Pax

The first three sentences are great!

LOL. Show me in the Bible where we are to be "catechised" by the church. Hmmm. I've heard of being chastised by the Lord, but catechised is a new one to me. That's right I forgot you pick up the bible and interpret it how ever you wish and then start another Church. Show me where in the Bible is says that we should have 30,000 different Churchs, ordain women pastors, what role if any homosexual clergy should have in church, Sola Scriptora etc. No where does it say these things but this is happening thoughout all 30,000 denominations of Protestanism througout the world. Where as there is one Catholic Church, which is an objective truth that cannot be denied by anyone except the ignorant.

No where in the Catchism does it say we become Gods. I feel sorry for that you were never properly catechised in the Catholic Church as I believe you stated earlier that you were born and raised in the Catholic Church. Unfortunantly this happens.

I was raised Baptist and really didn't have a true understanding of Chruch history or theology until the age of 30 at which time I converted to Catholicism. Your link above is nothing more than Jack chick anti-Catholic propaganda. One fact that most all of you are either haven't addressed or haven't thought about is how the foundational doctrines of the Catholic Church haven't changed in 2,000 years which only bolstered the argument that the Catholic Church is the fullness of the truth and the one Church established by Jesus Christ. Yes, there have been a few bad Popes, but even these bad Popes didn't try and change the Church. The Magesterium is the longest running Instutuion in the world. Don't you think the Magesterium would broken up by now if it wasn't the foundational teaching tool of the Church? So the next time your Church is taking a vote to change its stance on homosexuality, women pastors, abortion, embryonic stem cell research, contraception, once saved always saved, rapture, etc. just remember that there is ONE Church out there that hasn't changed in 2,000 years and never will. I have the peace of mind knowing that I don't have to worry about my Parish getting a new priest and wondering what he is going to change.

Where I am located the farmers are planting wheat left and right because the Australians had a horrible crop. The price of wheat is also very high, so the U.S. farmers are benefiting from the Australian drought.

It is very difficult to convience a non-Christian that homosexuality is wrong using the Bible. They don't care what the Bible has to say and frankly don't believe it. It would be like me reading you a book on witchcraft and telling you what I believe ( I am a Christian but using this for an example). One has to use other means besides the Bible to convience a person that Homosexuality is wrong. Then later down the line they may be open to the Bible.

Sex isn't only for procreation and this isn't what I am claiming. Marriage is a multi-leveled unity with the cornerstone being procreation. When a married couple, man and women have sexual relations they become one organism open to producing life. Homesexual marriage cannot do this, thus cannot be in a valid marriage. Our recent culture tends to view relationships as arising only from our own consent or arbitrary decision, and having only what structure we arbitrarily deem to bestow on them. Thats why we have the debate of same sex marriage, or for that matter it could be polygamy. Ironic things is that throughout the histroy of the world we as a people havn't had to define what marriage is. It was automatically known to involve one man and one women. Within the last 15 years and really the last 5 years we have had this ground swell of people who now are trying to redefine marriage. If we could go back in time and tell St. Peter, Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther that we would be trying to convience people that marriage could also include two men, they would be thouroughly disgusted.

Therefore, sterile and elderly couples cannot be married either, because there is no chance of them producing children. I'd also like to as Observer of Dreams a question, because he favors banning sodomy: How would you enforce that law? AAA, Go back and read my earlier post, I clearly stated that a couple who can not conceive due to a advanced age or medical reason are still in a valid marriage because they are open to procreation which expresses and actualizes their marriage.

Why can't two men or two women ever get truely marriage? Marriage is inherently connected to procreation, and two men having sexual liaisons with each other will never produce children. Even if a couple who cannot have children due to age or a medical circustance (not contraception) are still in a valid marriage because they are open to procreation and this expresses and actulizes their marriage. The traditional doctrine that sexual intercourse consummates marriage means that marriage is a bodily, as well as an emotional and spiritual, unity.

