesus' death and resurrection as The Son of God.

 

 

You seem to be hearing something I've never said in my life.

 

All I've said is what is foundational and clearly written in the Word. It's you guys who frankenstein a verse from thousands of years ago with a half sentence said 800 years later to someone else, then wrap it in a metaphor and call "scripture"

 

 

 

[heyvavhey]

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

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But according to you thats replacement theology.

 

 

It depends on who is doing the "joining". If you have Israel "joining" a specifically christian institution known as the "Church" today, then you've got it bassackwards. You have replaced them. 

Being joined to them is not replacing them. 

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

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But according to you the cross has nothing to do the ephraim....

 

 

 

And it doesn't. 

Your hysterics have yet to prove any link except in vivid imagination.

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

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Joined? Another word is engrafting, according to you thats replacement theology.....

 

 

Again, depends on who you think is engrafted into who. 

 

 

[WailingWall]

2 hours ago, WailingWall said:

HEBREWS 8 [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [13] In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, HE HATH MADE THE FIRST OLD. NOW THAT WHICH DECAYETH AND WAXETH OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.

Although we are to try and walk as if Gods law was written in our heart, has the covenant of Hebrews 8 already arrived?

Verse 8- I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Not a gentile mentioned anywhere. Are you from either house?

Verse 11- Does EVERYONE know the Lord? Not even close. There will come a time.

Verse 13- Hebrews 8 was written AFTER the crucified Christ and the scripture clearly says that the old covenant (10 commandments) is WAXING OLD and GETTING READY to vanish. Aint vanished yet! Yes there are some books that claim the ten are obsolete. In them same books youll find in Hebrews 4 the name of Jesus being change to Joshua for the same reason.

Verse 10- When God writes His commandments in our heart you can bet the ranch we will be keeping them. Yes, even His sabbath. When will God write His laws in our hearts?

DEUT. 30 [4] If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will THE LORD THY GOD GATHER THEE, and from thence will he fetch thee: [5] And the Lord THY GOD WILL BRING THEE INTO THE LAND WHICH THY FATHERS POSSESSED, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. [6] And the Lord THY GOD WILL CIRCUMCISE THINE HEART, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. [7] And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. [8] And THOU SHALT RETURN AND OBEY THE VOICE OF THE LORD, AND DO ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS which I command thee this day.

Its after the  gathering {in the twinkling of an eye} to the kingdom rest. Verse 8- Yes.... that would be the 10 commandments. Thats when God puts His law in our hearts. We will be keeping all His laws. Are we now? Does that include the sabbath

ISAIAH 66 [22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. [23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, SHALL ALL FLESH COME TO WORSHIP before me, saith the Lord.

Yup

JEREMIAH 16  [14] Therefore, BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; [15] But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

Behold, the days come! Has verse 15 come to pass? Has this prophecy been fulfilled. Nope

JEREMIAH 23 [5] BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. [6] In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. [7] Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; [8] But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Behold, the days come! Has this prophecy been fulfilled. Nope. Not yet

JEREMIAH 33  [14] BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. [15] In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. [16] IN THOSE DAYS SHALL JUDAH BE SAVED, AND JERUSALEM SHALL DWELL SAFELY: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

Behold, the days come! Is Jerusalem dwelling safely? Has this prophecy been fulfilled. Nope

JEREMIAH 31 [31] BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; AFTER THOSE DAYS, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] AND THEY SHALL TEACH NO MORE EVERY MAN HIS NEIGHBOUR, AND EVERY MAN HIS BROTHER, SAYING, KNOW THE LORD: FOR THEY SHALL ALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM UNTO THE GREATEST of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Behold, the days come! Has this prophecy been fulfilled. Does EVERYONE know the Lord?  Nope. So how in the world can anyone claim "behold the days come" has not yet come and yet "after those days" has already come. Whose on first?

 

 

[Salty]

18 hours ago, WailingWall said:

HEBREWS 8 [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [13] In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, HE HATH MADE THE FIRST OLD. NOW THAT WHICH DECAYETH AND WAXETH OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.

Although we are to try and walk as if Gods law was written in our heart, has the covenant of Hebrews 8 already arrived?

