A challenage for you Apologetics

[Pipit]

Or it came into existence, just like we see constantly. The more interesting questions are about dimensions, but these are very complex.

I find it amusing that you can believe that matter just spontaniously appears, yet you seem to hold the idea that there can be a creator behind matter as contemptable. What faith you have to believe that something comes from nothing... it must rival our faith in God as the creator of all things! And your statement of it being complex but you making no effort to explain it stands as a sign that a) you hold us in centempt in regards to our intellegent (which would make us ask you why are you bothering to debate with people you consider stupid? You already labelled us thus, why make yourself stupid by wasting your time) or b) you really don't know how to explain it yourself.

Things werent moving outward, things were moving away from each other. Space was, and still is, expanding. Science is not baffled, gravity pulls things together, and we see big clumps of things, just like we expect to.

Hmm.. things were moving away from each other, yet, gravity pulls things together. Hmmm... space is still expanding, but there is gravity, so things in space are being pulled together. It sounds like the equivalent of a legless man trying to walk up the escalator that goes down... especially when one considers that if things started at one point, densely all packed together, then gravity would have been confined to that one point, and everything (because everything emits a gravitational pull) would have stayed together and never have spread apart to begin with... unless there was something to cause it to spread apart.

So, gravity should have actually kept the universe from expanding in the first place. Kind of suggests that the universe started already spread out...

Edited September 13, 2005 by Pipit

[Token Atheist]

You guys must be really bored. You don't believe in God yet you spend a great deal of time on these boards. What does it matter to you what anyone believes. In your eyes there is no god, so what difference does it make?

That's actually a very interesting question. Why does it matter to us what anyone believes?

It doesn't. People can believe what they like.

However, it does matter to us what people do - and what they try to make us do.

For example, take gay marriage. Many Christians are opposing gay marriage because their religion tells them that homosexuality is a sin.

So whilst it does indeed not matter what people believe, if those people make laws that might affect me because of those beliefs, then it does matter.

I expect that if the Catholics (the largest religious group in America) were trying to make it law that "confession" was compulsory and that the Catholic doctrine of Papal infallibility should be taught as fact in schools, you guys would be the first to complain.

Well, imagine how you would feel about that.

That is exactly the way atheists feel when they see Christians campaigning for compulsory prayers, or campaigning that Creationism should be taught as fact in schools.

So - as I said, it does not matter to me what people believe - but it does matter what they do because of those beliefs.

Your questions expose your ignorance of the christian faith.

Why do you assume that atheists are ignorant of the Christian faith? A great many atheists spent years as active Christians before leaving the religion.

Trying to prove God exists or doesn't exist is a waste of time. I can't prove to you He does and you can't prove to me that He doesn't. So what's the point?

Whilst it is not possible to prove that no divine being of any kind exists, I am confident that I can demonstrate that God (as described by Christians) doesn't exist. However, I expect that such a proof would be considered "blasphemous" and would not be allowed on this site.

[NITE OWL]

If you can prove that God does not in fact exist, why aren't you taking that to the media? You could put a stop to all the lies. You could be the man that brought down God.

You mentioned gay marriage. You should know that it is only a matter of time before gay marriage becomes a reality.

Whatever the catholics do is their business. I am not of the catholic faith. If they want to force their beliefs on others, again their business not mine. The way the world looks at christians, I don't see that happening.

If you are being persecuted by the christians, how is being here going to change that?

[Joy in the Journey]

That is exactly the way atheists feel when they see Christians campaigning for compulsory prayers, or campaigning that Creationism should be taught as fact in schools.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yet we should just accept it without complaint that you teach evolution as fact ?

[Token Atheist]

Has anybody willingly died for Santa Claus?  Has anybody given up a lifetime of riches and prominence for a myth?

Not for Santa - Santa was a bad example - but they have for Buddha, and for Jim Jones, and for Allah, and for Kali, and for David Koresh, and for many, many others.

People die (and give up all they have) for myths and lies all the time...

[Ovedya]

For example, take gay marriage. Many Christians are opposing gay marriage because their religion tells them that homosexuality is a sin.

Actually, many (if not, most) Christians oppose the gay lifestyle. Opposition to gay marriage is just an extension of this - just as gay marriage is an extension of the lifestyle which we believe is contrary to a holy God and to nature. However, one need not be religious to understand that homosexuality is in opposition to the fundamentals of procreation. Then that's another subject entirely.

So whilst it does indeed not matter what people believe, if those people make laws that might affect me because of those beliefs, then it does matter.

All laws are fundamentally based upon a set of beliefs, aren't they?