Hello Billie, Hows the hunting in Lousiana? Has Darin been shooting any ducks? It is cold up here so tell Darin all the ducks will be heading his way. I will briefly answer you questions. The person above is trying to say that the Vatican knew that certain priests were molesting children and doing nothing about this???? Does that sound very realistic. As we all know there are giong to be a certain element within each denomination that have issues with of sexual purity. (Evangelicals can relate this to their fallen leader Ted Haggard) This is very unfortunante, but is a reality. There were some dioceses around the country that more priest than others that were accussed with sexual contact with children. My diocese had not one case. Some of these cases where unfounded where people were seeking money and thought they could jump on the bandwagon and sue to make money. Other cases were proven and the preist were often times either put in jail or the occurance happened 30 years ago and the priest was deceased. In a few cases the Bishop of the diocese had moved a problem priest from parish to parish not addressing the problem. Might also add that the statistics showed that the majority of cases involved teenage boys, showing a major link to homosexuality. Lesson learned from here was not to ordain priest that are either homosexuals or have that tendency. This of course was wrong and the priest and the bishop should of been punished. But to say that the Vatican knew a priest was molesting children and doing nothing about this is absured. You must also remember that the Vatican oversees all the dioceses in the world, not just the United States. It would be impossible to know exactly what is happening in each parish around the world. But the media loves to bash the Church so it sounded really good to say the Vatican covered up pedopdhile priests. No the Vatican never came out and publically denounced Hitler, but you have to understand the situation. At one time during WWII the Pope was under arrest by the Nazis who occupied Italy. It would be very hard for the Pope to hold a press conference and denounce the Nazis who have him under house arrest. Not to mention how many Priest, nuns and other Catholics would be killed if he did so. It is well documented how many thousands of Jews and others the Vatican help escape concentration camps during WWII.

I don't trust the Vatican at all so this is no surprise to me. One need only recall the late Pope John Paul's cover up of his pedophile priesthood and his blatant anti American/pro Islamic stance; not to mention the complicity of the Holy See with the nazis in WWII. I guess I just basically have a problem with a mere man being clothed in gold, installed in a palace, and called God's representative on earth. His one true representative was a poor carpenter who cared nothing for these things. This is nothing more than anti-Catholic propaganda, but hey we are all entitled to an opinion! No, Pax, my comments are not anti-Catholic for the simple reason that I am not anti-Catholic. I'm sorry if I offended anyone; that was not my intention. The statements I made are based on fact and easily verified. There are hundreds of millions of good Catholics all over the planet. The problem lies the Vatican. I hope that Pope Benedict breaks away from the appeasement of Islam, which is not a religion but a cult, unlike his predecessor. Pope John Paul was an admirable man in many ways but he was just that, a man, subject to error and folly. Like all the rest of us. I'm sorry, but saying Pope John Paul covered up pedophile priests is nothing more than anti-Catholic propaganda. You then go on to say that he was an honorable man....hmmmm would an honorable man cover up pedophile priest? Then you go on to say that the Vatican was o.k. with the Nazis in WWII etc. All of this is anti-Catholic propaganda that can easily be refruted. I would love to cover each point you listed above, but won't. However, anytime someone on here misrepresents the Catholic Church, I am going to call them on it. Nothing personal, just standing up for the Church.

I don't trust the Vatican at all so this is no surprise to me. One need only recall the late Pope John Paul's cover up of his pedophile priesthood and his blatant anti American/pro Islamic stance; not to mention the complicity of the Holy See with the nazis in WWII. I guess I just basically have a problem with a mere man being clothed in gold, installed in a palace, and called God's representative on earth. His one true representative was a poor carpenter who cared nothing for these things. This is nothing more than anti-Catholic propaganda, but hey we are all entitled to an opinion!

