Apocrypha

[Smalcald]

"You see, the RCC looks at Scripture and forms doctrine. Protestants look at their doctrine and then try to make Scripture support it"

I find that statement offensive.

What doctrine was looked at when it was suddenly "determined" by a Pope speaking infallibly in the last two hundred years that Mary did not die but ascended into heaven?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend.

I was only stating what I believe to be true of what occurred during the Reformation. Martin Luther threw out the books that did not agree with his own doctrines. It's in the encyclopedia.

Most of the 30,000 Protestant denominations splintered from that point.

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Do you think that perhaps I get offended when I'm told my Church is run by Satan??????

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Doctrines don't "suddenly happen".

A doctrine is most commonly a belief held by the Church from its beginning, based on Scripture and Tradition (before you pounce on this word read 2 Thessalonians 2: 15 " So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.")

Many were formalized and stated "infallibly" in response to a heresy.

Peace,

Fiosh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Any tradition that Paul or the Apostles commanded believers would never contradict the Word, but would be in accordance with it. I have a tradition of reading the Bible every day (mostly any way)...but i don't have a tradition of reading the quran.

Get me drift???

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Exactly! Then we agree.

Love ya,

F

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think there are number of basic inaccuracies here. Luther worked to publish the Gospel, not throw books out, his teachings or doctrine were in line with all of the bible at that time, that is where his teachings came from. I don't know why the RCC worked so hard to suppress the printing of the bible at that time, but it did vigorously try to do that.

As far as 30,000 denominations go, that is grossly misleading. The majority of Protestants belong to eight or nine major denominations, all of whom agree that a faith in Christ alone brings one to salvation, thus they are in unity in the role of salvation and where it comes from. No doubt they differ on some areas of doctrine, and this is an ongoing problem. But the differences between Protestant groups are wildly overblown. There are huge variations of belief within the RCC also.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

History shows that Martin Luther eliminated books from the canon of the Bible accepted at that time, that did not agree with his doctines. You will find that in any encyclopedia or history of the Reformation.

The Catholic Church only suppressed the printing of the versions of the Bible that were not in keeping with the canon.

Ok, I'll compromise, your own Protestant researchers say 6,000-8,000.

If I said, "well all Catholics are in unity on the role of salvation but, no doubt they differ on some areas of doctrine", I'd be cut to ribbons on these boards.

There are NO variations of doctrine in the RCC. You take the whole package or none at all.

Peace,

Fiosh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Fiosh.

A number of points.

First I have no problem accepting that the grist of the Holy Bible came through the Catholic Church, historically there is not a bunch of other options! There were as you know numerous Gospel accounts and letters floating around for the first couple of centuries, letters by Thomas for example, there had to be a point for a determination to be made about which were truly from God and had the impact of changing lives, truly of the Holy Spirit, the Church through the Holy Spirit made those determinations. So obviously I don't think the Catholic Church is evil or of Satan etc.

But I think the reformation essentially brought the Gospel out, it breathed life into the Christian Church, which was much needed, and we can talk about that specifically but on balance the good far outweighs the bad, it was worth the cost.

But as far as denomination goes, my point was not the number of denominations, but where most Protestants worship. Most Protestants, the majority of Protestants are in only six or seven major denominations. The are united in the belief that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ, most accept the Creeds or something like them, so the divisions are simply not that great.

But we fight and argue about many things and this divides us and this is no doubt a great stain on our efforts, I have to agree.

But do you think Catholics for Choice for example take the whole package of doctrine?

I mean I meet these people who say they are Catholics and take the Eucharist, who seem to believe about anything, all over the map. There is a huge disparity about what Catholics believe; I mean a full half of Catholics in the US vote for candidates who support abortion. Look at Europe, abortion is considered normal and acceptable, yet most of the continent is Catholic? There is a major disconnect somewhere. It seems as if a cultural Catholic versus a believing Catholic is becoming the norm?

