Any hope for the Jews ?

[Guest shiloh357]

Well that is not the question of this thread , the questions is do the jews go to hell because they did not accept Yeshua?

This has not been answered, and it wont until it already happens , so the answer is we dont for sure.

I sure wouldnt bet my life on it.

Yes, it has been answered, and it has been answered with the Bible. Jews CANNOT go to heaven without Christ. EVERYONE who dies without being born again will spend eternity in Hell, period. There is nothing to "discuss." The Bible does not leave it open to question or debate. Perhaps you don't like the answer, but the question has been answered.

[Smalcald]

Of course none of us can know who has faith at that time of death as the soul passes from this life. Thus we cannot say that Jews who today do not confess Christ are going to hell. We can say that if anyone persists in unbelief into eternity, they cannot be saved. But there is much we don't know about what happens in eternity or the microsecond of death.

I think it is a waste of time to consign whole groups of people to hell, it only hardens their heart. God is not insane and is not arbitrary; He is not the author of confusion, yet we don't always understand His ways. I hope every single Jew, Hindu, and Muslim are saved in the end, I hope heaven is overflowing and it will be.

[Guest shiloh357]

I agree with all that only through Christ is one saved.

But what I am not certain of is any sort of one formulaic way that Jesus will save us and create faith in us. Thus I do not judge nor make judgement on any person from the outside, including Jews about their eternal destination. In fact what does Paul tell us? He says do not say in your heart who will ascend to heaven or who will descend into the pit. There is a whole bunch we don't know about what happens at that twinkle between death and life, we don't know exactly how the Holy Spirit creates faith or why.

The Bible is not ambiguous about this at all. The Bible does not leave this issue open ended. Jesus said, to Nicodemus ( a Jew)

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

There is no question what will happen to unsaved Jews.

We can know for sure. The Bible leaves no question as to how a person is saved, and what will be eternal destiny of those who reject the Messiah

Smalcald, the verse you quoted comes from Romans 10:6. Paul is using that verse from Deuteronomy to make his point that salvation is in our heart and our mouth. If we believe in our heart, the Lord Jesus, and confess with our mouth that God has raised Him from the dead, we shall be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness and confession is made unto Salvation.

Paul goes on to say that there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek. God is rich unto all that call upon Him. He says, for whosoever calls upon the Name of the Lord, will be saved. Therefore, everyone who does not call upon the LORD, shall NOT be saved. Calling upon the Lord for salvation, and believing by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, and His resurrection from the dead is absolutely essential for salvation to take place.

God does not have a separate plan of redemption for anyone.

[Smalcald]

I agree Shilo, there is no separate plan and there is no salvation outside of Christ.

But that does not contradict anything I have said. Paul indeed tells us to worry about ourselves, that was the point of that verse that we are not to speculate on the salvation of others. No, there is no salvation for anyone outside of Christ. But no one understands the details of how the Holy Spirit creates faith and when. How do we know what happens at the moment of death?

All I am saying is that you cannot say to any individual when they are alive, you are going to Hell without a doubt, that is unbiblical to say. We can say that if you persist in your unbelief if you refuse to the bitter end to believe you will die in your sins and be put out. But we don't know who exactly will persist in their unbelief, we cannot tell. No one would have predicted that he first person in to be in heaven after the resurrection of Christ would be a Jewish thief, who never had any faith in God let alone Christ, right up until that moment of death on the cross.

I just don't think we should write people off when we don't know the mystery of how faith is created.

[Guest shiloh357]

I agree Shilo, there is no separate plan and there is no salvation outside of Christ.

But that does not contradict anything I have said. Paul indeed tells us to worry about ourselves, that was the point of that verse that we are not to speculate on the salvation of others. No, there is no salvation for anyone outside of Christ. But no one understands the details of how the Holy Spirit creates faith and when. How do we know what happens at the moment of death?

All I am saying is that you cannot say to any individual when they are alive, you are going to Hell without a doubt, that is unbiblical to say. We can say that if you persist in your unbelief if you refuse to the bitter end to believe you will die in your sins and be put out. But we don't know who exactly will persist in their unbelief, we cannot tell. No one would have predicted that he first person in to be in heaven after the resurrection of Christ would be a Jewish thief, who never had any faith in God let alone Christ, right up until that moment of death on the cross.

I just don't think we should write people off when we don't know the mystery of how faith is created.

All we need is "thus saith the LORD." It is not necessary to know what happens at the moment of death. A person gets one shot, one go around, and the second you die, your choice has been made. Faith comes from the Word of God. Romans 10 tells us that "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. It is the Word of God that creates the faith necessary to believe the Gospel.