Keilan, You are way beyond your years in thinking. Most 18 year olds are playing video games, partying, or watching MTV. Its nice to see a young adult who is putting some serious thought into theology. Your question is a very good one and I am sure many others have either struggled with this idea.....I myself did for a while. Looking at this philosophically one would first ask, what is the truth???? Do I believe what the Methodist preacher tells me, or do I believe what the Baptist preacher tells, me or do I believe what the Catholic Priest tells me??? I can gurantee you that each person will have a different answer for each question you ask him. The next question one would ask is, did God leave us here on Earth without the fullness of the truth? Would an all loving, all knowing, all powerful God leave us here in a cloudy mist to figure out for ouselves the fullness of the truth? The most logical answer would be No. Do the divisions within Christianity bring us closer to the fullness of the truth or do they muddy the water more and move us farther from the fullness of the truth? One doens't have to look very long into this before they realize that this is only confusing more people. With each splinter within denominations the truth becomes more spintered. Keilan keep up the good work.

It all comes down to culpability. If a person is mentally disabled they obviously can't comprehend as much as a person who is not disabled. This will play a part in their judgement. Remember, God is a merciful God.

I am happy that you get something beautiful from it. I studied Latin for 5 yrs and do love it also. But in God's House, where the unsaved come, it does nothing to enlighten them. It's like, "Come to my house and visit, but I don't want you to enter into my conversations with my Dad, or hear what He has to say to us, because you aren't really a part of us!" It seems in this day and age, where evangelization of the world is so urgent, that we could easily dispense with these religious trappings, and be a Church with the zeal to harvest the nations! Jesus is coming, folks, and He wants us to get the message out---plainly! ---with the same simplicity that He brought! I would agree with you , and this is probably one of the main reasons Vatican II allowed each country to say mass in vernacular. However, saying mass in Latin still represents a common unfied language within the Church and is very traditional. Yes, unified within the confines of Catholicism, but not for people outside it who desperately need the truth of Jesus Christ preached plainly. It is only for the "beauty" of it that it is retained...this is religion. God really despises religiosity, and that is my point. I would venture to say that those Catholic churches that preach the Gospel plainly and eschew that religious spirit, do well in evangelizing their neighbours. I understand what you are saying, floatingaxe. And, to some extent you are correct. If someone walked in off the street smack into the middle of a Latin Mass, they may very well be confused. Then again, they may be drawn in by the beauty of it. Sometimes we do things to evangelize. In fact, often we do things to evangelize. But, sometimes we do things purely to worship God with all our heart and soul. When a Catholic attends Mass it is not for the sole purpose of hearing the word preached---although that is a major part of it. A Catholic also attends Mass to pray and sing praise to his God. Blessings, Fiosh And don't forget the Eucharist. The center of the mass is the consecration of the Eucharist and then receiving the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ.

I am happy that you get something beautiful from it. I studied Latin for 5 yrs and do love it also. But in God's House, where the unsaved come, it does nothing to enlighten them. It's like, "Come to my house and visit, but I don't want you to enter into my conversations with my Dad, or hear what He has to say to us, because you aren't really a part of us!" It seems in this day and age, where evangelization of the world is so urgent, that we could easily dispense with these religious trappings, and be a Church with the zeal to harvest the nations! Jesus is coming, folks, and He wants us to get the message out---plainly! ---with the same simplicity that He brought! I would agree with you , and this is probably one of the main reasons Vatican II allowed each country to say mass in vernacular. However, saying mass in Latin still represents a common unfied language within the Church and is very traditional.

What do you see when you look at your image of Christ? A visible reminder of Christ and his sufferring which he did for us.