[Fiosh]

"You see, the RCC looks at Scripture and forms doctrine. Protestants look at their doctrine and then try to make Scripture support it"

I find that statement offensive.

What doctrine was looked at when it was suddenly "determined" by a Pope speaking infallibly in the last two hundred years that Mary did not die but ascended into heaven?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend.

I was only stating what I believe to be true of what occurred during the Reformation. Martin Luther threw out the books that did not agree with his own doctrines. It's in the encyclopedia.

Most of the 30,000 Protestant denominations splintered from that point.

****************************************************************

Do you think that perhaps I get offended when I'm told my Church is run by Satan??????

***********************************************************

Doctrines don't "suddenly happen".

A doctrine is most commonly a belief held by the Church from its beginning, based on Scripture and Tradition (before you pounce on this word read 2 Thessalonians 2: 15 " So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.")

Many were formalized and stated "infallibly" in response to a heresy.

Peace,

Fiosh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Any tradition that Paul or the Apostles commanded believers would never contradict the Word, but would be in accordance with it. I have a tradition of reading the Bible every day (mostly any way)...but i don't have a tradition of reading the quran.

Get me drift???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly! Then we agree.

Love ya,

F

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think there are number of basic inaccuracies here. Luther worked to publish the Gospel, not throw books out, his teachings or doctrine were in line with all of the bible at that time, that is where his teachings came from. I don't know why the RCC worked so hard to suppress the printing of the bible at that time, but it did vigorously try to do that.

As far as 30,000 denominations go, that is grossly misleading. The majority of Protestants belong to eight or nine major denominations, all of whom agree that a faith in Christ alone brings one to salvation, thus they are in unity in the role of salvation and where it comes from. No doubt they differ on some areas of doctrine, and this is an ongoing problem. But the differences between Protestant groups are wildly overblown. There are huge variations of belief within the RCC also.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

History shows that Martin Luther eliminated books from the canon of the Bible accepted at that time, that did not agree with his doctines. You will find that in any encyclopedia or history of the Reformation.

The Catholic Church only suppressed the printing of the versions of the Bible that were not in keeping with the canon.

Ok, I'll compromise, your own Protestant researchers say 6,000-8,000.

If I said, "well all Catholics are in unity on the role of salvation but, no doubt they differ on some areas of doctrine", I'd be cut to ribbons on these boards.

There are NO variations of doctrine in the RCC. You take the whole package or none at all.

Peace,

Fiosh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Fiosh.

A number of points.

First I have no problem accepting that the grist of the Holy Bible came through the Catholic Church, historically there is not a bunch of other options! There were as you know numerous Gospel accounts and letters floating around for the first couple of centuries, letters by Thomas for example, there had to be a point for a determination to be made about which were truly from God and had the impact of changing lives, truly of the Holy Spirit, the Church through the Holy Spirit made those determinations. So obviously I don't think the Catholic Church is evil or of Satan etc.

But I think the reformation essentially brought the Gospel out, it breathed life into the Christian Church, which was much needed, and we can talk about that specifically but on balance the good far outweighs the bad, it was worth the cost.

But as far as denomination goes, my point was not the number of denominations, but where most Protestants worship. Most Protestants, the majority of Protestants are in only six or seven major denominations. The are united in the belief that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ, most accept the Creeds or something like them, so the divisions are simply not that great.

But we fight and argue about many things and this divides us and this is no doubt a great stain on our efforts, I have to agree.

But do you think Catholics for Choice for example take the whole package of doctrine?

I mean I meet these people who say they are Catholics and take the Eucharist, who seem to believe about anything, all over the map. There is a huge disparity about what Catholics believe; I mean a full half of Catholics in the US vote for candidates who support abortion. Look at Europe, abortion is considered normal and acceptable, yet most of the continent is Catholic? There is a major disconnect somewhere. It seems as if a cultural Catholic versus a believing Catholic is becoming the norm?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Smalcald,

Re: "Catholics" for Choice

I'm glad you brought that up. Yes, there are those who consider themselves Catholics, even receive Holy Communion, but do not accept Catholic doctrine.