Verse 8- I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Not a gentile mentioned anywhere. Are you from either house?

Verse 11- Does EVERYONE know the Lord? Not even close. There will come a time.

Verse 13- Hebrews 8 was written AFTER the crucified Christ and the scripture clearly says that the old covenant (10 commandments) is WAXING OLD and GETTING READY to vanish. Aint vanished yet! Yes there are some books that claim the ten are obsolete. In them same books youll find in Hebrews 4 the name of Jesus being change to Joshua for the same reason.

Verse 10- When God writes His commandments in our heart you can bet the ranch we will be keeping them. Yes, even His sabbath. When will God write His laws in our hearts?

DEUT. 30 [4] If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will THE LORD THY GOD GATHER THEE, and from thence will he fetch thee: [5] And the Lord THY GOD WILL BRING THEE INTO THE LAND WHICH THY FATHERS POSSESSED, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. [6] And the Lord THY GOD WILL CIRCUMCISE THINE HEART, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. [7] And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. [8] And THOU SHALT RETURN AND OBEY THE VOICE OF THE LORD, AND DO ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS which I command thee this day.

Its after the  gathering {in the twinkling of an eye} to the kingdom rest. Verse 8- Yes.... that would be the 10 commandments. Thats when God puts His law in our hearts. We will be keeping all His laws. Are we now? Does that include the sabbath

ISAIAH 66 [22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. [23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, SHALL ALL FLESH COME TO WORSHIP before me, saith the Lord.

Yup

For what you say above to be true, it would mean the New Covenant has not yet been offered! It would mean Christ's death on the cross meant nothing!

And in that case, what are you doing here on a CHRISTIAN forum if you believe the Old Covenant is still in effect for Israel?!@?

No, the New Covenant HAS... come, and many of the lost sheep of the house of Israel scattered among the Gentiles have believed, while many of the house of Judah have still yet to believe today.

 

[Salty]

17 hours ago, heyvavhey said:

 

Right.

And most (though not all) returned when the Persians conquored Assyria and Babylon and Cyrus gave the decree.  They called it Israel, and ALL of those people were both Jewish and Israelites. That's why the terms Jew = Israelite = the circumcision = Jacob

There is no reason to get ugly just because you didn't know that. 

Of course the name Israel still technically applied to the southern kingdom of the "house of Judah" simply because they too were children of Israel, i.e., Israelites, and thus of Israel. A Jew today born of one of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, or Levi is still an Israelite.

But those of the northern ten tribed kingdom of Israel, called the "house of Israel" in God's Word, did not involve the Jews of the southern kingdom, except a small remnant of the ten tribes that migrated south. Per 2 Chronicles 11, when Jeroboam, king over the ten northern tribes, setup golden calf idol worship, those who refused that false worship left and went south to side with Judah. But that was only a small remnant of the ten tribes though, because after that the two houses went to war against each other until God removed the ten northern tribes out of the land by the kings of Assyria.

The captivity of the northern kingdom house of Israel was around 120 years PRIOR to Judah's captivity to Babylon for 70 years by Nebuchadnezzar. The ten tribes of the northern kingdom were already GONE out of the land when Judah went into captivity.

Ezra 1:5
5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.
KJV

Ezra 2:64-65
64 The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore,

65 Beside their servants and their maids, of whom there were seven thousand three hundred thirty and seven: and there were among them two hundred singing men and singing women.
KJV

Ezra and Nehemiah say nothing about the ten northern tribes of the house of Israel that were scattered first returning to Judea. It mention only those of the southern kingdom ("house of Judah") returning after the 70 years Babylon captivity. Makes sense too, since Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, did NOT take the northern ten tribes into captivity to Babylon for 70 years. Even that small number of total Israelites between the southern and northern kingdoms easily proves that only those of the southern kingdom of Judah (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and some small remnants of the ten tribes, and strangers) are those who went captive to Babylon while the majority... of the northern ten tribes were still captive to Halah, Habor, and the cities of the Medes like 2 Kings 17 declares, which 2 Kings 17 also declares who was left after the ten tribes had been removed:

2 Kings 17:18
18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
KJV

2 Kings 17 even gives us proof of who the Samaritans were, and why the Jews later would have nothing to do with them, well knowing the Samaritans were foreigners from Babylon that the king of Assyria placed in the northern lands of Israel after the ten tribes were removed. And you know, a Jew that recognizes the Samaritans as pagan foreigners is automatically recognizing the split of old Israel into two separate houses, and how the kings of Assyria had removed the ten northern tribes of Israel. Because if that had not happened, then the Samaritan foreigners from Babylon would not have been placed there.