Do you see God when you look at that image of Christ? When I look at an image of Christ I see an artist's depiction of what he/she imagines Christ looks like. And this "artist's depiction" is what brings you closer to God? In a sense I suppose you could say that. Let me give you a real life example: In the entry of our church (I call it the vestibule) there is a life-sized Crucifix. That is, a cross with a statue depicting the crucified Christ. Every time I pass it, I kiss my fingers and touch them to the feet of the statue. In my heart I pray, " Dear Jesus, please forgive me for my sins that nailed you to that cross", or something similar. I KNOW the wood and plaster are not Jesus. But the crucifix calls to mind in a very vivid way the suffering of Jesus for my sake. I pray to the real Jesus, even though I kiss the statue as a symbol of my love and repentance. You may disagree and tell me that is wrong. But you cannot say that I am worshiping the statue. I know my own heart. Peace, Fiosh I bumped this one up for man. Man, we already had this conversation. F Oh MAN here we go again...

Latin is very much alive in our language today, so I wouldn't call it "dead". Before Vatican II all the Masses anywhere in the world were in Latin. So if an American went to Russia and attended mass they would know exactly what was going on. This was another example of a unfied Church. After Vatican II each country could have mass said in their respective languages. However, Latin is still the unfied Language spoken in the Church.

If you know your doctrines are correct and will not change, then you are not likely to ever second guess yourself or look at the doctrines objectively, as I had asked a few posts back. I would add that the difference is between you and me is that I know the Bible and my God will not change. Man-made doctrines will change. Eating meat on Fridays is a good example. I understand the current Pope is also wondering about going back to completely Latin masses and no more folk music or modern music, only the old-time hymns. Artslady, Catholics believe that the Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ. We are not going to second guess Jesus Christ. Eating meat on Friday is not a foundational dcotrine of faith, but rather a tradition. These can and have changed. Another example of this would be alter girls. There weren't alter girls until rather recently, not sure on the date. I can tell you that such doctrines of the Eucharist, Priesthood (men only), reconciliation, Purgaory, other Sacraments, these will never change, and haven't for 2,000 years. Purgatory happened sometime within 2000 yrs as it is not biblical in the least. It is a convenient little doctrine dreamed up my man/pope. Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, Says nothing about a waiting room, or a holding cell. FA, I resepctfully disagree, but will leave it at that. It is however a doctrine within Catholicism, and will never change.

If you know your doctrines are correct and will not change, then you are not likely to ever second guess yourself or look at the doctrines objectively, as I had asked a few posts back. I would add that the difference is between you and me is that I know the Bible and my God will not change. Man-made doctrines will change. Eating meat on Fridays is a good example. I understand the current Pope is also wondering about going back to completely Latin masses and no more folk music or modern music, only the old-time hymns. Artslady, Catholics believe that the Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ. We are not going to second guess Jesus Christ. Eating meat on Friday is not a foundational dcotrine of faith, but rather a tradition. These can and have changed. Another example of this would be alter girls. There weren't alter girls until rather recently, not sure on the date. I can tell you that such doctrines of the Eucharist, Priesthood (men only), reconciliation, Purgaory, other Sacraments, these will never change, and haven't for 2,000 years.

AAA, Is your thread over with?? I would answer you first question by saying that Christ is all knowing, perfect, and sinless. Would Christ create a Church that isn't infallible? By this I am talking about the foundational doctrines, faith and morals. Would this all perfect God create a Church that isn't correct? The answer is no. Just as the Bible is the inspired word of God and complete, the doctrines within His Church will also be correct. This doesn't mean the people are perfect. We are all sinners. The Crusades is are a very interesting topic and one that should be researched. I can tell you that the secular world, (public schools, colleges) are going to tell you that the Catholics went on crusades and killed all kinds of people to spread the Catholic faith. This is very much a distortion of what really took place and what I would call a Catholic urban legend. Usually someone will say to me "The Crusades were an unwarranted Catholic invasion of an innocent Islamic People." The reality is that Islam from Arabia had been militarily aggressive for centuries. Jerusalem was conquered in A.D. 638, and most of northern Africa by 700. Spain was conquered by 711, and it was until the victory of Charles Martel at Tours and Poitier in 732 that the Islamic advance in Western Europe ended. The rise of the Islamic Seljuk Turks in 1027 was the direct cause of the first Crusade. Crusades were called in defense of Christianity from Islam (sound familiar). If this wouldn't of taken place Islam would of been spread throughout Western Europe by the sword.

