Ovedya Posted September 14, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted September 14, 2005 This is not saying that the following text is an eyewitness report of specific events. Actually, you're right, Token Atheist! It's saying that John and the apostles have heard, seen, and handled the Son of God, who was from the beginning! Verses 2-3, and my comments: "And the life was manifested..." Which life? The Word of life, who is Jesus Christ (John 1:1-4; 14) "...and we have seen..." Eyewitness account. "...and testify..." The same Greek word as a sworn testimony. "...and report to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us. That which we have seen and heard we report also to you that you also may have fellowship with us, and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ." What you stated with regard to the verses in Peter being psedoepigraphic is complete nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted September 14, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted September 14, 2005 Hmmm....Well now, it appears that your national anthem has no less than 10 recitations of the Word "God" in it! Yeah - but no-one knows the words... (I prefer the Sex Pistols' version myself, anyway!) Also, I've found that the U.K. has recently been requiring immigrants to recite a pledge of allegiance before they are granted citizenship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Token Atheist Posted September 14, 2005 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 69 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/08/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/01/1969 Share Posted September 14, 2005 What you stated with regard to the verses in Peter being psedoepigraphic is complete nonsense. Well, for a start, the text of 2 Peter is written in fluent educated Greek, using formal Greek rhetorical devices and so on. The apostle Peter (assuming he existed at all and is not just a character in the Jesus story) was an illiterate Galillean fisherman. If Peter had got a scribe to write for him, that might explain the fluent Greek - but would not explain the idioms used. We would see Peter's Aramaic idioms translated into Greek, not classical Hellenistic idioms. And that is just the barest start of why it could not have been written by Peter. There is much, much more evidence (certainly much more than I have time to post). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted September 14, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted September 14, 2005 The apostle Peter (assuming he existed at all and is not just a character in the Jesus story) was an illiterate Galillean fisherman.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Or so you assume. What makes you think he was illiterate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Token Atheist Posted September 14, 2005 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 69 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/08/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/01/1969 Share Posted September 14, 2005 And here is the website from which that quote was taken: http://www.centreforcitizenship.org/pledge.html And the homepage: http://www.centreforcitizenship.org/home.html Which claims, "The Centre for Citizenship looks forward to a Britain in which the will of the people is supreme and in which the people are the source of the government's legitimacy. A Britain in which the people delegate their power to Members of Parliament but only for a limited period and for limited purposes. On this Web site we draw attention to some of the evils and some of the absurdities of British life. We try to counter the fiction that by clinging to feudal ways we protect ourselves from the evils of the modern world. And we promote practical ideas for reform of the government of this country. We hope also to offer a source of strength for those in Britain who want to replace a "democratic monarchy" with a citizens' democracy. Although our objectives are wider than the achievement of a republic, we do give great emphasis to that cause. In part that is because until now republicans in Britain have failed to make a wide impression. If they have tried to advance the cause, they have done so in a rather elitist, "behind the scenes" way. And they have chosen the miscalculated and confusing approach of expressing respect for those who benefit from the institutions that those republicans say they despise." Now where do you suppose that Oath of Allegiance came from? Is it a complete fabrication? Almost certainly. The site is run by British republicans who are anti-monarchy. The references to "Liz Windsor" and so on on the "pledge" page (and such things as the pledgee agreeing to always be a "second class citizen") mark it as obvious satire. Seems to me that you might be one who would support what this organization is seeking to do, at least partially. I'm no republican. I support the monarchy. As far as your national anthem is concerned, I trust that at least most Britains are aware of the "God save the queen part." After all, not even the Sex Pistols were not ignorant enough to leave that part out of their song with the same title. I grant you that. No-one ever remembers the verses about "Crushing rebellious Scots", though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted September 14, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted September 14, 2005 Grace to you, Joh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted September 14, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted September 14, 2005 Almost certainly. The site is run by British republicans who are anti-monarchy. The references to "Liz Windsor" and so on on the "pledge" page (and such things as the pledgee agreeing to always be a "second class citizen") mark it as obvious satire. Well I guess you got me there. I'm not English, so obviously I wouldn't "get" this type of satire. English satire sometimes is so extremely foriegn to me that I wonder if anybody outside the U.K. ever understands it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Token Atheist Posted September 14, 2005 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 69 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/08/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/01/1969 Share Posted September 14, 2005 (edited) Grace to you, Joh 19:35 And he that hath seen hath borne witness, and his witness is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye also may believe. Once again, we have no claim to be an eyewitness account. Merely a claim from an anonymous author that the anonymous person who told the author what happened was telling the truth. An Eyewitness to this account being the only Disciple to personally stand at the Foot of the Cross and bear witness to this death. Trust me the Pharisee's sure did not dispute His Death either. They stood and watched, mocking. Then they had the Roman Governor seal the Tomb to ensure His death. They certainly were afraid of something??? Â Well, according to the story, that's what happened. Edited September 14, 2005 by Token Atheist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted September 14, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted September 14, 2005 John wrote the book of john. Don't be ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted September 14, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted September 14, 2005 Grace to you, John wrote the Book of John . He himself was bearing witness to what he did see. You crack me up Token. So this made up story that cost everyone of the original writers of the Gospels their lives? Was worth dying for, why? So pray tell me their motivation in often times being Crucified, Thrown from the Temple Roof, and even Boiled in Oil. Not to mention Jailed, Beaten, and Tortured as they advanced this lie. What gain was in it for this band of cowards who abandoned their Master to cook up a false story? Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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