Just as there are those who call themselves Lutheran, sing in the choir, go to church every Sunday, and deny the Divinity of Jesus.

What we are discussing/debating on this thread is the teaching and doctrine of the Church. How its sinful members live their lives does not reflect what the Church teaches---yours nor mine.

The difference is that non-Catholic Christian denominations DO teach a diversity of doctrines: OSAS vs. not OSAS; Trinity vs. non-Trinity; various degrees of Presence in Holy Communion; different beliefs about baptism; etc.....

Just look at the discussions going on right here on major issues.

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The Church openly defends the unborn and calls abortion, "murder" and a sin. Period. No discussion. No exceptions.

Those who support abortion are considered to be in a state of mortal (serious) sin and should not receive the Holy Eucharist.

(side note to anyone about to jump on this and argue the issue of degrees of sin: START YOUR OWN THREAD)

Aside from the Catholic Church, is there any other denomination that steadfastly opposes abortion in any form; for any reason?

I'm asking---this is not rhetorical.

Peace to you,

Fiosh

PS. Re: "Europe - most of the continent is Catholic"

I'm not sure that's an accurate statement.

[Fiosh]

I think you misunderstood me.

[Fiosh]

Halifax said:

"Listen well my dear friend...I don't care what protestant churches are doing and neither should other protestants churches care what I am doing. We should all be caring what the Word of God said...and that is what makes us PROTESTANTS and CHRISTIANS...not the church we reside in...which is only a building, and these days, mostly just a social gathering of pharisees."

That's another difference. RC's rarely socialize in our sanctuary. We are asked to be respectful of those who are prayerfully preparing themselves for worship.

We acknowledge Jesus is present here and our attention should be focused on him, not the latest gossip.

After our time of worship---the Mass----we socialize outside or in a gathering space apart from the sanctuary.

[Pax]

Fiosh,

What diocese do you live in? I am just curious, for I admire your formation as a Catholic.....you have been taught well. I have read most everything that you have written about the Catholic Church and you are right on. Continue evangelizing about the Church and telling the truth. God Bless you

[halifaxchristian]

Fiosh...I will go to my death preaching against the Catholic Church. I pray that I will die at the hands of the Jesuits...God willing. Lord knows that many others have.

Why do I preach against the Catholic Church so forcefully? I believe that we each have a calling. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, Peter to the Jews. I believe that Mary Magdalene and the woman caught in adultery probably had a strong heart for prostitutes and other outcasts. I believe that the man with a withered hand probably had a strong desire to see those with missing limbs and leprosy reached with the knowledge of the Gospel.

God, in my opinion, uses our past as a catalyst for our futures. Many people who were drug dealers, after becoming saved, go into the inner cities, etc. I was born and bred, brought up in the Catholic Church, for a REASON.

I do not hate Catholics...in fact...I love them very much. My Dad RIGHT NOW is a Catholic AS I SPEAK. My Grandmother RIGHT NOW is a Catholic AS I SPEAK...as is the rest of my family on my whole dad's side.

My dad told me that "your Grandmother would roll over if she heard you left the Catholic Church". Family must not come before Christ. My brother and my mother are those who hear the Word of God and keep it. I love my family...but I love Christ Jesus much more...He gave me my family.

My parents were not allowed to marry unless the children (me and my brothers) were to be brought up Catholic. My mother agreed. She is a Protestant by heritage...but wouldn't know what the word meant if you asked her. I pray that that will change in the latter end.

I believe that God loves irony. I was born a Catholic only to be born-again in opposition.

Love the people...hate the doctrine.

Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.

"Then understood they how that He bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the DOCTRINE OF THE PHARISEES AND SADDUCEES."-Matthew 16:12

[Fiosh]

Fiosh...I will go to my death preaching against the Catholic Church.  I pray that I will die at the hands of the Jesuits...God willing.  Lord knows that many others have.