Great post Smalcald. I am going to get somewhat personal with all of you, something I really haven't ever done. In 1997 I married a Catholic women. I was Baptist and had no intention of ever becoming Catholic (or becoming a mackerel snapper as I liked to say). Within a year and a half my wife was leaving me and moving in with another man. This incident totally brought me to my knees and was by far the most difficult thing I have ever gone through in my life. Something that really brought me closer to Christ and a better understanding of the Catholic faith was the fact that we had to go through an annulment process. I went back to my home town and talked with my former Baptist preacher. I asked him about divorce in his Baptist Church. I specifically asked him if he would remarry a divorced person, "he said yes, unfortuantly this is quite common." I said under what circumstances, only if one member committed adultry? His answer, "It all depends, but bascially its up to me to decide." I then asked him how many times do you allow people to remarry in the Baptist church? He said, "well there really isn't a set number, some people remarry several times, which I hate to see but this is allowed." I then asked do you do any type of marriage prep to see if the couple is ready for marriage? He said, "no not really, I might meet with them once or twice before the marriage, but it isn't something formal." He then went on to tell that this is one area that he appreciated about the Catholic church. The fact that it has formal marriage prep, as well as an engaged encounter weekend retreat. I then talked to my local Parish priest, I wasn't a Catholic at the time, but did attend Catholic Church. I asked him the same questions. He then went on to tell me about the annulment process. Even though I wasn't Catholic this impressed me. The Church was taking marriage serious enough to have a tribunal review how the marriage was handeled to decide whether or not it qualified as a valid marriage. This process would help the person, such as myself to understand what went wrong in the marriage and not to make the same mistake again if I received a declaration of nullity. From the time my wife left it was one year until the divorce was final by the state. I dragged my heals in the process hoping for a reconciliation. The Church then makes the couple wait one more year after the state officially declares the marriage to be civially over. Then the annulment process takes at a minimum one year from then. So it took over three years from the time my wife left to see whether or not my marriage was valid. During this time I converted to Catholicism, and was instructed by the priest not to date other women. He said, "even though the state has civially ended your marriage, you are still married to your wife in the eyes of God." You cannot even think about dating another women until the annulment process is over and your marriage is found to be invalid. If the tribunal finds your marriage valid, you are married for life even if your wife is living with another man you cannot date or remarry. To do so will be adultry. I was completely impressed with seriousness of the matter. It wasn't like, hey your wife has left you for another man, go out and find another women. After three years I received a letter in the mail that said that after review from one diocese, and double checked by another, this marriage was invalid. The letter I recieved from the tribunal said: "As you are aware, an investigation has been in process concerning the validity of your marriage to ______. After a complete investigation, it is the decision of the Tribunal that the marriage was ecclesiastically null and void. This has been confirmed by our Diocesan Tribunal of the Second Instance. This decision is for religious purpose only and has no civil or legal effects. There is a Vetitum (prohibition) attached to the above decision. Therefore, you must receive special counseling (in addition to the normal premaritial counseling) before you may attempt a marriage in the Catholic Church. If you have any questions regarding the Vetitum counseling, please contact Deacon _______ at the above address and phone number." I fill so blessed that the Church made me go through this process. It helped me in many ways, one in paticular is that I had to wait to date or remarry. I see many people who are going through a divorce jump right back into a relationship and marriage. They are hurting so bad they need the support. Unfortunantly they ususally haven't had a chance to heal from the emotional trauma and are a laying a foundation for another divorce. Secondly the Church stepped in and said, hey you need to go to couseling as did my x-wife. This was to help us not make the same mistakes we did in the past. I have sinced remarried to a wonderful women and we are expecting our first child in April.