Your remarks about Paul could not be more wrong. Paul was intensely concerned with the salvation of the Jewish people, and with all people. Paul wished himself accursed if it would save them. Romans 10:1 says, "Brethren, my hearts desire and prayer to God is for Israel, that they might be saved."

Paul's life was spent in intense concern for the salvation of others. You need to re-examine your handling of Romans 10. You are mistaken.

I can tell a person they are going to hell, as easy as I can tell a person that I know I have eternal life, and that I know for certain that I will spend eternity with Jesus when I die. The Word of God leaves us no uncertainty about these things.

[Smalcald]

No you are way off.

You cannot tell anyone that they are definitely going to hell. So you would have told the thief on the cross a couple of hours before Christ told him he was going to be in paradise that day, you are going to hell because he did not have faith, which he at that time did not have?

Evangelization and care and spreading the Word as Paul showed us, does not mean you speculate about who is going to hell, which is what Paul was talking about, in fact Paul told us in that verse to not speculate about who is going to hell.

Our faith is not some private little club that we control, only the Holy Spirit can create faith in Christ, we do not create that faith, we do NOT control the Holy Spirit, you cannot sit there and speculate about who the Holy Spirit will move to faith, who maybe will move to faith at that second of death.

There is no little formula for faith that we control with our particular little brand of Christian tradition here in the United States. Only faith in Christ saves we both agree, all we can say for certain is that if people persist in their unbelief into eternity, they will die and go to hell, we cannot predict who will do that and who will not.

[Guest shiloh357]

It is not a matter of predicting who will or will not receive Christ. That is not the point at all.

I can, on the authority of Scripture, tell an unsaved person that if they die tonight and have not recieved Christ, they will go to hell. There is no ambiguity about that in Scripture. The second you die without Christ, there is no hope. The Bible is clear on that.

It is not a matter of specualation. It is a matter of biblical fact.

[Old Timer]

Dan. 7:9,10

[Smalcald]

It is not a matter of predicting who will or will not receive Christ. That is not the point at all.

I can, on the authority of Scripture, tell an unsaved person that if they die tonight and have not recieved Christ, they will go to hell. There is no ambiguity about that in Scripture. The second you die without Christ, there is no hope. The Bible is clear on that.

It is not a matter of specualation. It is a matter of biblical fact.

I totally agree.

But you have no right nor responsiblity to tell someone that they will never have faith, that is left to the Lord alone, who alone knows if someone has true faith, we don't get that right. You could say that without a true and full faith in Christ you will perish in your sins, but you personally can say nothing about the state of someone elses' eternal salvation before the time for judgement.

It is also true that the second you die without Christ there is no hope, but you don't know if Christ has or will come to that individual person or how, you don't know what that second of death is, and you don't know if that person will indeed end up accepting Christ and having faith.

Thus we can say nothing at all about particular individual Jews or anybody else going to hell, beyond saying that they must have a faith in Christ to be saved. How they get that faith, how the Holy Spirit creates that faith is not up to us, beyond our role in preaching the Word. We cannot play God with individual souls.

"I can tell a person they are going to hell, as easy as I can tell a person that I know I have eternal life, and that I know for certain that I will spend eternity with Jesus when I die. The Word of God leaves us no uncertainty about these things"

What I was commenting on was this statement. You cannot tell a person that, as you don't know if they will have true faith before the moment of death. In fact go back to Romans 10 and 11. The gentiles were bragging about being saved they were boasting about thier salvation and thier feeling of superiority over the Jews, what does Paul tell them?

"19 You will say then,

[Guest shiloh357]

"I can tell a person they are going to hell, as easy as I can tell a person that I know I have eternal life, and that I know for certain that I will spend eternity with Jesus when I die. The Word of God leaves us no uncertainty about these things"

What I was commenting on was this statement. You cannot tell a person that, as you don't know if they will have true faith before the moment of death. In fact go back to Romans 10 and 11. The gentiles were bragging about being saved they were boasting about thier salvation and thier feeling of superiority over the Jews, what does Paul tell them?

Ah, I see where the problem is. I can see where I was misunderstood. My point, and I guess I failed to make it adequately in that remark, was clarified later. My point is, I can know that if I die right now, I will not spend eternity in hell. I have eternal life today. I can also tell a sinner (Jewish or Gentile) that if they are not born again, and were to die this second, they would enter eternity without the Lord.

It is not a matter of playing God, but it is matter of simply believing what the Bible says. When a person has breathed their last breath, and enter eternity, they will either enter eternity with or without Christ. There will be no second, or last minute chances, no amnesty, no hope for them whatsoever if they leave this world not having made a decision for Christ.

My point has nothing to do with who will, or will not, accept Christ later on down the line before they die.