That is exactly the way atheists feel when they see Christians campaigning for compulsory prayers, or campaigning that Creationism should be taught as fact in schools.

First of all, Christians aren't campagning for anything that wasn't orignially there in the first place. Prior to the secularization of the public schools in the mid 70s prayer in schools was not compulsory, but it was accepted. Also, Creationism is just as valid as evolution for discussion in public schools.

So - as I said, it does not matter to me what people believe - but it does matter what they do because of those beliefs.

Everybody acts on the basis of what they believe. With regard to various laws, etc., in our society, we act on the basis of majority opinion. Since faith in God and Chistian morals seem to be in the majority in this country, it is not at all wrong to enact laws that at least reflect those morals.

[Ovedya]

Has anybody willingly died for Santa Claus?

[Pipit]

Question for the athiests out there:

Do you believe that saying there is no God is an absolute statement? If no, then you are not really an athiest, but an agnostic... because your statement that there is no God is a 'maybe' statement.

To make an absolute statement, you need to have absolute knowledge. For me to say there is no gold in China, I have to know what is under every rock, what is in every China man's mouth, and what is in every piece of jewelry. If there is even a little bit of gold, my statement is false.

Now, if you are to make the statement that there is no God, you will have to have absolute knowledge of the universe. Knowledge about everything, from the thoughts of Alexander the Great when he was three years old to the number of hairs on a Tibetian Yak to even more difficult questions.

Now, lets say you have an incredible 1% knowledge of everything there is to know. Would it be fair to say that in the 99% of the knowledge you haven't yet come across that God could exist? If so, you are not an athiest, but an agnostic. If you don't believe that God can exist in the 99% of knowledge you don't know, it begs much of your intellegence and...

now, please understand that i am not in any way suggesting that athiests or those who claim to be athiests are ignorant. I have many really intellengent friends who I enjoy speaking to who are athiests. I do want to give you something to think about though, as you make the statement that there is no God, or as you attempt to prove that He does not exist.

[Token Atheist]

If you can prove that God does not in fact exist, why aren't you taking that to the media? You could put a stop to all the lies. You could be the man that brought down God.

Why would the media be interested?

"Atheist demonstrates non-existence of God. Christians dismiss his claims, ignore him and carry on as before."

It's hardly news, is it.

You mentioned gay marriage. You should know that it is only a matter of time before gay marriage becomes a reality.

Only because you guys are failing to stop it.

Whatever the catholics do is their business. I am not of the catholic faith. If they want to force their beliefs on others, again their business not mine.

It is your business if you are the one they are trying to force them on.

If you are being persecuted by the christians, how is being here going to change that?

Well, for a start it can humanise us - and counteract the teachings of Pastors and Preachers that brand us all as immoral monsters to be shunned.

When Christians see us as being just like them, except for believing a few different things, they are less likely to see us as the "enemy".

[Token Atheist]

Actually, many (if not, most) Christians oppose the gay lifestyle.  Opposition to gay marriage is just an extension of this - just as gay marriage is an extension of the lifestyle which we believe is contrary to a holy God and to nature. However, one need not be religious to understand that homosexuality is in opposition to the fundamentals of procreation.  Then that's another subject entirely.

I am always confused by references to "the gay lifestyle". My straight friends and my gay friends all have exactly the same lifestyle, with the exception of what they do in bed in the privacy of their own homes.

I hardly see how what you do in bed - say three times a week for half an hour - can be said to define one's "lifestyle", when one is behaving in exactly the same manner as the next person for the rest of the time.

I, for example, probably spend more time in the average week drinking tea than I do making love to my partner - but I never hear people talking about the "tea drinking lifestyle".

All laws are fundamentally based upon a set of beliefs, aren't they?

Most derive from simple empathy to fellow humans, rather than any specific set of beliefs.

First of all, Christians aren't campagning for anything that wasn't orignially there in the first place. Prior to the secularization of the public schools in the mid 70s prayer in schools was not compulsory, but it was accepted.

Precedence does not make things right. After all, until the last century, owning slaves was not compulsory but was accepted.

Also, Creationism is just as valid as evolution for discussion in public schools.

I think that's a topic for another thread...

Everybody acts on the basis of what they believe.  With regard to various laws, etc., in our society, we act on the basis of majority opinion.

Acting on the majority opinion and not protecting the minority opinion is what is known as the "tyranny of the majority".

A cute metaphor is that pure democracy is like three wolves and a sheep voting on what is for dinner.

A less cute (but very cliched) example is that in Nazi Germany the majority opinion was that Jews were sub-human and that the moral thing to do was to destroy them for the good of society.