Christ's Free Servant Posted May 6, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 197 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,461 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/18/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/31/1949 Share Posted May 6, 2005 IF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christ's Free Servant Posted May 6, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 197 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,461 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/18/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/31/1949 Author Share Posted May 6, 2005 IF your salvation is conditional and not a sure thing, wouldn't you want to know it? The following thread was created to reveal scripture verses that clearly show us that we must continue in our faith if we want to have assurance of eternal life. Would anyone like to offer an interpretation of these verses? What I find on here are two opposing views - OSAS on the one side and you can lose your salvation on the other side, but what I don't see are the OSAS people being willing to take a good hard look at these scriptures before God and asking God to show them what they mean. I had to come to grips with these verses some years back. I could not ignore them, just because I did not like what they said. I'm not looking for a debate here. What I am trying to do is present the truth of God's word so that people can let God speak to them concerning their salvation. This is a very serious issue here and one I don't think we should ignore. God is calling each one of us to repentance. He is calling each one of us to holy living. And, if I read these verses correctly, how we live our lives does ultimately affect whether or not we have eternal life. Can you see it any other way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneAccord Posted May 6, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 147 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,587 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted May 6, 2005 Jesus is my Saviour.....I hope...... I think I'm going to heaven, but I'm not really sure........... The GOOD NEWS is that Jesus died for my sins. The BAD NEWS is I'm not really sure if I'm good enough to win His salvation. The GOOD NEWS is that salvation is a free gift from God, the BAD NEWS is that He will take it away again if we aren't good enough. Yikes!!!! What a gospel!!!! Help!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneAccord Posted May 6, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 147 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,587 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted May 6, 2005 "how we live our lives does ultimately affect whether or not we have eternal life" Heaven is going to be a mighty lonely place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christ's Free Servant Posted May 7, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 197 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,461 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/18/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/31/1949 Author Share Posted May 7, 2005 Jesus is my Saviour.....I hope...... I think I'm going to heaven, but I'm not really sure........... The GOOD NEWS is that Jesus died for my sins. The BAD NEWS is I'm not really sure if I'm good enough to win His salvation. The GOOD NEWS is that salvation is a free gift from God, the BAD NEWS is that He will take it away again if we aren't good enough. Yikes!!!! What a gospel!!!! Help!!!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I appreciate your candor here, but these are not my words. This is the word of God. If it is not saying what I proposed it is saying, then tell me how else I could possibly translate these verses. The issue here is not my opinion versus your opinion. The issue is truth and obedience to that truth. If these verses are saying what they appear to be saying, then we can not just write them off because we don't like what they say. When God confronts us with truth in scripture, it is our responsibility to find out what it is saying so that we can do what it says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted May 7, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 7, 2005 (edited) I'll be glad to respond to the John 8:31-32 verse: If you look at the expanded context, Jesus is having a dialogue with the Jews regarding His true identity. Jesus speaks of the fact that He will be lifted up and the text says that many believed in Him. In verse 32 it seems that Jesus challenges their belief by saying that their actions have to line up with their words for them to be truly free. Their response in verse 33 is interesting. They appeal to the fact that they have a relationship with Abraham as proof that they are already free. Notice that they did not appeal to their relationship to Him, but to their national heritage. There faith was misguided. They believe din some of HIs words, but not Him Jesus challenges them by challenging their assumption that their eternal destiny is secure because of their relationship to Abraham. This culminates in John 8:58 with His claim to be I Am, at which point these same people who had just "believed in Him" sought to stone Him. They did not in fact believe He was God. So to use this as a proof text to say that obedience plus faith is necessary for salvation is incorrect. The context clearly shows that their belief in Him was superficial and incorrect. They were still clinging to their belief in their national heritage to save them. They never had the correct faith in the first place, they were trusting in something other than Christ. The works that they needed to do were the works of Abraham, which according to Jesus was true faith in Him (8:56). This is indicated in Genesis where is says that Abraham believed God, and that belief was reckoned to him as righteousness Edited May 7, 2005 by pastoreric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted May 7, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 7, 2005 I will also respond to Romans 8:12-14 by once again looking at the verse in context: In chapter 8, Paul is beginning a section to show what it means to be "in Christ". He begins the section by stating that there is not longer any condemnation for those who are in Christ, because condemnation comes through the Law and those who are in Christ are no longer under the law (8:1-2). Paul then goes onto say that the law was limited in what it could do. It could not save because of the weakness of the flesh. No man could keep the whole law. God the Father sent Jesus into the world to fulfill the purpose of the law (to keep it and pay the penalty for those who did not). Jesus took that death on himself so that we would be freed from the penalty of the law (8:3-4) Those who are in Christ no longer live a life characterized by the flesh (keeping the law in our own power). Our minds are no longer set on that, because Christ has fulfilled the entire purpose of the law. Thus those in Christ are now free to set their minds to a higher purpose, a Spiritual one, not worrying about keeping the law (8:5) Paul then goes on to declare that a person whose mind is set on keeping the law in the flesh (to be saved) is doomed to spiritual death, because they can't do it. Those in Christ are set free from this and thus can experience true peace. The one who tries to keep the law in the flesh is really battling aganst God, because they are not capable of doing it in the flesh (8:6-8) Paul then goes on to say that those who are in Christ are now free from this because the Spirit of the living Christ, who fulfilled the law and its requirements of punishment, dwells in us. The only measuring device for knowing if we belong to God is the presence of the Spirity of Christ in us (8:9-10) Paul then draws the conclusion that if the Spirit of Christ dwells in us, we will be given life and are no longe under obligation to keep the law in the flesh. In fact the opposite is true, we are now to live on a Spiritual plane. Our obedience is not for salvation, but a Spiritual service of worship (Look ahead to Romans 12) In fact, Paul says that the person who is trying to live the law in the flesh is doomed to die spiritually, but the ones who are in Christ are His sons because of Christ. This passage actually proves the opposite of what you are trying to demonstrate. I think the issue is you are using the verses out of context. The real question Paul is asking is what role obedience has. Those who obey to be saved are doomed. Those who are saved are now free to obey because their salvation is not hinged on it. They obey to worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christ's Free Servant Posted May 7, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 197 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,461 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/18/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/31/1949 Author Share Posted May 7, 2005 I will also respond to Romans 8:12-14 by once again looking at the verse in context: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ok, your explanation of both the John 8 and the Romans 8 passages sound credible from a surface evaluation. I would have to go back and study them for myself in light of what you said before I could definitely agree. Those two passages were the easier ones to interpret in light of the question at hand. Others are much more difficult, especially the ones that clearly are speaking to believers and telling them that they will receive salvation "if" or "provided that" they continue in their faith. What do you say to those passages? Oh, and thank you so much for giving a response to specific passages. This is what I was hoping for. I understand all of the eternal security verses, so I'm not looking for more of those. These others, and more like them, have always caused me to question eternal security, though, so I'm looking for some dialogue that deals with specific interpretations of these verses in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted May 7, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 7, 2005 (edited) Sue, I'll try and respond to the others as time and ability allows. I agree with you on firing verses back and forth. It does not accomplish much and just leads to arguing. I would rather respond to a question someone has asked then talk about other verses in a different context (unless a different verse has somehting directly to say to the verses at hand) Edited May 7, 2005 by pastoreric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted May 7, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 7, 2005 By the way thanks for asking these questions!! They are really encouraging me to make sure I understand what I believe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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