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by Salty

[WailingWall]

31 minutes ago, Salty said:

For what you say above to be true, it would mean the New Covenant has not yet been offered! It would mean Christ's death on the cross meant nothing!

And in that case, what are you doing here on a CHRISTIAN forum if you believe the Old Covenant is still in effect for Israel?!@?

No, the New Covenant HAS... come, and many of the lost sheep of the house of Israel scattered among the Gentiles have believed, while many of the house of Judah have still yet to believe today.

 

The covenant spoken of in Hebrews and Jer.31 has not yet arrived. Salty.....does EVERYONE know the Lord???? NO. However

ZECH.9 [9] Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.[10] And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.[11] As for thee also, BY THE BLOOD OF THY COVENANT I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water

Verse 9 definately prophecies of the coming Jesus. Verse 11, Jesus is called the blood of thy covenant

HEBREWS 12 [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,[24] And to Jesus THE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT, AND TO THE BLOOD of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

New covenant...blood

LUKE 22 [19] And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. [20] Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, THIS CUP IS THE NEW TESTAMENT IN MY BLOOD, which is shed for you.

New testament...blood

HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

old covenant...blood of goats

HEBREWS 10 [1] For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] FOR IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.[8] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.

old testament...blood of bulls and goats; the shadow of Christ

He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

JOHN 6 [53] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. [54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. [55] For MY FLESH IS MEAT INDEED, and MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED.

And theres the 2nd.

 

[Salty]

Just now, WailingWall said:

The covenant spoken of in Hebrews and Jer.31 has not yet arrived. Salty.....does EVERYONE know the Lord???? NO.

....

How can you not understand that the waxing old of the Old Covenant meant it was literally ended when Jesus died on the cross and offered the New Covenant??? How could you not understand that's what those Hebrews 8 passages are about, and the whole Book of Hebrews for that matter!

Heb 8:7-13
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The New Covenant Jesus Christ is offered to both the house of Israel (ten scattered tribes) and the house of Judah (Jews). But the majority of Jews today still have yet to accept Jesus Christ, and are rebellious.

 

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in My covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people:

This "covenant" is the New Covenant Jesus Christ. That idea of God putting His laws into their minds and hearts is about the receiving of The Holy Spirit, which happens ONLY among those who accept Christ Jesus. Here there is mention only of the "house of Israel" this time. The "house of Judah" has been left out.

The reason the house of Judah is left out of this part is because the majority of the "house of Judah" (Jews) still reject Jesus because of the blindness God put upon them per Romans 11. During this world it is not ordained for the majority of the Jews to understand and believe on Christ Jesus. Their time will be at the start of Christ's future 1,000 years reign (Zech.12). And like Jesus said, that He was not sent but unto the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", meaning to the scattered ten tribes and they would believe, even as it is today with the majority of Jews still rejecting Him.

 

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

This BEGAN with the New Covenant. But it began only for those who accepted the New Covenant Jesus Christ, believing on His death and resurrection for the remission of sins. And truly among the history of the western Christian nations, no one has need of asking who is God, since there's been a Church on just about every other street corner. In these latter days now, many are under a falling away period, so Church attendance is down in many Churches in the Christian west. But I remember a time in the 1960's when everyone I knew in high school attended Christian Church regularly when growing up. In some U.S. communities back in history with the Blue Laws, it was made mandatory that you would do no work on Sundays, and you would attend Church. No one had to ask who God was, everyone knew, even down to the little child. This prophecy was fulfilled among the Christian Church.

But it has not yet been fulfilled among the house of Judah, for the majority of them still reject Christ Jesus.