Why do I preach against the Catholic Church so forcefully?  I believe that we each have a calling.  Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, Peter to the Jews.  I believe that Mary Magdalene and the woman caught in adultery probably had a strong heart for prostitutes and other outcasts.  I believe that the man with a withered hand probably had a strong desire to see those with missing limbs and leprosy reached with the knowledge of the Gospel.

God, in my opinion, uses our past as a catalyst for our futures.  Many people who were drug dealers, after becoming saved, go into the inner cities, etc.  I was born and bred, brought up in the Catholic Church, for a REASON. 

I do not hate Catholics...in fact...I love them very much.  My Dad RIGHT NOW is a Catholic AS I SPEAK.  My Grandmother RIGHT NOW is a Catholic AS I SPEAK...as is the rest of my family on my whole dad's side. 

My dad told me that "your Grandmother would roll over if she heard you left the Catholic Church".  Family must not come before Christ.  My brother and my mother are those who hear the Word of God and keep it.  I love my family...but I love Christ Jesus much more...He gave me my family.

My parents were not allowed to marry unless the children (me and my brothers) were to be brought up Catholic.  My mother agreed.  She is a Protestant by heritage...but wouldn't know what the word meant if you asked her.  I pray that that will change in the latter end.

I believe that God loves irony.  I was born a Catholic only to be born-again in opposition.

Love the people...hate the doctrine.

Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.

"Then understood they how that He bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the DOCTRINE OF THE PHARISEES AND SADDUCEES."-Matthew 16:12

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My dear HC,

Maybe you were born into the Catholic Church to prepare you to witness TO those Catholics who need to ignite a passion for Jesus.

There are many in the RCC, who although they know the truth, do not have a fire that burns in their heart as you do.

I was born in the RCC. I was also "born again" ---in the RCC. And, I continue to grow in my relationship with Jesus as my personal Saviour--- in the RCC.

Regarding Matthew 16:12....

if you read this in context Jesus was teaching the Apostles to trust in His word. The Pharisees and Sadducees did not believe in Jesus' Divinity, nor in His teachings. The RCC does.

Also, if you read on, in the very next passage, Jesus makes Peter the "rock" on which He will build His Church and gives Peter the keys to the kingdom.

I continue to believe this; you do not.

Peace to you,

Fiosh

[halifaxchristian]

Fiosh...I will go to my death preaching against the Catholic Church.

[Fiosh]

Halifax said:

"I do not believe that Catholics have the right Jesus nor do they believe in His teachings. I have said this repeatedly. The Rock that the Church is built on is Christ Himself...not Peter. And I have also said this repeatedly."

Jesus said, " Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona!...And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church"

I didn't say it, the RCC didn't say it, Jesus said it.

YES, Jesus is the foundation. And Jesus is the One who builds HIS church. But Jesus establishes Peter as the earthly rock.

Peter can only be the rock because Jesus is the first rock.

Just as we can only be priests, prophets and kings thru Jesus.

Peace my brother,

Fiosh

[halifaxchristian]

Halifax said:

"I do not believe that Catholics have the right Jesus nor do they believe in His teachings. I have said this repeatedly. The Rock that the Church is built on is Christ Himself...not Peter. And I have also said this repeatedly."

Jesus said, " Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona!...And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church"

I didn't say it, the RCC didn't say it, Jesus said it.

YES, Jesus is the foundation. And Jesus is the One who builds HIS church.  But Jesus establishes Peter as the earthly rock.

Peter can only be the rock because Jesus is the first rock.

Just as we can only be priests, prophets and kings thru Jesus.

Peace my brother,

Fiosh

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Thou art Peter (petros...small pebble, piece of a rock) and upon this Rock (Me) I will build My Church.

Clearly, Jesus' words "this Rock" is in reference to Himself. The phraseology involved is obviously reflective and supports this interpretation. We must rightly divide the Bible and the whole of Scripture supports Jesus Christ being the Rock...not Peter. God doesn't give us single verses to support doctrines...He gives us a body of truth.