fenwar Posted October 5, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 161 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 5, 2005 (edited) Yes, I sin. But I'm not the one claiming to be born of God. How arrogant of you to claim to be, and then brag about how you sin everyday. Does God have a sinful nature? Just because you have decided to do the right thing when it is convenient for you doesn't mean that your nature has changed. And you can find all the loopholes you want that back up your false claim, but it doesn't change the truth. I don't think Fiosh is claiming to be "born of God". The concept that Christians should be immediately "born of God" or "born again" is a modern one, arising from an unfortunately rigid, literalist application of certain passages from John without properly recognising the metaphors they were using, or the audiences and situations they were addressing. I've tried to show by analogy that the apparent "contradiction" is simply describing a very real "tension" in the life of a Christian, between their compulsion to sin and their desire to become more like Jesus. Do my earlier posts on this thread make sense to you? Fenwar Edited October 5, 2005 by fenwar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted October 5, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 5, 2005 Yes, I sin. But I'm not the one claiming to be born of God. How arrogant of you to claim to be, and then brag about how you sin everyday. Does God have a sinful nature? Just because you have decided to do the right thing when it is convenient for you doesn't mean that your nature has changed. And you can find all the loopholes you want that back up your false claim, but it doesn't change the truth. I don't think Fiosh is claiming to be "born of God". The concept that Christians should be immediately "born of God" or "born again" is a modern one, arising from an unfortunately rigid, literalist application of certain passages from John without properly recognising the metaphors they were using, or the audiences and situations they were addressing. I've tried to show by analogy that the apparent "contradiction" is simply describing a very real "tension" in the life of a Christian, between their compulsion to sin and their desire to become more like Jesus. Do my earlier posts on this thread make sense to you? Fenwar <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, what he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruah brit Posted October 5, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 280 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 5, 2005 (edited) Yes, I sin. But I'm not the one claiming to be born of God. How arrogant of you to claim to be, and then brag about how you sin everyday. Does God have a sinful nature? Just because you have decided to do the right thing when it is convenient for you doesn't mean that your nature has changed. And you can find all the loopholes you want that back up your false claim, but it doesn't change the truth. I don't think Fiosh is claiming to be "born of God". The concept that Christians should be immediately "born of God" or "born again" is a modern one, arising from an unfortunately rigid, literalist application of certain passages from John without properly recognising the metaphors they were using, or the audiences and situations they were addressing. I've tried to show by analogy that the apparent "contradiction" is simply describing a very real "tension" in the life of a Christian, between their compulsion to sin and their desire to become more like Jesus. Do my earlier posts on this thread make sense to you? Fenwar <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, what he said. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Jo 3 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. Jo 5 1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1Jo 5 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. Ro 8 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Denise Edited October 5, 2005 by ruah brit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted October 5, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Tubal, Please re-phrase your last comments in a manner that it at least befitting a human being with high morals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted October 5, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 5, 2005 Hey TC, If I was a real person and had feelings, you would have hurt them. Good thing I'm only letters on your screen. F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenwar Posted October 6, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 161 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 6, 2005 Jo 3 9Â Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. Jo 5 1Â Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1Jo 5 18Â We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. Ro 8 9Â But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. You are still using individual verses quoted out of context, as though they were simple "statements of fact". They're not. That's not what the Bible is. In that very same epistle, John writes: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. " What you need to look at is what John is actually addressing. Gnosticism suggests that the physical and spiritual worlds are completely separate. Gnostics excused their sin by suggesting that flesh - in fact the whole physical world - was intrinsically evil anyway. They habitually sinned yet claimed to be sinless on the grounds that their "spiritual" side was unaffected by their physical sinfulness. From the very first words John is setting himself against this worldview. God is present in the physical world as much as the spiritual, hence "what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands". He counters many other aspects of gnosticism including the "secret knowledge" its adherents claimed to have. "God is light and in him there is no darkness at all" - in other words, nothing hidden. In the passages you have quoted from, John is saying that Christians do not habitually sin, but his language does not rule out involuntary sin. Hence the importance of confession (see also James 5) which ensures that the Christian's sin does not go "excused" like the Gnostic's. He also says that the Gnostic's claim to be sinless is a lie. I have tried to keep this post brief so if anything doesn't make sense feel free to ask for more detail. I hope it's helpful. Fenwar PS: If you study these passages, you will see that "Saul" was converted instantly. He probably still had the letters in his pocket when he preached his first sermon! Converted instantly - yes. Where does it say he has been "born again"? Where does it say he never sinned again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruah brit Posted October 6, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 280 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 6, 2005 You are still using individual verses quoted out of context, as though they were simple "statements of fact". They're not. That's not what the Bible is. In that very same epistle, John writes: They are "simple statements of fact" and since they are facts they can stand alone with nothing else around them. However, they are not taken out of context. You are to repent and believe the gospel of Christ. Repent means to stop sinning against God. Christ cleanses you from all sin but you are asking for the wrath of God to come on you if you continue to be disobedient and sin wilfully. This following scripture does not say non believers but sons. Eph 5 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Denise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rick crompton Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 This is an article that is soon to be released on our website. I wanted to know if there is anything in it that is unbiblical . . . Most Christians believe they still posses a fallen nature that is constantly warring against the nature of God in them. I am continually amazed at how adamant and forceful the Church is when it comes to this subject. I can hardly tune into the Christian radio station where I live without hearing this doctrine constantly being pounded over and over and over again. Christians say things like, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rick crompton Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 This is an article that is soon to be released on our website. I wanted to know if there is anything in it that is unbiblical . . . Most Christians believe they still posses a fallen nature that is constantly warring against the nature of God in them. I am continually amazed at how adamant and forceful the Church is when it comes to this subject. I can hardly tune into the Christian radio station where I live without hearing this doctrine constantly being pounded over and over and over again. Christians say things like, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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